Topic: Starfleet Command 4 Development

[TAnimaL]

Oh Adam, you make me laugh.

In the broad strokes, I completely agree with both Mohab and Lt Q as being two sides of the same coin. I see no reason to maintain fealty to SFU, especially if that is going to cause endless problems. What is done officially under the Dynaverse's SFC4 needs to be it's own thing, and any similarity to SFU should be just because both things are based on Star Trek. Personally, I have no burning desire to see the Andromedans, (or Jindarans, FRAX, ISC or any other purely SFU creations) in a new game. That said, if anyone else does want to see those things, and creates a mod on their own, Dynaverse is hardly responsible. Two examples:

-several modelers have created entire fleets of "Star Wars" ships,  now owned by Disney, and I could convert a race ini SFC into the "Rebel Alliance/Empire". Paramount licensed Star Trek to Taldren for the SFC game series. Neither Paramount or Taldren (rip) could be held responsible by Disney for me using these models on my computer, as long as I'm not charging anyone for it. Disney could go after the modeler who made them, but if they aren't charging for it, they probably won't.

-over the years, many fan-made websites have popped up with "Ship System Displays" or SSDs for SFB. In the past 10 years, ADB has required these fans to agree to what amounts to a ELUA about what is posted for free online. No official ADB SSDs can be online, and any fan-made SSDs must be clearly identified as such. Any one not in compliance is sent a "cease-and -desist" letter from ADB.

As I see it, we all agree in this thread. Personally, I am so done with ADB I don't really care about seeing those things in SFC4. By all means, let's distance ourselves from SFU. As long as we, the players, can mod the ships and weapons (the Holy Grail of modding), we should all be happy. Most of the suggestions Czar Mohab said are somewhat interesting to me, so if later on, someone creates a invading fleet with "ship-sized transporters," it doesn't reflect on the "official" SFC4 game.

addendum to my Disney/Star Wars example. My son literally just got back from a Comic Con, where he went to find a "Star Wars/Dr Who" mashup t-shirt like his friend got there last year. The t-shirt makers, individual artists selling tees, told him that since Disney bought Star Wars, they couldn't make those anymore. Disney has an very agressive copyright protection stance.

I was only teasing you Adam. ADB, specifically Steve Cole, has made it clear that he feels that ADB is still owed money from the first 3 Starfleet Command games, and would not license SFU to a new game without that being addressed, and future compensation to be safeguarded. Lt Q is right, let's try to avoid SFU in 4.

[knightstorm]

Could we adopt the ruleset from a different naval wargame since $VC isn't willing to play ball?

[Starfox1701]

Why do we need to adopt the rule of a table top game for a 3D video game?

[Captain Adam]

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[knightstorm]

Why do we need to adopt the rule of a table top game for a 3D video game?

Its having the feel of a table top wargame that makes it SFC.  SFC3 lost this, and that's why its an unenjoyable POS.

[Captain Adam]

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[Javora]

I second that. I really disliked SFC3. It somehow lost its appeal. Funny how that happened. I can add any futuristic ship in SFC1/2EAW/2OP and I love it, SFC3 has Warp, better impulses, reverse impulse, different firing rates, better maps and still it's like ehhhh, blahhhhh.
Well I would stay better but you get what I mean. It was a dud, indeed POS. Not too mention the turn feature was completely and utter embarrassment. How can a ship turn left to right and visa versa like that. It's awful.
Hope this new project brings out the best in all our creative minds. Completely redesigned and 100% better.


Adam

IMHO SFC 3 also lost plasma, missiles, and of course scatter packs.  The accompanying tactics that were also lost made SFC 3 boring.  Problem is you can't have those things I listed and have warp as well.  Had SFC 3 kept out warp drive but left in everything else from SFC OP it would have been a killer game.

[Captain Adam]

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[Starfox1701]

When you guy talk about warp drive I take it you don't mean warp power. I never played SFC3 so please elaborate.

