Topic: Discussion on Models

[[UFP]Exeter]

For my question I also posted on Irrlicht and Bullet forums and got an answer with sample code.

I do not know about evolve but Bullet is working on employing the GPU for collision, which will really be fast.  I really want this tech.

There is a team working on DX11 drivers for Irrlicht.  I really want this also.

This will move the minimum specs but really boost performance.

[Starfox1701]

We will have to have them as right now the Irrlicht doesn't support .dds files and I'm concerned that even after the 1.9 update it won't handle the correctly. The whole point behind the file format is to run them in the VRAM compressed and it doesn't sound like 1.9 will do that. .TGA and .PNG files eat up tones more VRAM and so are far from idea considering the performance we are aiming for.

Bullet is the same physics package the Excalibur team is using so it should be up to the job here. What ever graphics engine we end up with we will need a model property editor for the modeling team like the one shown in some of the videos I posted. The ability to alter the HPs and light them and test in engine like that will be a huge asset to developing a superior product. It would also make an awesome moding to to go in the final release. might even be able to combine or at the very least derive a map editor and mission builder from it.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Valid points.  Irrlicht does have a scene editor.

Are there better tools on Ogre 3D that would halp?   My biggest concern is everything needs to be in the Ogre proprietary model format and I like the versatility irrlicht has in formats.

DDS is a directx format, why do we need it.  To use it is  pain, I tried it with XNA.

[Starfox1701]

For 1 thing it is the direct X runs them without uncompressed them like it will have to for .PNGs which are an image archive format, not a model texture. .TGAs aren't compressed at all. This means that a 1024X1024 in .DDS will provide the best overall performance and use the least amount of VRAM, roughly a quarter the VRAM of the others, when the game is running. Combine that with the Direct X model format and we should get the best look and speed under load.

I am making inquiries concerning the Evolved Engine and Nano FX GR but haven't heard anything definite one way or the other. Besides Ogre 3D and Irrlicht what other options do we have?

[[UFP]Exeter]

Directx 11.   This gives direct access ans is faster. And if we do DirectX, then we will go straight to 11.   If we did this route, we can look at other code (irrlicht for example) to extract some of the model imports etc.

I will not argue this would be the best way.  Unless we have somebody that already knows DX11, I can take it on as I already started to learn it.  At one point I was considering it.

DX 11 is far superior to DX9.

Disadvantages:  Will take longer to develop.  We are talking about months.

Advantages:  Performs faster than other engines
                   utilizes the expanded features of DX11
                   Graphics are much better

I am not adverse to it, I did not do it before simply because I was working alone.

Ogre and Irrlicht are both working on DX11, but the same person is at the core, and all they are doing is creating drivers, an that is difficult as DX11 s vastly different than DX9.

I use to program DX9, in fact looked at converting CE to DX9.

I would relish doing our own graphics (DX11) and would be able to tightly integrate with Bullet and then we have our own engine.

[Starfox1701]

Considering the performance and lifespan of the product we want Direct X 11 is the best way to go. Time in and of it's self is not an issue. It is better to do it right the first time then to rush and get peoples hopes up and deliver a bad product.

[[UFP]Exeter]

When the decision was made to do irrlicht, I was working along and I had to figure in time to learn to build models etc.  Also at the time I had a constraint, which I no longer do.

So I am fine with going the DX route.  Also, I can integrate the math from Bullet and other useful tidbits.

Take a look at irrlicht and tell me what model formats we should support?  I can take the importers and use them to create our own importers.

Of course if Irrlicht gets DX 11 completed we may go back to it, depending on far we have gotten.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Unity uses a scripting language, like c# or javascript.

While I know c#, it is different.

Also, we would be using the script to make the game engine do what we want.

And will we be able to do what we want on the free version?  We will be limited to what they give us and given the quality we desire I suspect we will need the tools of the Pro Version  ($1500)

Although I know C# I am a C++ programmer.  So if somebody else took over we could use Unity 3D.

I forgot to mention, the scene.  Most engines use a 2D background that may or may not scroll.  Envision our scene to be inside a sphere.  So when you move the camera the background changes.  Move it 360 degrees and you are back to the same location.  Very realistic.  This is implemented and working.  I think I tried this in Unity, Ogres, XNA etc and did not work easily.  I was able to get it to work easily in Irrlicht.  As Irrlicht is Dx bases, it can be done in DX.

