Topic: Plasma bolts - possible?

[FPF-DieHard]

For SFC2 CE . . . is it within your power to add plasma bolts to the game?

The lack of direct-fire plasma was huge, unbalancing, and caused more issues than most even realize.

[Strat]

No Promises. However.

Describe this weapon. What type of damage? How much damage? Effects on target? Graphically what would it look like?

[FPF-DieHard]

it was a direct fire options for plasma.  Did about half damage over that seeker version of the torpedo with accuracy that photons torps would laugh at.

[Strat]

Direct as in phaser? Or the x type disruptors?

Describe what they would look like.

Shoot me some numbers of damage, ranges, and percent to hit.

I have never heard of these before, which is why I ask so many questions.

I also need to know how they damage the ship. Is it like a photon or laser, in that it hits a facing shield, or like plasma that also have a mode to do damage to all shields?

[Nemesis]

This is a mixture of what I remember + an online SSD .  My memory says damage =1/2 of the standard plasma at that range, power requirements are the same.   Range and hit chances from the SSD.  I am miles from my SFB stuff if I can even find it so I can't check it right now.

Range           0-5   6-10    11-20    21-30
Hit Chance      1-4   1-3     1-2        1 

Standard power.  I don't recall if you can bolt a shotgun or enveloping.  Hope this helps.

[Strat]

Is this a weapon mode or weapon type?

[Nemesis]

Weapon mode.  Instead of firing the torpedo in its standard mode you detonate it in the tube and focus the burst on your target.  Standard torps up to the moment of firing.  You can get effective damage even when your opponent could have just outrun it if fired in standard mode. 

My group never used it so I'm no expert on it.

[TarMinyatur]

I once lobbied for Plasma Bolts...

Yet I think plasma bolts would diminish the flavor of SFC's plasma-chucking races. Perhaps if Plasma moved at speed 32 (instead of 36), bolts might be necessary to compete. But the greater issue regards regular combat in SFC...combat between all-too-common BCH's, CWL's, DWL's and other elite ships. If players usually flew ships with far less impressive power curves (e.g. Fed-CA, Klink-D6), plasma would truly show its strength in SFC.

In an environment that permits battle groups comprised of three K-AD5's or H-APA's...yeah...Plasma Bolts are beckoning...but are they truly needed? Hmm.

SFB's Enveloping/Shotgun Plasma torps would lose their extra energy if bolted. So a 100-pt Enveloping-R torp would be treated as a 50-pt warhead, which could do 25 points max, assuming it hit (66% accuracy up close, subject to ECM, Erratics).

I never bolted Plasma in SFB. It just wasn't a good return on the investment.

[Strat]

Philisophical discussion aside, adding an addition weapon 'mode' to any weapon is not possible without the ability to freely edit the sprites.q3 file.

Also, I think adding a new weapon 'type' of plasma bolt does not introduce the same balance as bringing in a new weapon 'mode'. You run into issues of more hardpoints, energy use of separate weapons, .. just they would be completely separate weapons, not different modes of the same one.. I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

That's like breaking up plas r,s,f into different hardpoints and weapons on each ship. That's not balanced.

[TarMinyatur]

I seem to remember MagnumMan coding Plasma Bolts for SFC 2.013ish. He implemented Control-Z to fire plasma in "bolt" mode. It required no new artwork. Taldren's people said "no." And that was that. Shrug.

[Javora]

I remember something about that as well.  Seems like Eric Bethke said no after the Plasma Bolts were added.  What I don't remember is if the code for that was commented out or flat out removed.  The only way to know is by looking and that might take too much time away from pressing issues at hand.  Even if it is there, we don't know how un/balanced it is.  This might be something to look at/for after the other issues are addressed.

Personally I'm just hoping that FireSoul adds a F-FFL+ to the ship list.   

[Age]

I thought it was more like the plasma torps that you see in SFC3.

[Strat]

While it is technically possible to adjust the game to store weapons info in an editable file, it is in reality a major change to the core programming of the game. Right now they are all 'hard coded' into the exe.

Right now there is not enough interest or demand to warrant me spending the next 500+ hours rewriting the way weapons mechanics are stored and read.

As for me making changes to existing weapons in the code manually, or creating new ones using existing code- that is easier. But still right now there is not enough interest or demand YET to warrant me spending the next +200 adding them in, testing, and balance testing them...