[knightstorm]

When you guy talk about warp drive I take it you don't mean warp power. I never played SFC3 so please elaborate.

In SFC3, you can jump to warp speed by hitting the W key.

IMHO SFC 3 also lost plasma, missiles, and of course scatter packs.  The accompanying tactics that were also lost made SFC 3 boring.  Problem is you can't have those things I listed and have warp as well.

Actually you probably could.  All you'd need to do is make the ship roll for a system breakdown like you do when it makes a HET.

[Starfox1701]

How much faster are we talking?

[Czar Mohab]

SFC3 did have a few good points though - editable ships, selectable crews (although SFC1 did this better), and that annoying yet awesome "please go to sector umpty-scratch to do some weird mission" pop-up warning. The pop-up warning actually gave me an awesome idea:

Since we have the opportunity why not adjust the mission selection abilities for 4 to be more... Trekish. 2 just told you that you can't move until you do or forfeit the mission in your hex. 3 told you to go to that hex then gave you the same options. I understand that occasionally you'll be out doing nothing and then get the call to do something from your HQ, but realistically, even when you are out doing nothing, you'd be doing what HQ told you to do.

4 should let you see what missions are available for you within your empire (general missions such as border patrols, convoy escorts, sector scans, etc.) no matter where you are on the strategic map (for example, deep in enemy territory). This should also show what special (e.g. story or campaign) missions are available regardless of location (your HQ knows that you'll need to go to Sector X to do the mission); these missions would still get the annoying pop-up, "Please review your available missions before moving". Finally, you'd be able to also select from a list of "pick up" missions, missions that are only available because you are wherever you are on the map, within a reasonable distance based on ship class owned (for example a frigate would be 1 Hex Equivalent radial distance while a cruiser would be 3 HE). These pick-up missions may be directed by HQ (attack targets of opportunity while "out there") or something that the captain does on a whim while within the bounds of his/her overall mission goal (scan that planet while "out there").

These missions can be reviewed from your current location (organizable by priority, distance, etc.) the same way one would look for missions in 2 (select the "mission" button). New missions (since you last looked at them) should be highlighted such that they are easier to see. Missions should be able to be accepted or rejected regardless of locatiion (ignoring a mission (neither accepting nor rejecting) should be possible except for story/campaign missions). Each mission should have a "lifetime" - a set time to start the mission before it expires. Further, the expiration date should be slightly extended if the mission is accepted from a distance; however, missing the mission's start time once accepted should be penalized by loss of SFC4's Prestige Equivalent. Loss of PE should also be implemented for rejecting missions outright.

Story/Campaign missions should have the longest timer (~1.5x the amount of time it would take to get to the mission's location, to allow for stopping to resupply or snagging a few easy missions along the way). General missions (the patrols and what-nots) should have a set timer, either you get to them or you don't. Finally, the pick-up missions would have the duration of exactly how long it would take to get to that location without stopping for anything, plus just enough time to find that mission in the mission list (~30 seconds real time seems fair). The "bonus" time added to any mission accepted from far far away should be the amount of time to move 1 HE towards the location of the mission for every 10 HE you are away.

All of the missions should be within the scope of an overall mission (example: Kirk's 5 year mission, go forth and explore stuff) set for a given empire within a given political environment (such as peace time or war time). This overall mission should go hand in hand with the available story/campaign.

The Czar

P.S.

How much faster are we talking?

Similar to going to warp in Armada/Armada 2 for speed. Could get you out of trouble reasonably quick, or cross the map without much time wasted. Particularly useful in convoy raids (warp to a freighter, decel and Alpha, warp out to pull defender away while weapons recharge, then repeat with next freighter...). See this video for warpage and reverse impulse.

