Topic: What is the difference between the two 45 or 9 MM?

[Age]

What is the difference between a 45 Magnum and a Barretta 9 MM?I asked on some other board but I know you guys here will be able to answer this.

I heard on NCIS LA that 9 MM a little safer is that true?

Move this to H and S if that is the more apporiata forum.

[Lieutenant_Q]

The primary difference between the two is the amount of stopping power behind the shot.

When I went to get my first handgun years ago, the guy behind the counter was very helpful.  The 45 has a bigger kick, and a lot more stopping power, while the 9 MM is easier to handle, but it might just take two or three shots to stop a full grown man in his tracks.  Now the amount of recoil will vary depending on the manufacturer.   To actually say a 9 MM is safer, it all depends on the context.  A 9 MM round is less likely to over-penetrate, which means less chance of someone you didn't intend to hit getting hit, but its also not likely to deter a determined attacker, unless you want to empty half the clip into him.  In the States you can also buy specialty munitions that can change these factors, for example, if you don't want to over-penetrate with your 45?  They do make hollow-point bullets, they will tear through flesh and muscle, but they'll shatter upon hitting anything hard like bone, or a wall.  (That shattering, btw, is what makes them illegal in most countries, but air marshals have their weapons loaded with them exclusively, because a miss won't penetrate the outer hull of the airliner at 40,000 feet.)

[Brush Wolf]

I am going to guess that the writers were thinking about the fact that a revolver doesn't have a safety. The best way to carry a revolver is to have the hammer sitting on an empty chamber giving up one shot.

[The Postman]

45 Mag is a big cartridge in a large frame handgun. Overkill for a carry gun if you are not also hunting with it. On the other end you have 25ACP, 380 Auto and 9mm. All of them are small and concealable but may not stop an intended target. Choice of ammo type and shot placement at these calibers is critical for the intended end use.  10mm and my personal favorite, 45acp are good choices. My 1911 (1919 Colt, US Army, not A1) is my carry gun (rarely   ) when I am not anywhere near my job and other forebidden places.

[Age]

What is the difference betweeen some of these Postman post some pics.

[The Postman]

22, 25, 32, 380, 9mm, 357 SIG, 38, 357, 40, 45, & 223 rifle (for comparison)

Another larger caliber that I overlooked before that would go in the same area as 10mm is 40S&W


Cartridge Type Muzzle Energy In Foot-Pounds
9 mm Luger 350
.357 Sig 475
.357 Mag 550
.38 Special 310
.40 S&W 425
.44 Mag 1,000
.45 GAP 400
.45 ACP 400
.45 Colt 370
.454 Casull 1,900
.460 SW 2,400
.50 AE 1,500
.500 SW 2,600

http://www.amalgamatedstuff.com/tt/handgun-ammunition.html

Do a search for 9mm pistol for typical type photos. Many manufacturers make them including but not limited to, S&W, Ruger, Sig Sauer. Beretta and Colt

45 Mag is actually a rare caliber developed by Winchester in 79. The typical gun is a large frame revolver (think Dirty Harry)

The end use and shooting ability will dictate what is best for each shooter

[Starfox1701]

The 9mm is a smaller round then the .45 ACP and the weapons tend toward less recoil making it easier to maintain your site picture and therefore improving the accuracy in theory. It also allows for more ammo in a single magazine in theory increasing the amount of time you remain combat effective. This is why most law enforcement agencies made the switch back in the 1980s. In practice however the lack of stopping power of the 9mm round has caused problems for cops. This is why most are trained to empty the magazine into a suspect to insure they stay down. It is also why many police forces are switching to the SW .40 round for more stopping power. It also doesn't hurt that many USPs(Universal Service Pistols) come in both 9mm and SW .40 variants.

The main issue, as far as I am aware, with the .45 ACP is both the cost of the ammo and the fact that most of the variants of this weapon are modeled on the 90+ year old Colt 1911 and so only carry 8 or 9 rounds compared to the 14 or 15 rounds of most 9mms. Their are some HiCap versions like the Para Arms P14 that have comparable ammo loads to most 9mms but the grip is closer to the size of a Desert Eagle and can be uncomfortable or unwieldy if you have smaller hands.

The .45GAP is the Glock version of the .45ACP round and is slightly shorter allowing for a better fit in their specific design of pistols.

[Age]

I see why Dirty Harry likes the his 44 auto Mag.

What would be good for a lefty with small hands?

I would think the reason why Kenzie said to Teaks about his 9mm be safe is it is light wieght as she is USN and he is LAPD.