I ask to get a sense of where things are. It's good to have ideas, perhaps they can come true. But that's why I opened my initial response with "No Promises". I don't want to discourage goals and brainstorming, but even I have to admit that this all takes valuable time from RL for me.

I am really pushing just to get this release out to you as is. I'm really sorry I am limited as to what else I can do. If there is a great demand, I may add more weapons later.

[Tulwar]

I thought plasma bolts are good for when you're chewing on a web.  Then, there are no Tholians in SFC.  If I had a team of programmers writing my version of SFC from scratch, I wouldn't leave them out.  Well, maybe if I win the Powerball....   Three firing modes is enough for any weapon in this game.

[Nemesis]

I believe that they are also useful against high speed phaser boaters.  They can't just maintain a little distance and out run every shot. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

A bit off topic but a bit on topic as well since we are talking weapons more. 

It would also be nice if it was possible to mix drone loads so some lights and some heavies could be carried.  Don't know if it is remotely possible but if it is it would be nice.

[Commander Maxillius]

Bolts would be real handy fighting X/phaser boats, and everything else that will run out an R-torp fired at range 10 down to less than 10 points.

Sure it's not a very good return on power investment, but it would make the difference between landing your shots and watching your big orange ball dwindle to a tiny orange ghost before it hits.

[Dizzy]

Would adding plasma bolts make us drop Plasma speed to 32? Or do the roms get their cake and eat it?

[FPF-DieHard]

Would adding plasma bolts make us drop Plasma speed to 32? Or do the roms get their cake and eat it?

That would probablu have to be done, play testing would determine what's needed.

[Dizzy]

It took a while, but I finally mastered the plasma ballet and other related romulan tactics. Changing the plasma speed to 32 while having bolts would completely rewrite romulan tactics. They wouldnt feel or play the same at all.

[FPF-DieHard]

It took a while, but I finally mastered the plasma ballet and other related romulan tactics. Changing the plasma speed to 32 while having bolts would completely rewrite romulan tactics. They wouldnt feel or play the same at all.

I'm not sure that's a bad thing and think of how much better Gorn would be if they actually have a direct-fire weapon.

[TarMinyatur]

The Gorn might benefit from a longer-range G-torp, a persissstant Gorn-Torp that doesn't fizzle, without the troubles of a direct-fire plasma mode. IIRC, SFC 2.013pr (unreleased) had a modified Plas-G:

Range......0-10...11-15.....16-20.....21-25.....26-30.....31-32....33-34....35....36....37   
Damage....11........10...........9............8............7.............6...........5.........4......3......0

It traded initial warhead strength for endurance. (If you wanted 20-point crunch power, you could switch to F-torps.)

Your opponent could still run away at 31 for a long time to completely avoid damage, unless they started at range 5.9 (and had perhaps lit you up with Ph-1's, which have a pretty nice range 5 chart).

Of course, range 8.9 Phaser-boat attacks could neutralize this weapon, but Range 5.9 or 4.9 Phaser-boat attacks wouldn't escape unscathed.     

[Dizzy]

It took a while, but I finally mastered the plasma ballet and other related romulan tactics. Changing the plasma speed to 32 while having bolts would completely rewrite romulan tactics. They wouldnt feel or play the same at all.

I'm not sure that's a bad thing and think of how much better Gorn would be if they actually have a direct-fire weapon.

Romulan is harder than gorn. They generally have fewer phasers and weaker ships. I remember that match vs Corbo when I was in a Gorn BF and he was in an RHK. I barely beat him that match... BARELY. And from both sides of the fence, Gorn and Rom, that match wouldnt have been played anything like how it went down. Yeah, speed 32 plasma with bolts would rewrite everything. But I agree... distancing myself from the initial shock of having to relearn everything... It would be better imo to have a ranged option.

BUT, with PPD and bolts... who could stop the ISC then? Scary.

[knightstorm]

BUT, with PPD and bolts... who could stop the ISC then? Scary.

I can't stop them without bolts so no change there.

[Corbomite]

I remember that match vs Corbo when I was in a Gorn BF and he was in an RHK. I barely beat him that match... BARELY.

Couldn't have been me. I wouldn't fly an RHK if you paid me and you've never beaten me! 

[Strat]

I've been keeping an eye on this thread.

