Topic: Federation reference Series Clippers and other ships

[Bernard Guignard]

Any one Interested in making the following clippers as SFC models to help out the federation reference series? 
also looking for takers on the Cayhua Class, Apache class, and many others ?

http://federationreference.prophpbb.com/post13482.html#p13482

Thank you in advance

[Chrystoff]

What role would a clipper play in Starfleet? Would it be like a fast escort, a courier, or somesuch? I like the term, but my mind always goes directly to sailing vessels.

[Panzergranate]

A lot of these are Royal Navy designations of vessels, which existed through the steam age and up to the 1950's.

Maritime Explaination of Designations:

Gun Whale- The largest row boat or launch carried by a warship, usually a Frigate. It is the only one that is armed. In Nelson's time with a 3 or 6 Pounder cannon, in the 20th century with a machine gun. Used by boarding parties to intimidate and surpress an enemy, land marines, etc.
 
In SFB / SFC terms, any Multi-Role Shuttle (MRS).

(Motor) Torpedo Boat- Short ranged wooden hulled coastal attack vessel. Armed with a limited number of torpedoes.

(Motor) Gunboat- Small short ranged wooden hulled coastal attack and escort vessel. In SFB / SFC terms the Klingon G1 Gunboat.

(Motor) Clipper- Small fast short voyage coastal escort vessel. Larger than a Motor Gunboat and usually metal hulled. Armament similar to a Gunboat. Used to defend against Torpedo Boat and Gunboat attacks.

(Motor) Skiff- Small short ranged slow coastal patrol vessel. Armament similar to a Clipper. Operates around harbours and local waters guarding minefields, etc. Acts as a local scout for shore based defences. Able to engage ships no larger than a Corsair on equal terms. Skiffs are never at sea for more than a day.

Corsair- Similar to a Clipper except totally offensive in role. Generally an opportunist, raiding and harrying vessel. Weaponry tending to be light but in quanity. In SFB / SFC terms the Orion Light Raider.

Corvette- A small to medium sized escort vessel. Smaller than a Sloop, Frigate or Destroyer. In WW2 the most numerous class of warship was the Flower Class Corvette with 167 in total. Always based on small to medium sized rugged civilian hulls and utilising civilian shipyards, components, propulsion, etc. The Flower Class was based on an artic whaler design, others were based around similar vessels. These are never conversions (see Caravelles) but new designs founded on a good civilian vessel. Despite being described as "one hit wonders" Corvettes carry more technology, electronics, ECM and ECCM than any other naval vessel. Defensive armament is usually token. In SFB / SFC terms were talking 1 x Ph2, 1 x Ph3 / PhG. Offensive armament is extremely specialised towards destroying submarines. In SFB / SFC terms replace hedgehog launchers with multiple transporters and depth charges / hedgehog missiles with transporter bombs. Replace submarine with any cloaked enemy warship, most likely Romulan.
 
Sloop- Frigate sized warship with reduced armament. Operates in coastal waters for patrol and escort duties.Cannot undertake long voyage durations. Relies heavily on visiting ports to resupply. Also used to transport personnel and materials between locations and bases. Most common duty is carrying the mail.

If you removed the Photons and nose Phaser from the F-FF and replaced them with cargo then you'd have a Sloop.
 
Mine Sweeper- A Sloop equiped to lay mines and remove mines.

Mine Hunter- A Sloop that can only remove mines.

Flak Ship- Sometimes refered to as a Point Defence Ship in the US Navy. A Sloop equiped completely as an anti-aircraft platform. Deployed in numbers by the German Kreigsmarine during WW2.

Frigate- A small well armed warship that carries a complement of marines and this is what defines a frigate. Capable of long extended voyages and shore based incursions. Does not carry torpedoes.

Destroyer- Originally intended to destroy motor torpedo boats and motor gunboats in WW1. Later used to escort convoys and screen battlefleet against submarine attack. Can sometimes have exactly the same hull and shape as a frigate. Carries torpedoes.

Fleet Battle Tender- Unique to the US Navy in WW 2. Created from gutted out 1920's destroyers. Carries and supplies spare parts, aircraft and ammunition to battlefleets enabling them to stay at sea for longer. Able to move at fleet speeds. Has limited point defence armament only.

Caravelle- A merchant vessel converted into an ad hoc frigate. Unique to Spain and South American nations.

I hope that this explains the smaller boats used by some navies.

