Topic: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.  (Read 10961 times)

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Offline Panzergranate

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Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« on: December 02, 2011, 12:17:17 pm »
With so many models of early Klingon warships out there for SFC (whatever version) I thought that it would be nice to have suitable period victims to shoot at....

Obviously before humans had met the Klingons, there was the Kzinti to wage war against.

In SFB the earliest Kzinti ship listed is the FF in Y-61. SFC starts at Y-146 (2250) so the Kzinti FF was first in service when Star Fleet still had Daedalus class starships in service. This probally explains why they seem so outdated in SFB and SFC compared to those of other races.

So what were the Kzinti fielding before this date??

SFB history has the Lyrans and Kzinti waging countless interstellar wars between themselves over several centuries, and occasionally having wars and skirmishes against the Klingons from around the late 1800's or 1900's.

So I knocked up a couple of simple warships, a frigate and a destroyer based on the freighter propulsion unit. I'll redo the engines before release as these were just playability models for proof of concept.

The design is simple for a mass produced warship with pre-MAM warp drive (unless the Kzinti had MAM warp power before the Klingons) or early MAM warp drive.

The engines are in a standard propulsion unit of either double or tripple warp engines, as Kzinti practice, with a cylindrical command hull attached. The bulges on either side house the missiles magazines and launchers. A full salvo is four missiles.

Also a nose mounted short range Disrupter cannon and RP / LP Phaser 3 are carried for direct fire capabilities.

I limited engines to 3 boxes of warp, 2 of impulse with 2 APR and 2 Battery in support. Movement for the Z-YFF is 0.25 and for the Z-YDD is 0.33.

The direct fire weapon systems are just about as much as the power grid can handle without having to sacrafice speed so dependance falls heavily on missile salvoes.... no change from SFB / SFC Kzinti here....

Shields are 9, 8, 8, 7 on both ships and 4 boxes of armour are also carried.

Fortunately SFC 1 allows the Mirak to be added as a legitimate race and I can add them into scenarios using FMSE script editor.

In a couple of SFC 1 tests, with me flying the F-NX (Shields 1, 1, 1, 1. 4 x Phaser 3. 4 x Missile A.) I managed to eventually destroy the Z-YDD only to be mauled and destroyed by the Z-YFF. I've yet to try them out against a proper warship of the era, such as a Klingon L1 Raptor, YD4, YD5 or YD6.

There aren't any early Lyran starships modelled by anybody yet so if somebody wants a project....

The Klingons have many ways to fry a cat. I prefer to use an L7 Fast Battlecruiser!!

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2011, 03:34:38 pm »
I really like the overall shape. Up against the NX class, it looks a little cartoon-y. I would take the saturation out of the color a little bit and maybe add some alien writing to the hull to break up the blank spaces. Also, it does not look like the texture has much detail. If it does it must be very light, you could increase the contrast. The style of the ship looks better in the sfc engine than the high-detail of the NX class you are showing. Maybe you could find a middle ground. We need more NX era races. Good job.

Offline Terradyhne

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2011, 03:47:51 pm »
it seems like you forget the SFB early years Y1-3 modules books there are manny pre pre TOS ships in there. i work now on a Carnivon CA, a race which both Kzin and Lyrans fought before they started wars against the federation.



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Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2011, 10:06:29 pm »
Thers also this one. She's cancept work done for Enterprises 5th season.

Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 11:04:38 pm »
that last ship was the inspiration for my Kzinti Frigate - good design there.
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 12:24:07 pm »
The early Kzinti ships are just playable concept models to try out with friends on LAN to try out the feel of doing battles using older starships. Unfortunately the guady colouring seems to be set by ADB and matches that of other models of Kzinti starships. It is intended to make Klingons and Lyrans want to shoot at them....

I borrowed the textures from somebody's Kzinti freighter model.

I'll have ago at some of my own ideas in a texture later. I've always considered that the various nobility of the Kzinti Hegemony would have distinctive colour schemes on their ships and fleets for recognition during their frequent internal disputes, civil wars, etc.
 
