Topic: Starfleet Command 4 Development

[[UFP]Exeter]

I am proud to announce the development of a SFC4 game has officially begun.

1.  We are working on the overall design.  Discussions in these forums will be considered and added to the design.  The initial design will be frozen at a future point, then any other changes will be logged for a future release.  Unless it is critical, of course.

2.  Although a schedule will be forthcoming, it is dependent on those that volunteer to help.  If we get the help we can finish it late this year, early next year.

3.  The developer sub-forum is a private forum for developers to communicate, we will be posting regular updates and try to answer questions as promptly as possible.

4.  We have a help want section to post our needs. but if you have skills or wish to help in some way, please PM me or post in these forums.

5.   Although this effor officially start now, the code base we will use, the game engine, has been under development for some time and is expected to finish next month.

This is a community effort, we invite your input. 

The development effort has officially started!

[d4v1ks]

Will you provide any details about the design you are going to implement in the initial phase of the project?
I'm curious on the work that you and strat (and/or) frey will do.
Despite being a "community project", it seems like a very closed project with respect to the programming.
You have "build" a framework to use for the SFC4 project (c++, Irrlicht Engine, raknet, sql, AngelScript, etc).
But beside that have no ideia on what you plan to do.
How will you implement the artificial inteligence? What are the ships capabilities? How the weapons will work? Will it have to manage systems resources like in SFB? How will it decide who to attack, how, find its path, or its strategic position when moving after someone and attacking? Will the computer entities cooperate between them? Will it be hable to understand their current state and react accordingly? how you plan to make the IA challenging? its not a easy task

[d4v1ks]

For example, having so many ships designs and weapons configurations how you plan to code it? Have you thought on a way to abstract those configurations to use a single IA engine? How will you initially test and balance it? Will you run simulations or do everything manually on a trial and error scheme?

[[UFP]Exeter]

I will try and answer all the questions.

I have been working on this for over a year, and discussion with Frey decided to try and utilize what I had done.  This includes a design.  Frey is reviewing this and based upon other thread conversations I am taking notes to add to the design.

Frey is more administration for this.  An example communicating with ADB,to see if we can use SFB dynamics in the code.  He will also lead the effort to get CBS approval once we are ready.

I worked with Strat in the CE upgrade, but as of this time he has not committed to anything on this project.

As for this being a closed project, there are some concerns.  To protect the code and maintain progress we are doing things a little differently.  There is the lead developer, me, and I will oversea all the work and ensure we do not use anything from SFB.  Also, to get the best protection of the code, we will use the Trade Secret protection of the United States.  Portions of our code will fall under this.   This also protects us from someone wanting to review our code to see IF we infringe on their copyright.  So this means anyone having access to the code will be subject to a Nondisclosure Agreement (NDA).

Much of the design will be posted in public once all the new details are finished.  The full design will be in the developer are.

As for AI not real desing work has been done on that.  But I have some ideas.  True it is not easy.  O have some knowledge.  My masters thesis was on implementing rule based AI in computer cgames and did some graduate research with Dr Bobby, a researcher in Neural Net AI.

The weapons specs will be stored in an SQL Encrypted database.  The game will read this data in when a ship is upgraded, created etc.  That way we can add/modify weapons and ship data without recoding the game.  During design testing, the database will not be encrypted to allow changing values by the testers. 

The initial values are based on some math, and then sanity checks.  Also, I gather as much "real" data as possible, for example the ranges of some weapons in Star Trek.  We will use these real values but have them scaled down for the game.   In this area SFB is refined but arbitrary, but we could use it if we get permission.

[d4v1ks]

This remenbered me something. In combat flight simulator, for example, we had the oportunity to build external IA agents (through the "Flight Simulator Universal Inter-Process Communication"). The concept was very easy. Maybe you can adopt a similar aprouch. People could create and update/inprove IA over time without hurt the main game development. Would be like creating a chess engine based in a determined protocol. You could even join human/IA  under the same hood. Just treat and give them the same things (access to enviromental and system informations, and control of the ship).