[Chrystoff]

Pretty cool info! Thanks for sharing this. 

[Panzergranate]

Here is what a Federation Sloop would be in SFB / SFC as a warship.

The RAR should unpack into a Word Pad scrap for the F-SL as an insert.

Highlight and copy it, then open the SFC 1 SFBSPC13.TXT file in the Specs folder and insert the F-SL above the F-FF.

It uses the same hull as the frigate, which you should by now corrected in your game to a SFB Burke Class model and not the later Okinawa Class that Taldren provide as the stock game model.

In keeping with the essence of a Sloop, the F-SL is armed as follows:

1 x Ph 1 FH
1 x Ph 2 RS
1 x Ph 2 LS
1 x Ph 3 RS
1 x Ph 3 LS

Photons have been replaced with 2 x Cargo boxes.

Boarding parties have been reduced to 2 (4)

Wild Weasels reduced to 1

Suicide Shuttles removed completely.

[Magnum357]

Yep!  I was going to put my input on what a Cutter might be in SFB/SFC, but Panzergranate pretty much described all possibilites. 

[Panzergranate]

It is probally because the Federation have so many small ship classes that partialally or completely cover the role(s) that a PF undertakes is most likely why Star Fleet could not see any point in introducing such a class in SFB.

However in canon DS9 the Defiant is pretty much a PF in size and role.... Now hand up all those who think that the writers may have played SFB PFs at some time??

 

[FoaS_XC]

It is probally because the Federation have so many small ship classes that partialally or completely cover the role(s) that a PF undertakes is most likely why Star Fleet could not see any point in introducing such a class in SFB.

However in canon DS9 the Defiant is pretty much a PF in size and role.... Now hand up all those who think that the writers may have played SFB PFs at some time??

Defiant is a Destroyer, I'd say. The PF is 50-75 meters long - the Danube is closer to what a PF is all about. The SFB-canon reason why the fed PF was never made is because the Federation didn't really like the idea of using non-volunteer attrition units, and apparently no one would want to fly in a PF if they could avoid it (unlike fighters) *shrug*

[Panzergranate]

The Defiant is too undersized and under gunned to function as a destroyer. Compare it to the way larger Freedom Class destroyers shown in the DS9 Episode "The Emmisary" and you'll understand my point.

It has only a third of the firepower that a typical TNG destroyer carries.

It is frequently mentioned that it has a role as an escort, a duty that a PF might undertake.

Unlike a destroyer, the Defiant is incapable of undertaking long extended voyages, again a PF and smaller combat vessel trait.

Shields are inferiour to a typical TNG destroyer. Witness how badly it always comes off when shot at by real warships.

If not a PF then the Defiant is a very good example of a corsair....

It can operate as an offensive unit.

It can operate in an reconaisance role.

It is small, fast and agile, which is it main defensive attribute.

Shields are limited.

Crew is small.

It has a short voyage duration capability only.

It only carries one shuttle.

Armament is light and focused on close range intense do or die first strike assaults on enemy vessels.

It cannot take many hits before it is in trouble.

It is definately not a destroyer though.... doesn't tick the required boxes for the role. I would except an arguement that it is a corsair though, as it does tick all the boxes for this role.

In SFC 1 we run it, in LAN games, with 8 x PhG FA, 1 x Ph1 RX and 4 x Photons. Movement 0.2, 12 x Warp, 2 x Impulse. It is very effective against pretty much anything that isn't a capital ship or starbase. Very lethal against freighters and SFB PFs that I've included into SFC 1 here. It always wins in bot on bot matches as PFs tend to be one hit wonders to the Defiant.

Once players here realised that grabbing a Defiant in a tractor beam and laying into it with only a few weapons could finiosh it off, it lost its edge in LAN games here. My son managed to grab me with a Klingon large Q-ship, shut down all weapons and shields except the front one and reinforced it and slowly pushed me over the map edge during the subsequent 5 minutes. Needless to say I tried everything to break free, push back, shoot, wriggle, etc. but all to no avail. It would have been a different story if I'd had a destroyer.... It would have cost him more to push me for one thing.