Starfleet Command 3: Defiant vs Enterprise E

[Starfox1701]

Not really liking that. If warp jumping is included I don't think it should be that simple. Their should be some kind of delay before engaging and I think you should need to set a course to some object. There should also be some kind of power requirement that prevents it's use if you are using to much power or have taken heavy power system damage and a decent recharge time and maybe even a chance of breakdown. Just pushing a button and popping out of weapons range is total BS. Missile and torpedo speeds should be high enough to pursue over short range or engage if the target is closing at warp. Might even have advanced weapons with the ability to jump to warp to pursue at the cost of range. Normal Photorps can't do that.

[TAnimaL]

I dunno, I disagree. The ability to "warp away" out of danger is pretty established in Trek. Maybe not an instantaneous "pushing a button = warp 6," something with a few second delay. (That actually sort of ret-cons why we the viewers never saw "missiles" and "drones" on screen.) It was also established during wargames in "Peak Performance" that warping into and out of battle is standard tactics. (That was also the only episode where someone said the phrase "Star Fleet Battles"). Turning on your warp probably cancels out a lot of power expenditures for weapons, and using warp into battle means you've got to re-arm, but that leads to some different tactical situations than SFB.

[Starfox1701]

What specifically are you disagreeing with?

[Captain Adam]

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[Czar Mohab]

SFC3 warping lowered the shields and, iirc, prevented the warping ship from firing. Do not recall what else it "disabled" on the warping ship, but the intent was yes you can warp when you like but you risk putting yourself in a tactical disadvantage until you were clear of the other guy's weapons. Unfortunately, SFC3 ships were excessively "buff" when compared to their SFC 1 & 2 counterparts. I'd say 8 of 10 times the enemy ship would go boom before losing major components to damage, where in 1 & 2 the enemy was more or less stripped and crushed, perhaps even being super stubborn in becoming dead, before the boom.

[...]You get those annoying people that would warp in and out so many times and would refuse to fight. It was irritating.[...]

Adam

In SFC3, let them warp to you, take their "attack" such as it was and Alpha as soon as you can as soon as they go to warp and their shields drop. Its only theory though. Never MP'd 3. Quit MP'ing in OP when I made too many people rage-quit when I would use tactics other than "close and crunch". Lost all interest in going against the quitters. Not my fault that they couldn't adapt to anything other than that. Sabre Dancing FTW!

The Czar

[[UFP]Exeter]

So fr for SFC4, warping can be done anytime, but given the velocity of warp, you drop out and you will not be in range to continue combat.

As for a rule set, we are making our own.  I played SFB when it first came out, and have been playing combat board and computer games it seems like forever.  At dome point we wll test the rule set.  As for ADB, ther tactics are interesting.  We will use nothing from them.  Our universe will be by the series and movies.  We will not even use a race from SFB. 

A question was asked what to study up on.  In other threads we have had discussion.  Our engine will handle many model types, bur for our purposes the official models will be in.x format.  And the textures in DDS,  compression 5.   We will probably use angelscript for the scripting language.  And for some effects we will write our own shaders, shader 4.  Our graphics Engine is Irrlicht, is is right now DX9 only but the DX11 conversion is well along.

[TAnimaL]

Sorry, I was just reacting to:

Just pushing a button and popping out of weapons range is total BS. Missile and torpedo speeds should be high enough to pursue over short range or engage if the target is closing at warp.

Rereading what you wrote Starfox, I think we agree more than not, but I do think that going to warp (somewhat) quickly is a Trek-tactic and I wouldn't mind seeing it in 4 (never having played SFC3). Point of compromise - since sublight combat is probably at less than 25% c, and if "warp evading" is at WF3+, going to warp should put you on the far side of the map quickly, and warping into cobat might  be hard to "stop on a dime" right at your opponent. I know this might be getting ahead of ourselves design-wise, just sharing a thought.

[Czar Mohab]

[...] and warping into cobat might  be hard to "stop on a dime" right at your opponent. [...]

See Picard Maneuver.

[...]As for a rule set, we are making our own. [...]

This I was hoping for.

The Czar