I can say that, having scanned through the code on the weapons... changing slightly existing weapons should be pretty easy from a programmer's point of view. I'm talking stuff like, speed, percent to hit, damage, ranges, etc. Personally I think hellbore needs a boost.  I could never get it to hit anything.. But then again I was never very good at hydran.

But, admittedly, making changes like this would have to be very... articulate.

Right now I'm fine just getting a stable release out of the old game.

[Dizzy]

I remember that match vs Corbo when I was in a Gorn BF and he was in an RHK. I barely beat him that match... BARELY.

Couldn't have been me. I wouldn't fly an RHK if you paid me and you've never beaten me! 

Yeah... I kept a low profile. You didnt even know I was your opponent. I didnt know it was you until later anyway when I found out from DH who was on voice comms with you when you died.

[FPF-DieHard]

When the heck did Dizzy even fly Gorn?

Anywhoo, looks like this is tabled and a moot topic.

[Dizzy]

Yeah, too bad too... Imagine giving fighters plasma bolts!

[Dizzy]

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163390597.msg1123011434.html#msg1123011434

That post and keep reading corbo. I never bragged about it. Still not. I mean, out of all the times you've handed me my ass, I finally one upped you on a server where neither of us knew who the other was. It was poetic. It was also the most challenging single match combat I've ever had.

[Corbomite]

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163390597.msg1123011434.html#msg1123011434

That post and keep reading corbo. I never bragged about it. Still not. I mean, out of all the times you've handed me my ass, I finally one upped you on a server where neither of us knew who the other was. It was poetic. It was also the most challenging single match combat I've ever had.

I see nothing conclusive in that set of posts that says it was me. As I said, I never flew the RHK on a server (at least not for any real amount of time and I never was in PvP with one), DH and I never even really began interacting until we got into PBR together, so I don't know how this "information" was passed to him by me and to be honest I can count on one finger the times I "died" on the D2. I lost plenty of skimishes by being run off the map, but only Warsears ever popped me.

[FPF-DieHard]

Yeah, too bad too... Imagine giving fighters plasma bolts!

The mini-photons worked well in that regard.

[Corbomite]

Yeah, too bad too... Imagine giving fighters plasma bolts!

The mini-photons worked well in that regard.

IIRC you couldn't bolt plasma in stasis, but I'd have to look it up.

[FPF-DieHard]

YRC -  it's just the Plasma-D were so broken on fighters (leading to some classically comical t00l nerd rage) the Phot-F just worked better

[Dizzy]

I wonder if they fixed plasma D.

Corbo, maybe I flew the Rhk and you flew the BF. Coulda been an MCC... Im not sure I remember exactly. But they were fairly even hulls and I immediately ate my smack talk a few minutes into the fight after I realized you wernt some chump I could push around. For an hour and a half I played someone that had equal to better skill than me and I just got lucky several times. Ill never forget that match. Its not something I'd forget when hearing from DH how one night some unknown knocked you off on a server and not even DH knew who it was. After giving a few details BSing with DH one night, that's when I realized it was you.

I'd always wondered who that was that'd given me the toughest fight on the D2. It was unreal man, I've never had a match against someone that skilled in all the servers I've flown. I can count with the fingers of one hand the number of captains that coulda flown like you did in that match... and cause we were both incognito, no one ever heard about it. But it came down to shuttle Ph3's man. It was epic. And dont think I'd forget something like learning who that captain was...

[Corbomite]

I wonder if they fixed plasma D.

Corbo, maybe I flew the Rhk and you flew the BF. Coulda been an MCC... Im not sure I remember exactly. But they were fairly even hulls and I immediately ate my smack talk a few minutes into the fight after I realized you wernt some chump I could push around. For an hour and a half I played someone that had equal to better skill than me and I just got lucky several times. Ill never forget that match. Its not something I'd forget when hearing from DH how one night some unknown knocked you off on a server and not even DH knew who it was. After giving a few details BSing with DH one night, that's when I realized it was you.

I'd always wondered who that was that'd given me the toughest fight on the D2. It was unreal man, I've never had a match against someone that skilled in all the servers I've flown. I can count with the fingers of one hand the number of captains that coulda flown like you did in that match... and cause we were both incognito, no one ever heard about it. But it came down to shuttle Ph3's man. It was epic. And dont think I'd forget something like learning who that captain was...