[Starfox1701]

I have to disagree here Defiant has 4 Rapid fire Pulse Cannons, 4 type X phaser strips, 5 torpedo lunchers, 3 forward and 2 aft. She has advanced hull armor, and an unrefulled range of more then a year. Her shields are very powerful. During operation return  they held for over 4 hours of continuous battle. She carries 5 shuttles and a crew of more then 50 in wartime. Her warp power is so high the the ship nearly shook herself apart in her builders trials. She can also fight an upgraded Excelsior class cruiser to a stand still. With a good crew she can take on a Negh'Var. She is much more then a PF.
During the rescue of the Cardassian leadership at the start of the Klingon invasion Defiant stood into continuous fire from a Vorcha class cruiser for more than a minute and a half with no shields so they could transport over survivours from the Cardassian ship. Thats like 9 SFB turns of pounding. Defiant was one of the ships that meat the Borg cube in the Typhon Expanse in First Contact. She fought on all the way to Earth and while the ship was beat to hell she was back up and running at DS9 3 weeks later. How much tougher she got to be to be classed as a destroyer?

[Lieutenant_Q]

Actually, I would classify the Defiant as a War Destroyer.  She can take more of a pounding that people give her credit for, and she is certainly capable of extended missions.  (see the Valiant)  Not quite as tough as a true Destroyer, but certainly packs enough firepower to be rated as such.

[FoaS_XC]

Okay, I'll amend what I said with that its an XDD for its era (ie: X-tech from the perspective of TNG). perhaps X-tech War Destroyer, but the "War" designations have never really been comfy for me.

[Panzergranate]

And yet a Dominion BB took out a Defiant in a single salvo....

A Borg cube cuts another clean in two in another scene.

The same went for a Borg Cube in "First Contact". The Defiant had to be abandoned during the battle a with Worf and his crew rescued by the Enterprise E.

The Defiant class is not as tough as some imagine it to be given canon evidence.

As for the number of shuttles where are they stowed. On DS9 it carries only one shuttle as that is all that it has room for. It is only ever described as an escort in cannon.

In SFC 8 x PhG does have the same effect devestating effect on any cruiser as portrayed in DS9. One complete PhG discharge is equal to 1.3 Ph1 discharges remember. A Ph X is approximately this level. This might be why SFB has a limit on the number of PhGs that can be placed on a ship. Using this armament arrangement in SFC 1 it is possible to easily disable a Klingon D7W or L7 in a single attack run, as in lots of flashing orange and black on the target's status scanner.

A friend looked up the Defiant's armament and found 4 x forward Photons and one Aft, 8 x Pulse Phaser forward emitters and 1 x conventional Phaser emplacement covering the rear arc for point defence. It also has a higher than average ECM capability as part of its defences.

It is still slightly smaller in size as some of the TMP and TNG corsairs and clippers such as the Calmoan, Atco and Sentinel class. All part of the same family of hull design as the Oberth class science vessel / super scout.

The Calmoan is armed with 2 x FA Pulse Phaser Cannon pods (PhG in SFC), the Atco with an underslung Photon pod and the Sentinel with 2 x FA Pulse Phaser Cannon pods. All have been modelled for SFC 1 and SFC 2. Out of the bunch I always prefer flying the Calmoan as it is the only one with generous power levels (third underslung engine). It is also the largest clipper in service between TMP and TNG.

The schemematics for TMP to TNG corsairs resemble the clippers but have quad Pulse Phaser pods with twin, tripple and quad engine configurations. Given the choice of Warp Drive utilised, lack of power seems to limit the weaponry carried by these smaller warships.

By TNG these clippers and corsairs would have been feeling their age as shield technology would have rendered their armament choices feeble.

I could see Star Fleet seeking a more powerful replacement replacement for all these old corsairs and clippers.

One valid arguement is that the Defiant Class is a logical TNG evolution of Star Fleet's corsair line, based on similar size, role and armament choice.

After examining Donald Miller's SFB submissions for a light destroyer type of vessel, neccessitated by austerity measures during the General War, the Defiant is comparable in size and role to a "gunman" type light destroyer, something nobody has argued yet. It could also be argued that the Defiant is part of an evolution of the "gunman" light destroyer.

Baring in mind that at the time of DS9 Star Fleet has the Freedom Class and the newer Intrepid Class as their state of the art destroyers, why introduce something with only a quarter of the size of the Intrepid Class and much reduced firepower and range??

The Defiant could be any of the following:

A peusdo fighter

A corsair.

A light destroyer

An new type of escort (which is what is is refered to in DS9) has the combination of a corsair (size, speed , agility, Phaser armament choice and agressive patrol role), a clipper (size, escorting and scouting role) and a light destroyer (torpedoes and defences).