Judging by the amount of armament and size the Dark Stalker is closer to a CL or a CR than a frigate. Then again, what defines a warship as a frigate is the fact that it carries a complement of marines.

Shame that they cancelled ENT just when it was leading up to the Romulan War, first contact with the Kzinti, etc.

In answer to Terradyne, I've never seen the early modules for SFB. My last purchase was the Commander's Edition Volume III back in 1994.

Earlier pre-TOS periods interest me mainly because power, weapons and defences are more limited so players have to create new tactics to cope.

Consider the limitations and constraints of designing a Kzinti warship this far back....
 
Warp engine power of 3 to 4 boxes. Impulse power about 2 boxes. Maybe 1 or 2 APR and 1 or 2 Battery.

A tripple Warp engine design begins to make sense here.

If you want to have a decent speed the hull is going to have to be small. (Movement cost 0.25 - 0.33 or maybe chance for a 0.5 - 0.67 movement cost medium sized hull).

Weapons available (for SFC)  are going to be slow and low yield missiles, short ranged phasers and short ranged disrupters.

Disrupter 1: Offers good close in hitting power but at a high power cost (charging, overloading and holding).

Phaser 3: Only any good at point blank range against similar period ships but doesn't cost anything to hold once charged. Exposes one's own ship to enemy fire to be effective and inferior to Disrupters of the period.
 
Missiles: Offer long range stand off bombardment of an enemy and cost nothing to use. To a slow moving enemy without Phaser or Tractor Beam technology extremely lethal. On the down side the number of reloads = hull size so a small fast warship would have only 1 or 2 reloads, depending on launcher numbers. A medium sized warship could maybe have more missile launchers or more reloads. Early missiles are going to be slow (speed 12).

One will have to kill or cripple an enemy quickly before the racks run dry or be screwed....

On the defences side:

Shields: These are going to be poor (less than the Z-FF). Against the ship mounted weapons of the period good to soak up one or two good hits before collapsing. Remember that specific and general reinforcing will be feeble because of lack of available power.

Ablative armour: How much is carried depends on hull size and what internal systems it will replace (weight).

Tractor Beams: Not much power to play with so maybe limited to one. Having a lot of Tractor Beams on anti-missile duty will reduce one's warship to a crawl.

Phaser 3: In point defence mode this will be the best defence against missiles primarily incoming from the forward arc. Each will require 1 unit of power to charge everytime it fends off a missile so the number and careful positioning of emplacements will need to be economical. 

Speed: Assuming that the enemy will be firing equally slow missiles, maintaining slightly faster than speed 12 will ensure that incoming salvoes astern are outrun. Overall the total battle power consumption of the warship design should allow a good speed with enough spare power to run a reasonable quantity of direct fire weapons plus the ship's essential systems.

Shuttles: On "Defend Me" some use against incoming missiles. On the downside no warp booster packs are allowed,  then only speed 6. Also size of ship will limit hangar to only 1 or 2 shuttles.

Typical enemies being faced....

Primarily other Kzinti during any frequent internal dispute.

Lyrans: Disrupters, Phaser 3, ESG?? (No models as of yet by anyone.)

Klingons: Photons, Missiles, Disrupters. (Models already well covered.)

Hydrans: Phaser 3, Fusion Beam. (No models as of yet by anyone).

Gorns: Plasma F, ?? (No models as of yet by anyone).

Carnivons: ?? (Waiting on Terradyne).

Hur'Q: Disrupters, Photons, Missiles, ?? (I've had a go at some basic concept playable models based on Donald Miller's SSD sugestions. He also managed to wrongly spell Hur'Q as "Hurck").

The Klingons have many ways to fry a cat. I prefer to use an L7 Fast Battlecruiser!!

Offline Terradyhne

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 09:39:17 am »

In answer to Terradyne, I've never seen the early modules for SFB. My last purchase was the Commander's Edition Volume III back in 1994.

Typical enemies being faced....

Primarily other Kzinti during any frequent internal dispute.