[Capt. Mike]

    http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/g2Contender.php   .

Mike

[Starfox1701]

I think the reason NCIS LA uses 9mm is because it is a common gun type and would not be hard to get if their undercover personalities need a gun.

As for a gun recommendation I have a personal preference for Colts, Sig Sauer, Heckler & Koch, though Para Arms and Magnum Arms also make good guns

[Age]

It is only Deaks who uses the 9 mm bing LAPD the rest use 45 Magnums being military and Kenzie correction is USMC Cooljay is USN seal.Hannah ?

[Tulwar]

A .45 cal is a big, slow bullet.  This has a number of advantages over small high velocity ammunition.  1.) It is more likely to release its energy into soft tissue, so there is no need for a hollow-point.  2.) The bullet will lose less speed (enegy) over the distance traveled. 3.) The .45 ACP is actually sub-sonic, so it does not create a sonic boom as it travels.

Overall, the .45 cal bullet carries more energy (mass x velocity) than any common pistol ammunition, including .40 cal.  Usually, .357 Magnum and 10mm is much more powerful, and of course, .44 Mag is going to be about the same weight, with a lot more powder behind it.  This all depends on the specific ammunition.  A .45 cal cartridge from the US Army armory is going to be more deadly than a .44 Magnum Cowboy load.

38's are a family of bullets, starting with the .38, going to .38 Special, and ending with .357 Magnum.  The difference between the cartridges is length and powdercharge.  This is so you can use less powerful ammunition in the more powerful guns, but you can't put the more powerful cartridges in guns that were not designed to take the stress.  The regular .38's was never considdered to have much stopping power.  The .38 Special is much more effective, and anything called "Magnum" is a nasty piece of work.  The discussion of .38's is important to lead up to 9mm.  The bullets are approximately the same size.

9mm is an efficient .38.  While there is a lot of crap 9mm ammunition that has very little stopping power, originally, the cartridge was to have power midway between .38 Special and .357 Magnum.  These was an added benefit that the cartridge was compact, as the .38 has a legacy of origionally being designed for black powder.  Smokeless powder does not burn as completely in a .38 as it does in a 9mm.  This makes the 9mm far more consistant than the .38.  The bullet is small and efficient, so you can put a lot of them in a magazine.

The main drawback to the 9mm is that of any small, high velocity round.  It needs a hollow-point to make it expand in soft tissue, otherwise, it'll just leave a neat 9mm hole.  With a hollowpoint, it's like hitting someone with a tiny hand-grenade.

Hitting somebody with a bigger, faster bullet is always going to increase the chance of an instant kill.  There's just a bunch of trade-offs.  Some people think the sweetspot is 9mm.  Other people think it comes at .45 ACP.  22's, especially Magnums are deadly weapons.  There are questionable calibers like .25, and there is the stupid powerful .50 cal.  Until you actually use a weapon, it's all opinion.  What's important is that one is comfortable with the weapon.

[Javora]

One thing with .357 Mag./.38 Special is that unless you are buying a Desert Eagle, you're probably looking at a revolver.  Revolvers are not entirely bad as they won't jam like a clip-fed pistol.  A .357 is going to shoot at a longer range than most rounds and at a lot flatter trajectory.  That can be both good and bad because with a .357 you can really reach out and touch someone so to speak, but on the other hand you have more to worry about where the round is going to go if you miss your target.  Also like Tulwar said you can put .38 rounds in a .357 for target practice to reduce cost.  Speaking of cost, .45 is expensive bullet right now.  9mm is made by a lot of different countries which makes it cheaper to buy.  From what I'm hearing/seeing IMHO the .40 round would be the best compromise right now.

One thing I would do if I were to invest into a new caliber bullet is to find a good semi-auto rifle or lever action to reduce the number of different kinds of bullets in the house.

[Czar Mohab]

What is the difference between a 45 Magnum and a Barretta 9 MM?I asked on some other board but I know you guys here will be able to answer this.

I heard on NCIS LA that 9 MM a little safer is that true?

Whether one is safer than the other I do not know. As with anything related to the weapon, it also depends on who's wielding it. But what I do know is that the M1911 was removed from general military use in the 80s, replaced ultimately by the 9mm Beretta; and of the two the M1911 has more "umph".

The Beretta is smaller-lighter-cheaper, and it is easy to see and feel. IMHO its biggest pro and con compliment each other nicely - I can put the muzzle back on target faster than the M1911, which is good because I will need to use more rounds to put the <insert politically correct bad guy here> down.