 

[Starfox1701]

And yet a Dominion BB took out a Defiant in a single salvo....

Valaint made 2 passes on that BB and she had the SFB equivalents of being understaffed and poor crew. She had also been out of supply for months so there is no telling what unrepaired damage or incomplete maintaince she had.

A Borg cube cuts another clean in two in another scene.

When did this happen cause to my knowledge FC is the only on screen time for a Defiant and a Borg cube.

The same went for a Borg Cube in "First Contact". The Defiant had to be abandoned during the battle a with Worf and his crew rescued by the Enterprise E.

Of the Fleet the engaged the Borg in the Typhon Expanse only 3 ships can definetly be said to have made it to Earth with the Borg cube. They where Endeavor, Defiant, and Lexington. Endeavor was destroyed shortly after Enterprise arrives. Lexington, the Nebula, makes it all the way through.  When you take into account this was a running battle and the fact that Defiant was back at 100% in less then a month it speaks to a high level of durability.

As for the number of shuttles where are they stowed. On DS9 it carries only one shuttle as that is all that it has room for. It is only ever described as an escort in cannon. A friend looked up the Defiant's armament and found 4 x forward Photons and one Aft, 8 x Pulse Phaser forward emitters and 1 x conventional Phaser emplacement covering the rear arc for point defence. It also has a higher than average ECM capability as part of its defences.

What demisions are you using for her? This is a 120 to 150m long warship with 4 decks. She has 3 small hangers occuping  portions of decks 2,3, and 4. The torpedo lunchers and magazines are located on decks 3 and 4. The 4 forward pulse cannons are on the forward area of the Necelles. The 4 type x phasers are loacated 2 dorsal, 1 behind the main bridge and 1 on top of the forward pod,  and 1 on each necelle running horazontally to cover both ventral and lateral arcs. She has 20 escape pods for the crew. Crews quarters are located on decks 1 and 2. Both the main impuse engines and twin computer cores are on decks 2 and 3. Main duterium tankage is above the impulse drives on deck 1. 8 antimatter pods are on deck 3 just forward of the antimater injector. Defiant's warp core is a new 4 lobed design alowing the ship to generate 4 times the warp plasma of a traditional single shaft linear core of simalar size. She is equiped with oversized class 1 EPS power taps  and renforced plasma transfer conduits to handle the extra warp plasma. The necelles each contain 4 match pairs of warp coils of the same type found on the Galaxy class starship. I took the liberty of doing some callout sheets for the locations the weapons and hangers and a few other things.

As for her class I would go with Escort Destroyer

[Magnum357]

I'm sorry guys, I have to agree with a LOT of the theories that Panzergranete has displayed.  His "SFB" specifications are not too far off of what the Defiant Classes capabilities are.  Keep in mind that the Defiant is most likely an X3 or X4 design, and ADB doesn't really have anything "offical" on those generations of designs (just a lot of speculation).  The Defiant Class can't really "sabre dance" like standard vessels, just a lot of heavy, up close, forward firing punching power.  The photon lauchers are the only thing that can give it good variety of tactical options.   I don't know what the Pulse Phasers are per say, but SFB's gatling Phasers or something similar is probably the closest comparision I have ever come across. 

In my opinoin, however, I would look at the Defiant class as an X3 or X4 Battle Frigate much like ADB's Oretga Class FFB.  The Ortega class was just a competeting design with the DW.  The DW was selected instead because it was built on an entirely new hull that could be upgraded or refitted much more economically then the FFB. 

And with the reports I heard, the Defiant classes size is around 500 feet long (166 yards).  Now what sport does that remind you that is played in Canada? 

And I agree with FOAS, a Star Trek Runabout is probably the closest comparision to an ADB Federation PF I ever saw.  The Defiant has got to be larger than a PF.

[Starfox1701]

Pulse Phaser Cannons use rapid-discharge capacitance banks and high speed beam-focusing coils to temporarily store the discharge for 2.3 nanoseconds within the coils and then releases them as a layared pulse. The emerging pulse is structured like an onion and is able to land a target contact that is more difficult for shields and hull armor to disperse than a standard beam. Discharge levels are classified but observed effects indicate at least a 100% increase in effectiveness over Type X phaser banks.