Lyrans: Disrupters, Phaser 3, ESG?? (No models as of yet by anyone.)

Klingons: Photons, Missiles, Disrupters. (Models already well covered.)

Hydrans: Phaser 3, Fusion Beam. (No models as of yet by anyone).

Gorns: Plasma F, ?? (No models as of yet by anyone).

Carnivons: ?? (Waiting on Terradyne).

Hur'Q: Disrupters, Photons, Missiles, ?? (I've had a go at some basic concept playable models based on Donald Miller's SSD sugestions. He also managed to wrongly spell Hur'Q as "Hurck").


If you never got one of the eraly years books, than you have missed something, with your interrest for those early periods.

correction to some of your weapons ideas, like they appear in the early years modules:

Lyrans: Disrupters, Phaser 2 and 3, ESG.

Klingons: no Photons, Drones, Disrupters, Phaser 2 and 3.

Hydrans: Phaser 2 and 3, Nova Cannon - predecessor to the Fusionbeam. (Grenadier early cruiser model made by me, you can get it here: http://sfc.battleclinic.com/docks/view.php?id=4708 ).

Gorns: Phaser 2 and 3, Plasma G, still Missiles and Lasers on some warp-refitted ships.

Carnivons: Phaser 2 and 3, Disruptor Cannon, Deathbolts - dronelike missile weapon, Heel Nipper - weapon to disrupt the warpfield of a ship and causing it to drop out of warp.



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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 03:46:16 pm »
I had nothing better to do today (too wet outside to work on motorcycles / the house / garden / etc.) so I came up with this....

Critique invited and expected....

« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 02:12:05 pm by Panzergranate »
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 08:50:29 pm »
Anyone who downloaded the Kzyff will probally notice that there is a flaw, which is now corrected....

I've downloaded Terradyne's Hydran model and I'm in the process of converting it over from SFC 2 to SFC 1....

Unfortunately, no version of SFC will let players insert new weapons such as Nova Cannon, etc. so we have to improvise with what weapons the game has.

I think that is LAN games a gentleman's agreement would allow a Fusion Beam to be used with a ban on overloads to approximate the Nova Cannon.

The goes for Disrupters regarding overloads as UIM and DERFACS would not be available back then.

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Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 08:37:49 am »
They look good except when I pull them into CV or milkshape half the polies in the rounded areas are gone. Any Ideas why?

Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 11:22:34 am »
I'm presuming it is because I used the Taldren sphere mesh for planets as the raw material for rounded object and the polies they used are square, not triangular.

I'm presuming here that Milkshape cannot deal with square polies??

Spheres are a lot of hastle to create so I decided to use the existing Taldren one as I doubt if I or anyone else could do better, let alone have the patience to do so.

They work in the game which is the important thing. I've had models that come out OK in Mod Viewer but don't appear right in game. Others that are perfectly OK in game but don't work in Mod Viewer or M6.

I have a few ideas for Kzinti naval support and auxilaries in my head now. Perhaps a comprehensive Kzinti Navy could be a future project. I've already modelled Kzinti barges which were used in a past LAN campaign plus corvettes, gunboats, skiffs and towships.

I just haven't rteleased them yet.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 02:24:37 pm by Panzergranate »
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Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2011, 08:53:26 am »
What modeling program are you using? most have the ability to create spheres and other primitive shapes preaty much to the poly count you want.

Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 10:04:05 am »
Believe it or not.... MFCSFCED (M6) which can do a lot more than folks give it credit for.

As its is specifically dedicated to SFC modelling (all version) it allows model creation in SFC 1, SFC 2 and SFC 3. It also allows conversion of a model from one version of the game to another, though that's where user skill and patience is needed. 

Just because its shareware and doen't cost a fortune doesn't mean that its crap....

Compared to the CAD software I was using 20 years ago, such as Auto Sketch V.3 and V.3.5, it is very easy to use once one has the hang of it.

It is possible to create polys, place in or move hardpoints, place or move tractor beam points, change the size of the model, zoom in for closer detail, etc.