[[UFP]Exeter]

An interesting idea.

[Captain Adam]

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[maelstorm]

I am curious what races will be in/out.  or be predominatnly played (i've been dying to blow up and use andromedan dominators and some of their ships).

also i have a few ideas for a campaing but i have absolutely no clue how to program   thinking of an outline/tree where you start as a race of your choice and do a few random missions as you learn to play again (noobs need to learn), Then the breadcrumbs for the main campaing lead in.  andromedans show up.   you do your best to earn your enemy's trust because eveyrone will be needed to fight them off.  then a few missions will expose a hidden alliance that is working with them to make every faction weaker.   pirates happen  civil war breaks out .. everything starts to look glum and it's up to you to fix things and take the fight back to the andromedans.

[Starfox1701]

Whether or not a race like the Andro can be included in a future expansion will in part be determined by weather or not we are able to charge for the game or not. If we get a ST license then we won't be able to do them and they will have to be modded in because of the IP issues with ADB.

On the mission scripting side their is a discussion on therad in the scripting tread.

[Czar Mohab]

Whether or not a race like the Andro can be included in a future expansion will in part be determined by weather or not we are able to charge for the game or not. If we get a ST license then we won't be able to do them and they will have to be modded in because of the IP issues with ADB.

On the mission scripting side their is a discussion on therad in the scripting tread.

Easy fix - since you'd need the OK from Paramount/CBS et al, for the game itself anyway... just call the Andromedans "Kelvans" as that is canon to TOS ("By Any Other Name"). Keep the background more or less the same and tweak the ships just enough...

You remember the Kelvans, right? The race of individuals that are escaping some bad juju things that are going on in the Andromeda Galaxy? The Kelvans (in BAON) were advanced scouts looking for a place for their people to settle (through conquest) after they left the home galaxy... Eventually there would be lots and lots of them.

SVC's SFB Andromedans are based, more or less, on TOS's Kelvans... Its just the Kelvans were heading back to Andromeda to let the other Kelvans know what these Kelvans found... ~600 years round trip - SFB Andromedans are just about 590 years faster than that; but that does not mean that other TOS Kelvans didn't make it "there and back" just as fast...

The Czar

P.S. I did do some canon-based research into this: it is theoretically possible (assuming everything in this fantasy land is "real, of course ) that the Kelvans sent a subspace message back to Andromeda (~50 years to get there, based on TNG: Where No One Has Gone Before - yeah they went to the Triangulum Galaxy but its actually further from there to here than Andromeda to here so...); further, in BOAN, the Kelvans had to modify the E to get the 300 year speed - in WNOHGB the E-D can already make the 300 year trip as built. We can assume that the Andromeda based Kelvans, over the course of 50 years or so before they get the message, are busy making their ships faster (as we did between original E and E-D). We can also assume that once they get the "come invade these guys" message, everything gets dumped into research to make their ships cross the void as fast as possible, then they leave to invade with just enough time to show up in our galaxy, say, just in time for SCF4... Every SFC fan that wanted the Andromedan invasion get what they've been asking for, in the Post era... Win-Win.

[TAnimaL]

All that can work; these "Kelvans" will just have to be designed to avoid any similarities to SFB Andromedans, meaning no satellite ships, power absorbers, TR beams, displacement device, etc.

[Captain Adam]

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[maelstorm]

i couldn't resist.. not ripping on anyone lol

I guess i'll just have to wait on a mod for it to happen.

[Captain Adam]

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[Starfox1701]

That was kind of my point. With that race what people want is the SFB Andros. without a separate license for SFU stuff the race we come up with based on the old fluff would have to be completely different.

[TAnimaL]

but I like the "old fluff!"

Of course, what people choose to add in a mod not officially released by "SFC4" is entirely their own business....

And, of course, as you proved with the Kelvans, there are plenty of canon alternative technologies that involve different shield configurations, or different stardrive principles that "transport" entire ships, and so forth.