OTOH, a 9mm round is less likely to find itself inside something important (whether you hit or miss the target) if it becomes necessary to discharge the weapon in an important area, such as anyplace inside the hull of the ship.

The Czar

[Tulwar]

The old M1911a1 (.45 ACP) has a lot of safety features.  I think this makes the weapon dangerous.  The brass, up in the Pentagon think the average soldier is too stupid to handle their weapon, so the M1911 has a safety lever and a palm safety.  Your local police department, on the other hand, commonly sellects some kind of Glock, which does not have a safety lever or a palm safety.  The Police Chief and his leiutenants are close to the front line, so they trust their people to know what they are doing.  I don't know if it's due to the longevity of the M1911 design, but it has been involved in a large number of accidental shootings.  It just goes to show that the only safety that counts is the one between the opperator's ears.

I agree with Javora.  The .40 cal. is only slightly larger than the 9mm and is a lot more powerful.  On average, .40 cal rounds carry less energy than the .45 cal, the shooter experiences more recoil, and it has the drawback of a high velocity bullet, but you can comfortably wrap your hand around a grip with 10 or 12 rounds.  Then, if you miss with the first, who's to say 11 more will do you any good.

For self-defence, I'd always recomend a wheel gun.  Something like a .38 Chief's Special won't jam and doesn't have a safety to fool with.  With a snub nose barrel, you can put is just about anywhere.  It only five chambers, so you'll only want to load it with four rounds.  That's more than you need if you are simply defending yourself.  If you are intent of killing the punks that broke into your house or get involved in a gang war, you'll want some real artilery, but in self defence, the fight is over, with the first shot.  Even if noone is killed, somebody is running away.  It isn't a cool, macho weapon, but if someone is intent on doing bodily harm to you or your's, a .38 Special will do the job.

There are a lot of guys that what to express their manliness though firearms.  They should get a motorcycle, instead.  A firearm is either a tool or an investment.  If you treat one as an investment, you should buy during a Republican administration and sell under a Democratic administration.  Nobody is afraid of Obama, anymore, so prices are starting to go back down.

I just had to look up "45 Magnum" in case there was such a thing, and I wasn't aware of it.  Sure enough, there is, but it's exotic enough that I don't have to be embarraced.  I won't have anything to do with exotic calibers.  What good is a flashlight is you can't get batteries for it?

Another thing, the main reason there are fewer stories of police not being able to stop assailants with .45's as 9mm's is because the .45 is not as popular.  Ask any cop and he'll tell you, "Shot placement is everything."

[Starfox1701]

I have to disagree with 1 thing you said. NEVER deliberately not fully load your weapon unless that causes it to jam. If you are in a situation where you need to fire your weapon you can't afford the luxury of assuming they will run away or that there is only 1 or 2 of them. It is always better to have 100 bullets at your disposable and never need them then to have only 4 and need 5 or 6. Missing is not the only reason you might need to keep shooting and you should always plan accordingly.

[Age]

It is going to be easier to get a firaarm up here once gun registration is sacked but you will still need a FAC.I would probably try a few a firing range or a place that offers lessons.It isn't high on my priority list atm.

I do know someone I played Pefect world International with that has a 357 and uses 38 rounds.

[Tulwar]

I've been told to keep the hammer on a empty chamber since I was little.  Different old men, same advice.

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

I was always taught to keep a chamber empty unless you're going into a situation where you could expect trouble. I always carry a fully loaded weapon when I go shopping or to the bank and I also carry a few speed loaders or magazines, depending upon the type of sidearm I'm carrying.

[Tulwar]

I never had to carry a pistol.  In the Army, I was married to an M-16A1, Geeze, if that doesn't date me, but never a pistol.  My weapons live in the safe, come out to be excerised and cleaned, and go right back.

[Starfox1701]

I guess that's where I was trained different. I was taught keep the gun empty till you intend to use it, but if it is on your person and not ready to fully ready to fire you might as well not have it at all. I was also taught basic ROEs to live by.

ROEs (Rules of Engagement)

1. Don't carry if you won't use it.
2. Never advertise you have a gun on you. This will bring the wrong kind of trouble.
3. Only draw if you intend to use.
4. If you pull the trigger aim to kill; the other guy won't be aiming to wound or fire warning shots.
5. Never touch the trigger until you intend to fire.

[Tulwar]

Never touch the trigger until you intend to fire.  There are a lot of fools that put their fingers on the trigger not knowing it is just a matter of time till it goes off.

[Starfox1701]

Add to the list

[Czar Mohab]

Never touch the trigger until you intend to fire.  There are a lot of fools that put their fingers on the trigger not knowing it is just a matter of time till it goes off.