The only thing that it lack and totally need is a block area pick up for copy or delete. At the moment users have to highlight each desired poly in turn until a group is highlighted before manipulating them. If there is ever future version I hope that tis is included and in a manner that allows box and direction square 3D highlighting of polys.

MFCSFCED is downloadable from Battle Clinic.

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Offline Kreeargh

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 09:46:31 pm »
Believe it or not.... MFCSFCED (M6) which can do a lot more than folks give it credit for.

As its is specifically dedicated to SFC modelling (all version) it allows model creation in SFC 1, SFC 2 and SFC 3. It also allows conversion of a model from one version of the game to another, though that's where user skill and patience is needed. 

Just because its shareware and doen't cost a fortune doesn't mean that its crap....

Compared to the CAD software I was using 20 years ago, such as Auto Sketch V.3 and V.3.5, it is very easy to use once one has the hang of it.

It is possible to create polys, place in or move hardpoints, place or move tractor beam points, change the size of the model, zoom in for closer detail, etc.

The only thing that it lack and totally need is a block area pick up for copy or delete. At the moment users have to highlight each desired poly in turn until a group is highlighted before manipulating them. If there is ever future version I hope that tis is included and in a manner that allows box and direction square 3D highlighting of polys.

MFCSFCED is downloadable from Battle Clinic.

 MFCSFCED (M6) Rules. 1999 -2011 still in use ! Many tryed to get me off the m6 but screw that if it dont work in m6sfced it dont work in sfc. :angel:   Thats me   :angel:
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2011, 12:42:24 am »
It does have moments when I want to head butt the screen.... Usually when trying to highlight awkward polys that either need copying, morphing or deleting

But I've had head butt the screen moments with expensive ECAD emulation suites, compilers and every version of Windows I've ever owned.

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Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2011, 02:21:52 am »
Oh god - Cannot use that!
Yes, this is me being a snob, but I can't use anything but my max setup - my workflow is too closely tied to its functions.
Props to those who can pull it off.
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2011, 02:48:40 pm »
I'm the same with ECAD software.... I'm a ace with Proteus and not with anyuthing else. It becomes instinctive so I don't like to change.

I worked as a designer at one place and they used that God awful Protel ECAD.

I brought in Proteus, which I also use at home, drew up a whole 68000 comupter design, wrote some assembly code and compiled it and then ran the whole thing in virtual reality. It was running and flashing virtual LEDs on the screen, interacting with the mouse and keyboard plus allowing virtual voltages to be taken, virtual heat measurements to be taken and simulating in real time.

The bosses pretty much understood why I thought Protel was crap.... it could only design circuit boards, not emulate them as well.

Yes, they were totally gob smacked....

By the end of the day they'd obtained a licence for Proteus from the Lab View and it was installed on the design computers there.... no more building dodgy prototypes after that.

Unfortunatley though, damned expensive is Proteus!! Quality costs money....

Due to being broke or wasting money on motorcycles, beer and women (actually only women contribute to wasting money as a motorcycle always guarantees a good ride and beer speaks for itself), I can't afford anything like 3D Max and cannot justify owning it just for an occasional hobby. Software that expensive needs to have a work based motive for me to buy it.

I'll muddle along with M6 in the meantime.

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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 02:21:34 pm »
Spent 10 minutes last night converting Terradyne's H-GRN from SFC 2 to SFC 1. Most of the time was fettling the SFC 2 shiplist entrey to fit into the SFC 1 SFBSPC13.TXT specs file.

Tried it out against an original D4 under my control and ended up being owned. The next time round I stood off an pelted it with missiles with little effect. It isn't something to be engaged with a single Klingon period cruiser....

 
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Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 03:34:55 pm »
Might explain why it took so long for the Klingons to put a real hurting on them ;)

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Re: Ideas For Early Kzinti Warships.
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2011, 11:40:24 am »
or maybe my settings for it where a bit better than those of the original SFB version  :angel:



"there will be no better worlds with human presence as mankind tends to ignorance, intolerance and selfishness, despite they tell you about themselves"