Dizzy, seriously, I would remember something like that too. DH and I were hardly (if ever) on the same side on any server. Think about it - how many servers were the Roms and Feds allied that we would be on TS together to hear something like that? You can't even remember the details of a fight you claim you will never forget. The MCC is a ship I liked to fly, but I can't recall playing Gorn on any serious server except as muscle for Fed ship. It is not my style to be left in a position of praying on an admin shuttle to save my bacon. I would have disengaged long before that. The only way I would have been there is if I had been caught off guard and been crippled. Maybe you are remembering one of the GSA matches we had later on? Either way, this is not the place to discuss it. If you want a detailed response of why I think you're nuts PM me.

[Dizzy]

Alright, deny it then. Thats cool. Like I have EVER lied about a match in all the thgousands of PvP matches Ive had. hmmmpppfff.

[Corbomite]

Alright, deny it then. Thats cool. Like I have EVER lied about a match in all the thgousands of PvP matches Ive had. hmmmpppfff.

I'm not really confiming or denying it. I have no memory of the match. Unless DH steps up and confirms your version of events I can't say that it happened. I remember two distict times I "died" on the D2 vs getting off the map. One was Warsears. I was flying Gorn in that encounter, but that was an X Ship vs that excellent carrier the Roms had and he flew it to the hilt and I wasted supplies before coming up with a strategy... and then botched it all over the place. The other was on Artic Fires when the D2 just started and Marcus Smythe captured my ship after I wasted most of my marines on H&R raids because I didn't even know you could do that to a player ship (up until that time there was only skirmishes on MPlayer and you couldn't capture there). The AI mananaged to pop me once or twice when servers were starting and I got too cocky in small ships trying to run fast missions, but I don't really count those.

EDIT: If you could remember the name used then I might be able to remember if it was one of my aliases.

[Dizzy]

So did Plasma D get fixed so we can use it on fighters?

And Corbo... I dont even remember the name I was using on that server let alone yours, or which server it was. I think it was sometime between 2005 and 2008.

So why does that match stick out? Why do I remember it so much? Because when I flew that match I was at the top of my game and I've never had a tougher opponent. It's hard getting even hulled matches... and when I got one I threw myself into it thinking it would be an easy kill because I'd never seen your name before. I taunted you on your skill the whole game... pretty quickly knowing I was likely bluffing my way into embarrassment because you turned out to so not be a noob. Also because we were both incognito. Neither of us publicly posted about it. And I didnt find out till the server ended and only through DH when late one night talking about server crap he mentioned you had gotten killed and said no one knew who that captain that killed you was. I mentioned the circumstances and he confirmed it. He also said he had always thought that it was me, because who else could it have been? His words. It'd be nice if DH remembered, but it doesnt matter. I love and hate flying against you, Corbo. Love it cuz you make me pull out all the stops and I hate it because I'm physically sick afterwards.

[Corbomite]

Well if it means so much to you, OK then, but I think someone confused me with someone else. Most of the PvP on the D2 was less than epic, so I usually remembered the fights that were a challenge.

[Dizzy]

Well, it didnt happen if you or DH dont remember, lol. But DH told me he was on voice comms with you when you died and went on to say no one knew who your opponent was. After I spelled out the specifics, he then said he had a hunch it was me and confirmed it. It was a cool match. Ill have to tell you how it went sometime...

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

 

[Dizzy]

Yaya, I know, its absolutely absurd... Years later here I am claiming a kill on corbo where I dont remember the specifics of who flew what, what the names were, or even the server. I must be losing my mind, right?

Maybe we can get an answer on Plasma D...?

Also, I have a gripe about the way SFC CE was released... I mean, if its this super polished project, you'd think they'd release a complete fix log. Did I miss it? I'm itching to play it.

[Strat]

I haven't done anything but upgrade the code base to VS 2012 (the old tools basically made the game impossible to develop), get it to run happy in Vista/7/8, and a few limited changes to shiplist for compatibility with an OP+ variant. That alone took me over a year. I had to invent some things from scratch on code no one even knows anything about anymore.

I didn't do the other 'fluf' for the sake of postponing the release to yet another year, or perhaps never... So, no weapons changes have been made. I wasn't even aware there was a problem with plasma d.

But there is a section to post bugs, so if there is a chance, I (or whoever succeeds me) can fix them.  So, by all means, post what you find.

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163392832.0.html

And please keep in mind. This is a volunteer thing. I'm doing the best I can to polish it up for you, believe me. 1+ years is a long time. 