[Kreeargh]

These rule all but the last 2 they look vulcan       Bernard Guignard  If you wish me to remove the pic let me know.

[Bernard Guignard]

you don't have to perhaps someone here will take up the challenge and build a few of these for for SFC and the FSC.

Here's an incomplete listing of FRS ships some have been modeled in SFC and others have yet to be modeled in one
way or another.  I tried to match what SFC Models have been built to the drawings currently

Durance ...Todd Guenther
Caracal ...Todd Guenther
Apache ... Mike Morrissette
Cahuya ...Todd Guenther
Almeida ... Mike Morrissette
Ariadne 2175 ... aridas sofia    SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Horizon 2193 ... aridas sofia
Hasparath/Kobayashi Maru ... aridas sofia
Archon 2200 ... aridas sofia
Bonaventure 2210 ... aridas sofia
Pytheas 2220 ... aridas sofia
Nordenskjold 2216 ... aridas sofia
Detroyat 2222 ... Mike Morrisette       SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Surya 2242 ... aridas sofia                SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Decatur ... Todd Guenther (Chasseur)   
Pompey ... Todd Guenther
Diana ... Todd Guenther
Coronado ... Todd Guenther (Cibola)     SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Coventry 2246?... Todd Guenther with Evan Mayerle   SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Kiaga 2250 ... aridas sofia
Shak't'eal destroyer 2267... aridas sofia
K'teremny ... Todd Guenther               SFC Modeled by Terradyhne
Klingon light battlecruiser 2250 ... aridas sofia
Endeavour 2263 ... Geoff Mandel         SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Kepler 2263 ... aridas sofia
Monoceros ... aridas sofia
Frobisher 2265 ... aridas sofia
Leonardo 2270 ... aridas sofia and John Trotta
Cygnus 2273 ... aridas sofia
Amerind 2275 ... aridas sofia
Darwin/Komarov modular superscout 2266 ... aridas sofia
Siva 2278 ... aridas sofia reworking the early Reliant prototype
Cochise 2280 ... aridas sofia
Constitution (II) 2265 ... Matt Jefferies (with tweaks by Todd Guenther and Andy Probert)   SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Tikopai 2267 ... Andrew Probert and Richard Taylor    SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Menahga ... Mike Morrisette
Mitannic ... Mike Morrisette
Ascension ... Todd Guenther   SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Balson ... Todd Guenther
Belknap ... Todd Guenther      SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Daran ... Todd Guenther
Avenger ("Wright Corder" configuration) 2273 ... aridas sofia and John Trotta (based on a Reliant prototype by Mike Minor)
Ariel 2276 ... aridas sofia
"Killer Bee" assault pod John Trotta and aridas sofia
Knox 2276 ... Todd Guenther   SFC Modeled by Atrahasis?
Federation (uprated) ... Todd Guenther    SFC Modeled by Atrahasis P81
Kirov ... aridas sofia (specifics-Todd Guenther)
Renner 2284 ... Rafael Gonzalez
Daring ... Rafael Gonzalez
Ianar ... Rafael Gonzalez
Endurance 2285 ... Todd Guenther           SFC Modeled by Atrahasis
Enterprise NCC-2710 Apollo class heavy cruiser 2300 ... Andy Probert
Project: ADREFT 2289 ... Todd Guenther
ACE ... aridas sofia
Ingram 2289 ... Todd Guenther
Akyazi 2285 ... Todd Guenther              SFC Modeled by Wicked Zombie
Akula 2287 ... Todd Guenther                 SFC Modeled by Wicked Zombie
Arbiter 2286 ... Todd Guentheraridas

[Starfox1701]

Do you have ilistrations for all of these? Also I did do a version of Ingram for A2

[Magnum357]

Pulse Phaser Cannons use rapid-discharge capacitance banks and high speed beam-focusing coils to temporarily store the discharge for 2.3 nanoseconds within the coils and then releases them as a layared pulse. The emerging pulse is structured like an onion and is able to land a target contact that is more difficult for shields and hull armor to disperse than a standard beam. Discharge levels are classified but observed effects indicate at least a 100% increase in effectiveness over Type X phaser banks.

Ya, that explaination is from the DS9 Technical Manual.  That i can confirm.  But how would that translate into ADB's system?  If we used that as a basis, these "Pulse Phasers" would have to function "game mechanics wise" as a Gatling Phaser but also as a Disrupter as well.  How would that be done?