[TheStressPuppy]

The Kelvins did have much faster warp drive tech as evidenced by the big-E's modification for the journey back to Andromeda. However their ships "shields" couldn't handle the energy of the barrier, and crippled their ship. They are more advanced than the feds in some areas, and weaker in others. Artistic License will have to be used to "fill in the gaps". Basically just make it up as you go.

[Czar Mohab]

All that can work; these "Kelvans" will just have to be designed to avoid any similarities to SFB Andromedans,...

True. Pretty sure we're doing something similar anyway with all the other ships and races when compared to their SFB counterparts, so... Shouldn't be too hard.

...meaning no satellite ships,...

Use runabout class vessels. Lots of them. Some bigger, some smaller. All called "Runabouts". It'll be close enough.

...power absorbers, TR beams,...

Give them shields instead. Combine the PAs and the TRs into a Power Absorbing Beam. It leaches power from the target to do whatever the Kelvan ship would need it for. For fun, give the Kelvans the ability to "fast charge" their phaser equivalent weapons at 2x cost - the extra cost can come from a bank of batteries that can be recharged by using the PABs.

...displacement device,...

Its just a transporter with a fancy name...

...etc.

There is actually quite a lot to cover here.

Auxiliary ships can just be a mix of specialized "Runabouts" and captured Milky Way equivalents. They wouldn't have the production base to build their new empire right off the bat and would need to "borrow" some things anyway - and why scrap an otherwise useful vessel? I actually see the borrowed ships in use until the end.

A base is a base is a base. Realistically they would just be in need of a good, original model. The "guts" would be similar to their ships in terms of components and similar to MWG equivalents in amounts.

The Temporal Elevator would be tricky, but not impossible. Rename it first off. I honestly can't think of anything right now. Second, the effect does not move the base (or anything in the elevator's hex) "up" or "down" but rather just barely forwards or backwards in time. Like 0.1 seconds or something. See TNG: Time's Arrow.

Definitely want to make the models of the ships look like SFB Andromedans without actually making them look like SFB Andromedans. Something of a cross between original and an homage.

The Operation Unity campaign was done, more or less and slightly differently, in SFC3. Would not be too hard to borrow something similar while keeping it original.

I miss anything?

The Czar

P.S. It is fitting that the Kelvans appear in the episode By Any Other Name. If its handled correctly, it will be Andormedans, just by another name.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Here's the problem I see with this:

This, and any other venture is done under the auspices of Dynaverse.net, is being done to avoid references to SFU because of the money that ADB would demand for use of said references.  Now everyone says that, hey let's release something that doesn't use SFU material, and just mod SFU stuff in.  Well... the mod would be made by people here at Dynaverse.net, ADB could claim that even though it is a "mod" it was still done by people at Dynaverse, and question whether or not Dynaverse was operating in good faith when they claim that there's nothing in the "official" release that uses SFU material.

I hate to keep beating a dead horse here, but the people constantly harping for a game based on SFU/SFB, its going to unravel in the end, unless those same people are willing to shell out the money that ADB wants for licensing.  Is a game based on SFB going to be a better game?  Probably, it's got nearly 40 years of playtesting behind it.  But is that game realistic?  No.  It's not going to happen, and modding a game to be like it is bound to have a mess of legal trouble.  Let the people do what they can, let's see what they can come up with.  I have faith in the people here to come up with a superb game, and I have faith in the people here to play test it to death, and turn it into a great game.  We don't need or want the headache that comes with using SFU material, or even trying to mirror it.  Simply changing names is not enough to avoid copyright lawsuits, as Harmony Gold/FASA proved about 20 years ago.

[Captain Adam]

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[TAnimaL]

Oh Adam, you make me laugh.