[Starfox1701]

When the decision was made to do irrlicht, I was working along and I had to figure in time to learn to build models etc.  Also at the time I had a constraint, which I no longer do.

So I am fine with going the DX route.  Also, I can integrate the math from Bullet and other useful tidbits.

Take a look at irrlicht and tell me what model formats we should support?  I can take the importers and use them to create our own importers.

Of course if Irrlicht gets DX 11 completed we may go back to it, depending on far we have gotten.

Right now I'm leaning toward .X format since it will run so well with Direct X. We will probably need importers and exporters for the version of .X we use for 3DS Max, Milkshape, Blender, and Maya as these are the most commonly used modeling programs around here.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Irrlicht is Direct x and will run on OpenGL, so any models need to be converted into .x format or it write to the hardware directly, which I doubt.

But if we can get all the models we need looking good and in .x format I am fine with it.

And unity supports .FBX, .OBJ, .MAX and blender.

Personally, if we can support .X, >FBX, and 3DS it would be great, and maybe milkshape.

[Starfox1701]

The other file that's got me interested is COLLADA .dea files. These are the ones Excalibur is using but I  don't know that much about them except that they seam to be gaining in popularity in the gaming industry and are open source. What do you know about them?

[[UFP]Exeter]

I still do not understand why games use Collada.  For development, the advantage is it is a format that works between tools.  But it is a xml schema.  My suspicion is the loading is slower than a binary.  The only way to tell is create a model in another format and collada and compare.  I did that using the Irrlicht mesh viewer demo and found out how slow OBJ format is.

We can use most any format, my preference is it is a format that irrlicht supports, as i have a c/c++ importer to examine.

I have some prebuild non trek model I bought that can be for other races.  And two very large models to use for the larger ships of the new villain.    They are huge and OBJ format.  Slow to load but I plan on models being all reloaded before tactical starts.


On another note:  Part of the issue trying to update EAW (CE) was so many thrid party libraries were no source and we could not update or change.  In order to make a game that we can maintain and upgrade as we choose, requires us to have full source.   I do not see this as negotiable.  Unity does not include source without lots of cash.  So it is out.

[[UFP]Exeter]

I can take a stab at DX11.  I will only put in what we need.  But I will put it in as a library so we can expand it later.  And Strat may remember I had wanted to replace the code in CE to use DX 11.

But my concern is we are expanding the scope and dramatically increasing the work required to do this.  In progress, and I have seen the code, is dx11 drivers for Irrlicht.  It works but there are some issues with scenes that needs to be resolved.  I would hope it to finish this year.

I do not mind but currently we do not have any other coders.  I like coding in C++, so I will take the time, but the question:  Do we want to pissibly delay by 6 months?  But if we can create better interfaces for realistic models and gaming, then it is worth it.

[Starfox1701]

What will happen in 6 months?

[[UFP]Exeter]

I will have to learn DX11 as it is vastly different than DX9.  On my to do list but not there.

Then build our 3D graphics in DX11.

Maybe Irrlicht will have the DX11 driver finished.  However, they started this 3 years ago so who knows.  In the forums it is estimated it is 90% done.

I was working on integrating the physics, but I just realized if I focus on DX 11  when it is done, Bullet she be to version 3, and debugged, with the GPU support.

Question:  While I am working on DX, can we proceed with the models we need?  Also we can design in things needed for them.

[Starfox1701]

Well We still don't have a modeling staff yet so I don't think concentrating on DX11 will hold up the process any. Go for it.

[[UFP]Exeter]

I will archive what I have them go from there.  What I am thinking is an api similar to irrlicht and then I implement what we need. 

Irrlicht has a mesh viewer, I will use that with our new graphics as a way to test and load models.

[Starfox1701]

Do you think the model viewer can be turned into property editor or will that need to be done from the ground up?

[[UFP]Exeter]

Not sure, as it will load and display models using the irrlicht engine, there is no provision for saving anything.  Most property editors I am aware of are unique to their model type.

To do one will take a knowledge of Models and C++ and DX11 (or other).

It would be awhile but we could use the model viewer as a basis as I mention but build it into a property editor.  And only support the model types decided on.

[Starfox1701]

So that's going to have to wait till the engine is further along and more stuff is implamented