I even do that with super soakers. Kind of look like a goober (with a plastic water gun that is) but its awesome practice for any trigger operated weapon.

Also, never point the weapon at anything unless you intend to shoot it. Its kind of a "Duh"; however, there are still those out there that have the inability to understand something so basic as "If this goes off right just now, the bullet will go through my <insert victim here>".

The Czar

[Tulwar]

Never touch the trigger until you intend to fire.  There are a lot of fools that put their fingers on the trigger not knowing it is just a matter of time till it goes off.

I even do that with super soakers. Kind of look like a goober (with a plastic water gun that is) but its awesome practice for any trigger operated weapon.

They make trigger guards for a reason.

[Czar Mohab]

Never touch the trigger until you intend to fire.  There are a lot of fools that put their fingers on the trigger not knowing it is just a matter of time till it goes off.

I even do that with super soakers. Kind of look like a goober (with a plastic water gun that is) but its awesome practice for any trigger operated weapon.

They make trigger guards for a reason.

Me personally, I am speaking of what this marine and his rifle are doing:



Its practice in the military due to the simple fact that trigger guards don't prevent stupid. Intense, mind-altering training reduces stupid, and along with trigger guards, almost prevents it.

The Czar

[Age]

What is on his leg a 45 or 9mm?

[Javora]

Looks like an H & K.  If I were to hazard a guess further, I'd say a 9mm.

[Czar Mohab]

Highly likely to be a 9mm Beretta. It is standard issue. *but* I could be wrong. It happens.

on-but-off-topic:

That thigh holster is considerably more comfy than the hip holster it replaced I highly recommend one, or at least giving it a fair trial *never* am I wrong when it comes to comfort.

The Czar

[The Postman]

Highly likely to be a 9mm Beretta. It is standard issue. *but* I could be wrong. It happens.

on-but-off-topic:

That thigh holster is considerably more comfy than the hip holster it replaced I highly recommend one, or at least giving it a fair trial *never* am I wrong when it comes to comfort.

The Czar

The thigh holster doesn't permit concealed carry     open carry causes more problems than it is worth in the general population, at least in Mass...

[Starfox1701]

True but it makes for rapid draw and good motion for getting a quick site picture. I've got one big enough for a Desert Eagle

[Age]

What is safer though a 9mm or a 45?Fire arms used on NCIS LA.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/NCIS:_Los_Angeles_-_Season_4

TY.

[Panzergranate]

I am going to guess that the writers were thinking about the fact that a revolver doesn't have a safety. The best way to carry a revolver is to have the hammer sitting on an empty chamber giving up one shot.

Cowboy old western pistol didn't have a safety and some were single action.

Millitary and Police revolvers all have safety catches as the hammer strikes a firing pin, which can be locked in place.

Revolvers have one huge advantage over automatic pistols.... they don't jam or have stoppages.

The only pistols I've shot with, back in the 1980's, were the Browning 9mm., Star (a Spanish Berreta copy) and the .357" Magnum. I prefered the Magnum as it hit exactly where I was aiming it.

Other guns include 30mm. Rarden cannon, Browning M.1919-A2 and Lee Enfield SMLE Mark.V.

 

[Czar Mohab]

Revolvers have one huge advantage over automatic pistols.... they don't jam or have stoppages.

Revolvers are susceptible to squibs, jams, hangfires, misfires, catastrophic misfires, injury to the shooter, and accidental discharges, among other things. Things like proper care and maintenance, training, proper ammo, adequate design of the gun, etc. can reduce failure, but the potential is always there. To the best of my knowledge, a revolver will not "stovepipe", so at least there is that.





The Czar

[Panzergranate]

Best range accident happened to a guy stood next to me on a range in Dorset back in the early 1980's.

He had a box of Czech CZ +P 9mm. which said in very big red lettering: NOT FOR USE IN PISTOLS - FOR SMG / CARBINE USE ONLY!!

Despite everybody telling him not to, he loaded it into the magazine of his Browning pistol and with that typical niavity of folks that believe positive thinking makes things work / be alright, he pulled the trigger....

The slide blew off the pistol and smacked him in the safety goggles. The pistol was totally f**ked.

There was a chorus of "Told you so".

The morals of the tale:

(1) Positive thinking is bulls**t....... s**t still happens.

(2) Big red warning messages on things really do need heeding.

(3) No matter how hard guns are regulated, idiots will still manage to own one.

 

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

No matter what you use, always put safety first!

A guy on one of the forums I frequent posted that he accidentally shot himself while holstering his 9mm.