[Dizzy]

Gotcha. I just was uninformed on what was what. Strat, what you did do was fantastic. Do you have any hair left?

Do we have a bug thread linky of known issues? I'll visit your bug thread link, but where is the list of known bugs? I know Corbo posted a lot of things he knew needed fixin. I know of a few issues myself...

Besides all that you did Strat, was there anything else done?

[Strat]

Well for now, I can give you a few links to browse over. The Release Notes are only changes in game play, or changes in 'end user experience'. They do not include a detailed of work the conversion, recreating missing source, changes for new OS compatibility, a few old bugs, and lots of new ones, and not to forget, an updated mission API, which as also incomplete when I started, and all the same stuff for the serverkit, which has also been redone.

Fast forwarding a program language by 10-15 years is no minor task, it was never meant to run on these new OS, hardware, or programming language. So bringing it forward introduced a ton of design challenges more than 'end user challenges', such as how a weapon works. Porting the code to the new language was thought to be impossible, that alone took me circa 8 months. For a long time I didn't know if this would ever get off the ground.

Right now I want to finish the RC. We just found another bug.. I have to fix. Afterwards perhaps I'll make a dev blog.

SFC CE forum
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/board,3303.0.html

SFC 2 CE Release Notes
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163393102.0.html

SFC 2 Beta Forum, where many topics are on past work done
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/board,3304.0.html

[Corbomite]

I wasn't even aware there was a problem with plasma d.

Actually it's Dro-D that's broken. Plas-D works fine. Thanks for all the hard work and hopefully there can be improvements later. I think the most valuable part of the process, however, would be for someone on your end to set up a new thread where all the old ideas can be compiled and then you guys could go through and state what is possible and what is practical for you to do with the code. Then we won't waste time asking you to do things that are not going to happen. Once we know what's possible, we can whittle down what really needs doing vs what we dream would be done.

[Javora]

If I may suggest Strat, have Nemesis reorganize this sub-forums for easier navigation and readability.  Sort of like what he did with the free legal software lists.  That might ease some of the confusion around this new project.

Nemesis will probably want to ring my neck for volunteering him but I can't do it so...   

 

[Strat]

I put in a request to the right guy to have a forum made for discussing this sort of stuff.

For now, consider posting in http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/board,3303.0.html

I am a mod there, and can reorganize as necessary.

[Corbomite]

I put in a request to the right guy to have a forum made for discussing this sort of stuff.

For now, consider posting in http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/board,3303.0.html

I am a mod there, and can reorganize as necessary.

Ok, thanks! When I get some free time and the energy, I will try to find all the stuff we ever suggested/discussed and port it over to the new thread for disection. I've found that most of the problem with getting developers to understand what the community wants is that everything is always all over the place and much of it never is seen by the right set of eyes. If we cound just get a comprehensive list of "yes", "no", "maybe" topics it would help a lot!

[Nemesis]

Nemesis will probably want to ring my neck for volunteering him but I can't do it so...   

The word is "wring". 

You are saved though.

I put in a request to the right guy to have a forum made for discussing this sort of stuff.

For now, consider posting in http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/board,3303.0.html

I am a mod there, and can reorganize as necessary.

[Javora]

The word is "wring". 

You are saved though.

Sorry for the typo.  But hey, I would have helped you out the best I could...  lol.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

I wasn't even aware there was a problem with plasma d.

Actually it's Dro-D that's broken. Plas-D works fine. Thanks for all the hard work and hopefully there can be improvements later. I think the most valuable part of the process, however, would be for someone on your end to set up a new thread where all the old ideas can be compiled and then you guys could go through and state what is possible and what is practical for you to do with the code. Then we won't waste time asking you to do things that are not going to happen. Once we know what's possible, we can whittle down what really needs doing vs what we dream would be done.

Hey Corbo, please tell me what exactly your concerns are. I have made my second account, XP laptop as ISC so I can look for that races issues. First account is win 7 and federation.

[Corbomite]

Hey Corbo, please tell me what exactly your concerns are. I have made my second account, XP laptop as ISC so I can look for that races issues. First account is win 7 and federation.

Concerns? About Dro-D and ISC? None. They don't use them. No one does. Technically they are not in the game because they are broken, but the code is there. It's like TR beams working fine, but have no finished graphic, but opposite.

[Age]

Roms don't need to No D fits as they got the best and that is the cloak use it.

This should be the same for OP.