In the broad strokes, I completely agree with both Mohab and Lt Q as being two sides of the same coin. I see no reason to maintain fealty to SFU, especially if that is going to cause endless problems. What is done officially under the Dynaverse's SFC4 needs to be it's own thing, and any similarity to SFU should be just because both things are based on Star Trek. Personally, I have no burning desire to see the Andromedans, (or Jindarans, FRAX, ISC or any other purely SFU creations) in a new game. That said, if anyone else does want to see those things, and creates a mod on their own, Dynaverse is hardly responsible. Two examples:

-several modelers have created entire fleets of "Star Wars" ships,  now owned by Disney, and I could convert a race ini SFC into the "Rebel Alliance/Empire". Paramount licensed Star Trek to Taldren for the SFC game series. Neither Paramount or Taldren (rip) could be held responsible by Disney for me using these models on my computer, as long as I'm not charging anyone for it. Disney could go after the modeler who made them, but if they aren't charging for it, they probably won't.

-over the years, many fan-made websites have popped up with "Ship System Displays" or SSDs for SFB. In the past 10 years, ADB has required these fans to agree to what amounts to a ELUA about what is posted for free online. No official ADB SSDs can be online, and any fan-made SSDs must be clearly identified as such. Any one not in compliance is sent a "cease-and -desist" letter from ADB.

As I see it, we all agree in this thread. Personally, I am so done with ADB I don't really care about seeing those things in SFC4. By all means, let's distance ourselves from SFU. As long as we, the players, can mod the ships and weapons (the Holy Grail of modding), we should all be happy. Most of the suggestions Czar Mohab said are somewhat interesting to me, so if later on, someone creates a invading fleet with "ship-sized transporters," it doesn't reflect on the "official" SFC4 game.

addendum to my Disney/Star Wars example. My son literally just got back from a Comic Con, where he went to find a "Star Wars/Dr Who" mashup t-shirt like his friend got there last year. The t-shirt makers, individual artists selling tees, told him that since Disney bought Star Wars, they couldn't make those anymore. Disney has an very agressive copyright protection stance.

I was only teasing you Adam. ADB, specifically Steve Cole, has made it clear that he feels that ADB is still owed money from the first 3 Starfleet Command games, and would not license SFU to a new game without that being addressed, and future compensation to be safeguarded. Lt Q is right, let's try to avoid SFU in 4.

[knightstorm]

Could we adopt the ruleset from a different naval wargame since $VC isn't willing to play ball?

[Starfox1701]

Why do we need to adopt the rule of a table top game for a 3D video game?

[Captain Adam]

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[knightstorm]

Why do we need to adopt the rule of a table top game for a 3D video game?

Its having the feel of a table top wargame that makes it SFC.  SFC3 lost this, and that's why its an unenjoyable POS.

[Captain Adam]

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[Javora]

I second that. I really disliked SFC3. It somehow lost its appeal. Funny how that happened. I can add any futuristic ship in SFC1/2EAW/2OP and I love it, SFC3 has Warp, better impulses, reverse impulse, different firing rates, better maps and still it's like ehhhh, blahhhhh.
Well I would stay better but you get what I mean. It was a dud, indeed POS. Not too mention the turn feature was completely and utter embarrassment. How can a ship turn left to right and visa versa like that. It's awful.
Hope this new project brings out the best in all our creative minds. Completely redesigned and 100% better.


Adam

IMHO SFC 3 also lost plasma, missiles, and of course scatter packs.  The accompanying tactics that were also lost made SFC 3 boring.  Problem is you can't have those things I listed and have warp as well.  Had SFC 3 kept out warp drive but left in everything else from SFC OP it would have been a killer game.

[Captain Adam]

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[Starfox1701]

When you guy talk about warp drive I take it you don't mean warp power. I never played SFC3 so please elaborate.

[knightstorm]

When you guy talk about warp drive I take it you don't mean warp power. I never played SFC3 so please elaborate.

In SFC3, you can jump to warp speed by hitting the W key.

IMHO SFC 3 also lost plasma, missiles, and of course scatter packs.  The accompanying tactics that were also lost made SFC 3 boring.  Problem is you can't have those things I listed and have warp as well.

Actually you probably could.  All you'd need to do is make the ship roll for a system breakdown like you do when it makes a HET.

[Starfox1701]

How much faster are we talking?