I am an NRA certified Rifle, pistol, shotgun instructor, CMT, CMC, HRCC, FWIC instructor in the Marines and have been an infantry Marine for almost 8 years.

Last sunday started as a normal day, my wife and I were going to go grocery shopping then go for a drive in the Vette with a couple of other couples I their sports cars. I got dressed and as a last action prior to leaving the house I holstered my handgun.

I was carrying S&W M&P 9mmC* in a Masters skeleton Belt slide on a Bullhide belts Gunbelt. *this pistol does not have the external safety or we would not be discussing this


The holster does not slide freely on that gunbelt and in fact takes quite a bit of effort to slide on which up until this point I had looked at as a plus.

I holstered the handgun and as I did so it fired. The cops that showed up determined that due to the powder burns on my trigger finger that I didn't pull the trigger and that the holster was in fact the culprit because when I had slid it onto the belt it had kind of bunched up around the trigger guard area and a fold of the leather had depressed the trigger causing the weapon to fire.

Warning! And I do mean WARNING!: If you go there he posted a pic of the wound.

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=313431

[Age]

I have seen worse injuries from industrial accidents.How bad would that be compared to an industrial and I have had few of those.

[Javora]

Revolvers are susceptible to squibs, jams, hangfires, misfires, catastrophic misfires, injury to the shooter, and accidental discharges, among other things. Things like proper care and maintenance, training, proper ammo, adequate design of the gun, etc. can reduce failure, but the potential is always there. To the best of my knowledge, a revolver will not "stovepipe", so at least there is that.

The Czar

I've always felt that the Colt Anaconda was a poor man's Python.  But anyway looking at the picture, that looks like he was using extremely under powered loads in that revolver what most would call "practice loads".  From the looks of it the lead from the previous round didn't clear the barrel and without thinking the person fired again.  All that built up energy went right back into the cylinder.  Anything is possible I guess, but IMHO someone screwed up reloading some ammo.  Not something I would blame the gun on right away.

[Czar Mohab]

Revolvers are susceptible to squibs, jams, hangfires, misfires, catastrophic misfires, injury to the shooter, and accidental discharges, among other things. Things like proper care and maintenance, training, proper ammo, adequate design of the gun, etc. can reduce failure, but the potential is always there. To the best of my knowledge, a revolver will not "stovepipe", so at least there is that.

The Czar

I've always felt that the Colt Anaconda was a poor man's Python.  But anyway looking at the picture, that looks like he was using extremely under powered loads in that revolver what most would call "practice loads".  From the looks of it the lead from the previous round didn't clear the barrel and without thinking the person fired again.  All that built up energy went right back into the cylinder.  Anything is possible I guess, but IMHO someone screwed up reloading some ammo.  Not something I would blame the gun on right away.

You describe a squib. And no, a squibs typically are not the gun's fault. I was just pointing out that revolver or otherwise, accidents can happen.

The Czar

[Corbomite]

There is a high powered pistol used for hunting that can blow your thumb off if held wrong. I'm trying to remember the name of it.


EDIT: Found it! I knew I saw this somewhere:

Mythbusters Revolver Cylinder Gap

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

I have seen worse injuries from industrial accidents.How bad would that be compared to an industrial and I have had few of those.

It wasn't the extent if the wound I was talking about. It was that kids can view this thread and that even a well trained Marine can have an accident if not diligent about safety.

[Sirgod]

Good point Shadow.

I had a good friend way back in the 80's, who swore he could rapid fire a Bren-10. His eye shot out due to the recoil on about the third shot, and hung on his face.

Diligence is the key here.  that, and not doing anything stupid.

Stephen

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

I agree, Sirgod. I had firearm safety drummed into my skull even before I was big enough to lift a firearm.

[Age]

I would really go for some training in the does and don'ts as i ma not sure what it is meant by squeeze as to to pull.

[Corbomite]

It means don't jerk the trigger to fire as it will make the barrel move and spoil your aim. So you squeeze with even pressure, not pull a trigger.

[Sirgod]

Exactly, Corbo.

Imagine you have a small rubber ball in your hand, now just gently squeeze it with the forefinger , Age. That is the same effect that you are looking for, rather than just trying to jerk the finger and squish the ball.

Stephen

[Age]

To all those Military trained do they teach you to use both hands or just your dominate hand?I often see lefties with the gun on the right holstered and pulling it out with thier right hand.

It was taught back in Norse days of the Vikings to leanr how to wield a sword with both hands in case you lost one of them.This happened to Tyr God of War which he had to switch from is right to his left.