Topic: Discussion on Models

[[UFP]Exeter]

The thread got a little off topic so made the discussion on modding it own thread.

[intermech]

High quality? Well that dices me out. But I'm curious anyway, what era?

[Starfox1701]

so the dominion got axed?

[Javora]

Playable races are Federation, Romulan, Klingon, Cardassian, pirates and a new race.

Andorian??!?   

[[UFP]Exeter]

Forgot the Dominion.  But if we get the models we can add the race.  The era will depend on the models, if we get the models we can allow selection of era.

Sorry about the high quality, but we want this cutting edge.  A model that is at the limits of MilkShape is probably the minimum.  But you can get a free viewer and see how it looks.

[Starfox1701]

We had this discussion already and I thought that TNG era had been decided both because they Cardassians and Dominion and because that gave the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans the most designs to work with?

Also on the note of Quality we need to develop and deploy a system for both the rigging and LODing of these models and need to decide on a texture format for these models. As far as poly count on ships I think 20k to 30k range for the close mesh. The guys over at BCC are turning out kick butt models in that range. 2048X2048 or 4096X4096 DDS files will probably be good for the textures. I think trying to keep the limit to 3 meshes per LOD should be good too.

[[UFP]Exeter]

I agree TNG is the era of choice.  But if we get the models we can allow a choice of the era.   I would also like to create a POST Dominion war ere, to allow creativity of futuristic models.

But, models are not my area of expertise, and would like someone to hed and coordinate this.   I can provide limitations on what we can do, but the lead on this would make most of the decisions.

Starfox1701, are you interested?

[Starfox1701]

I can build models but I'm not vary good at making textures from scratch. The big problem is that as the programer you need to integrate the stuff for LODs(Levels of Detail) and rigging(all the hardpoints, and damage sprites and/or meshes, break nodes for destroyable components, Name plates, incidental lighting like blinkers, ect...) and inform us how this stuff works so we can construct the models accordingly. We can't build the models and construct the game around them because there are ingame functional aspects defined by the coding. Without them the models are incomplete and not functional. The programing component is completely beyond my skill. I can't make an estimate of the time required to complete the 6 planed races inpart because I do not yet know how much work each ship and station will take because these functions are not yet in place.

On the note of available eras we need to narrow it down to 1 for the time being. Other eras can be integrated as addons or expansion campaigns. If we try to do to much in the beginning it will take to long and will likely lead to loss of team members through exhaustion and loss of interests in a project that has become never ending. It is this kind of thing that has killed many a major mod and other such projects. We need to be sure that our goals are both realistic and attainable. New goals can be added if there is time or can be in expansions if there is interest. After all this will be unpaid work totally dependent one the donation of time by the participants.

But, models are not my area of expertise, and would like someone to head and coordinate this.   I can provide limitations on what we can do, but the lead on this would make most of the decisions. Starfox1701, are you interested?

I could take a stab at it if everyone is OK with that, but there are others in the community that might be better suited if they want they job. I'd at least like the rest of the communities input on this.

[[UFP]Exeter]

I would hope others than can make the models would volunteer.  But as the lead you could coordinate all the effort to make sure we get what we need.

Hot points need to be derminded for each class, how many etc.

For location the information will be stored in the ship date file and  not hard coded into the game or the model.  This will be ot point locations etc. The game will load it all in ahad of time, there will not be database access during combat.

I like the idea of add ons for other era's, so we will focus ont TNG for now.

[Starfox1701]

So what rigging will the models require? How do you plan to handle ship sprites or define the locations of systems or weapons?

[Javora]

Is pneumonic81 still around, I remember him doing some great models...

[Starfox1701]

As far as I know he went pro. Did models for both A2 and Legacy. Have seen anything for years.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Maybe I am missing something, but I see no reason for sprites, other than for ship configuration and that is jsut 2D images.  For torpedoes I would like to also use models, better lighing effects.  I actually have one a friend made for me.

As for defining locations, once the model is built and we ave a size then we determine the locations relative to the center.  We will use the scal of meters, and we have to figure out a scale to pixels on the base screen size.

[Starfox1701]

Certain damage effects and animations like blinking nav lights and plasma leaks would likely still use sprites.

As for defining locations, once the model is built and we ave a size then we determine the locations relative to the center.  We will use the scal of meters, and we have to figure out a scale to pixels on the base screen size.

You know there is an easier way to do that. You place helpers in the mesh and give them name tags. The ship date file references these for things like weapons fire or incoming damage. It is called hardpointing the ship. Can somebody post some pics of what I'm talking about; I'm having problems with my laptop not doing screen shots. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I say rigging a model.

[[UFP]Exeter]

I may be way off here, as I have never done a mode.  But flashing lights, is that not part of the model itself?   And the hardpoints, I know in some games is is part of the model, but if we just have relative positions to the models center will that not work?   plasma leaks and these types of effects I think can be effects, similar to explosions etc.  A particle effect.

My thoughts and I can be way off:  A ship, with a specified hot point, fires a torpedo.  Based on the hot point location the torpedo leaves from that location and heads toward the target.  Once te torpedo hits, there is an explosion, this explosion uses a particle effect.  And the torpedo is a 3D model, not a sprite.

The problem with a sprite is you have to create the bitmaps for the sprite to loop through and they all look the same.  With a particle effect there can be randomness, not all the same.

[Starfox1701]

I may be way off here, as I have never done a mode.  But flashing lights, is that not part of the model itself?   And the hardpoints, I know in some games is is part of the model, but if we just have relative positions to the models center will that not work?   plasma leaks and these types of effects I think can be effects, similar to explosions etc.  A particle effect.

My thoughts and I can be way off:  A ship, with a specified hot point, fires a torpedo.  Based on the hot point location the torpedo leaves from that location and heads toward the target.  Once te torpedo hits, there is an explosion, this explosion uses a particle effect.  And the torpedo is a 3D model, not a sprite.

The problem with a sprite is you have to create the bitmaps for the sprite to loop through and they all look the same.  With a particle effect there can be randomness, not all the same.

Isn't a particle effect just a complex sprite with the animation projected onto tons of particles instead of a 2D billboard? Useing mesh based weapons effects can does provide a more "realistic" effect most of the time. Somethings like TWOK phasers are very hard to replicate mainly because ILM used 2 different effects, 1 for the close shots and a different one for longer shots. However their is a drawback in large battles in that they can quickly use up rending power in the game engine. Is there some way you can prevent that?

On the rest let me get back to you.

[Starfox1701]

Ok let me try this question from a different direction; do you have a graphics engine in mind or are thinking about building on from the ground up?

[[UFP]Exeter]

Irrlicht for graphics
Bullet for physics

[[UFP]Exeter]

I have a question.   I have a 3D model.  Now to get things to work I need bounding body/shape for collision.  How do I determine the size of a model so I can adjust the size if he shape?

[Starfox1701]

I personally don't have any experience with either of these so I have no idea. I.m going to dig around and see what I can learn. Did you consider trying to get permission to use the Evolved engine being developed for ST Excalibur? I am not sure where the are overall but based on the posted progress It is worth looking into.

Look at this stuff and tell me what you think.

Excalibur | Dead in Space

HP Editor - Adding Decals

HP Editor - Update

Texture Coordinate Shifting Nebula

HP Editor Update #3

Launching the Enterprise