[Czar Mohab]

SFC3 did have a few good points though - editable ships, selectable crews (although SFC1 did this better), and that annoying yet awesome "please go to sector umpty-scratch to do some weird mission" pop-up warning. The pop-up warning actually gave me an awesome idea:

Since we have the opportunity why not adjust the mission selection abilities for 4 to be more... Trekish. 2 just told you that you can't move until you do or forfeit the mission in your hex. 3 told you to go to that hex then gave you the same options. I understand that occasionally you'll be out doing nothing and then get the call to do something from your HQ, but realistically, even when you are out doing nothing, you'd be doing what HQ told you to do.

4 should let you see what missions are available for you within your empire (general missions such as border patrols, convoy escorts, sector scans, etc.) no matter where you are on the strategic map (for example, deep in enemy territory). This should also show what special (e.g. story or campaign) missions are available regardless of location (your HQ knows that you'll need to go to Sector X to do the mission); these missions would still get the annoying pop-up, "Please review your available missions before moving". Finally, you'd be able to also select from a list of "pick up" missions, missions that are only available because you are wherever you are on the map, within a reasonable distance based on ship class owned (for example a frigate would be 1 Hex Equivalent radial distance while a cruiser would be 3 HE). These pick-up missions may be directed by HQ (attack targets of opportunity while "out there") or something that the captain does on a whim while within the bounds of his/her overall mission goal (scan that planet while "out there").

These missions can be reviewed from your current location (organizable by priority, distance, etc.) the same way one would look for missions in 2 (select the "mission" button). New missions (since you last looked at them) should be highlighted such that they are easier to see. Missions should be able to be accepted or rejected regardless of locatiion (ignoring a mission (neither accepting nor rejecting) should be possible except for story/campaign missions). Each mission should have a "lifetime" - a set time to start the mission before it expires. Further, the expiration date should be slightly extended if the mission is accepted from a distance; however, missing the mission's start time once accepted should be penalized by loss of SFC4's Prestige Equivalent. Loss of PE should also be implemented for rejecting missions outright.

Story/Campaign missions should have the longest timer (~1.5x the amount of time it would take to get to the mission's location, to allow for stopping to resupply or snagging a few easy missions along the way). General missions (the patrols and what-nots) should have a set timer, either you get to them or you don't. Finally, the pick-up missions would have the duration of exactly how long it would take to get to that location without stopping for anything, plus just enough time to find that mission in the mission list (~30 seconds real time seems fair). The "bonus" time added to any mission accepted from far far away should be the amount of time to move 1 HE towards the location of the mission for every 10 HE you are away.

All of the missions should be within the scope of an overall mission (example: Kirk's 5 year mission, go forth and explore stuff) set for a given empire within a given political environment (such as peace time or war time). This overall mission should go hand in hand with the available story/campaign.

The Czar

P.S.

How much faster are we talking?

Similar to going to warp in Armada/Armada 2 for speed. Could get you out of trouble reasonably quick, or cross the map without much time wasted. Particularly useful in convoy raids (warp to a freighter, decel and Alpha, warp out to pull defender away while weapons recharge, then repeat with next freighter...). See this video for warpage and reverse impulse.

Starfleet Command 3: Defiant vs Enterprise E

[Starfox1701]

Not really liking that. If warp jumping is included I don't think it should be that simple. Their should be some kind of delay before engaging and I think you should need to set a course to some object. There should also be some kind of power requirement that prevents it's use if you are using to much power or have taken heavy power system damage and a decent recharge time and maybe even a chance of breakdown. Just pushing a button and popping out of weapons range is total BS. Missile and torpedo speeds should be high enough to pursue over short range or engage if the target is closing at warp. Might even have advanced weapons with the ability to jump to warp to pursue at the cost of range. Normal Photorps can't do that.

[TAnimaL]

I dunno, I disagree. The ability to "warp away" out of danger is pretty established in Trek. Maybe not an instantaneous "pushing a button = warp 6," something with a few second delay. (That actually sort of ret-cons why we the viewers never saw "missiles" and "drones" on screen.) It was also established during wargames in "Peak Performance" that warping into and out of battle is standard tactics. (That was also the only episode where someone said the phrase "Star Fleet Battles"). Turning on your warp probably cancels out a lot of power expenditures for weapons, and using warp into battle means you've got to re-arm, but that leads to some different tactical situations than SFB.

[Starfox1701]

What specifically are you disagreeing with?

[Captain Adam]

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[Czar Mohab]

SFC3 warping lowered the shields and, iirc, prevented the warping ship from firing. Do not recall what else it "disabled" on the warping ship, but the intent was yes you can warp when you like but you risk putting yourself in a tactical disadvantage until you were clear of the other guy's weapons. Unfortunately, SFC3 ships were excessively "buff" when compared to their SFC 1 & 2 counterparts. I'd say 8 of 10 times the enemy ship would go boom before losing major components to damage, where in 1 & 2 the enemy was more or less stripped and crushed, perhaps even being super stubborn in becoming dead, before the boom.

[...]You get those annoying people that would warp in and out so many times and would refuse to fight. It was irritating.[...]

Adam

In SFC3, let them warp to you, take their "attack" such as it was and Alpha as soon as you can as soon as they go to warp and their shields drop. Its only theory though. Never MP'd 3. Quit MP'ing in OP when I made too many people rage-quit when I would use tactics other than "close and crunch". Lost all interest in going against the quitters. Not my fault that they couldn't adapt to anything other than that. Sabre Dancing FTW!

The Czar

[[UFP]Exeter]

So fr for SFC4, warping can be done anytime, but given the velocity of warp, you drop out and you will not be in range to continue combat.

As for a rule set, we are making our own.  I played SFB when it first came out, and have been playing combat board and computer games it seems like forever.  At dome point we wll test the rule set.  As for ADB, ther tactics are interesting.  We will use nothing from them.  Our universe will be by the series and movies.  We will not even use a race from SFB. 

A question was asked what to study up on.  In other threads we have had discussion.  Our engine will handle many model types, bur for our purposes the official models will be in.x format.  And the textures in DDS,  compression 5.   We will probably use angelscript for the scripting language.  And for some effects we will write our own shaders, shader 4.  Our graphics Engine is Irrlicht, is is right now DX9 only but the DX11 conversion is well along.

[TAnimaL]

Sorry, I was just reacting to:

Just pushing a button and popping out of weapons range is total BS. Missile and torpedo speeds should be high enough to pursue over short range or engage if the target is closing at warp.

Rereading what you wrote Starfox, I think we agree more than not, but I do think that going to warp (somewhat) quickly is a Trek-tactic and I wouldn't mind seeing it in 4 (never having played SFC3). Point of compromise - since sublight combat is probably at less than 25% c, and if "warp evading" is at WF3+, going to warp should put you on the far side of the map quickly, and warping into cobat might  be hard to "stop on a dime" right at your opponent. I know this might be getting ahead of ourselves design-wise, just sharing a thought.

[Czar Mohab]

[...] and warping into cobat might  be hard to "stop on a dime" right at your opponent. [...]

See Picard Maneuver.

[...]As for a rule set, we are making our own. [...]

This I was hoping for.

The Czar

[[UFP]Exeter]

I will need to figure out how to do this.  Will have to be a tatic with very specific conditions and timing.

[Starfox1701]

Well its dangerous. You run into something at warp speed shields or no shields you are dead.

[Captain Adam]

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[Starfox1701]

No I'm thinking like canon. That danger should be factored into what is such a potentially disruptive game tactic.

[Javora]

My suggestion is to use the "Warp Button" as a forfeit mission option while in a mission.  Sort of like leaving the map in SFC 2/OP.  That way we can have plasma, missiles, etc and bring the fighting style back to SFC 2/OP which IMHO worked best.  This also removes some of the issues programming and while playing as you don't have to deal with what someone stated "jumping bean" players.

This way keeps the warp terminology in the Star Trek game while keeping used for what we repeatedly saw on screen...  as a way to retreat.

[[UFP]Exeter]

Going to warp will mean leaving the sector, but there is nothing from preventing a mission from going to different sectors.  Therefore, going to warp will not not end a mission.