Topic: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.  (Read 10377 times)

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Offline Panzergranate

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Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« on: November 09, 2011, 10:17:10 am »
These are my models of the old frigate and old destroyer derived from the SFB SSD downloadable from his website.

Needless to say, visit the website to download the SSD for each vessel.

I ultra kitbashed Cleeve's Discovery model to such a degree that you can only recognise by the textures that originated from it.

Both these ships are meant to represent the frigate and destroyer starships in service alongside the Texas class light cruiser. Both represent a similar design policy and ethos. They also match the outline on Donald Miller's SSD diagrams.

Both are intended to exist in the TOS and SFB timeline, though by the TOS period they are relegated to Star Fleet's Customs Patrol, anti-pirate escorts and cadet training.

The history of the vessels is on Donald Miller's website.


 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 03:19:42 pm by Panzergranate »
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Offline atheorhaven

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2011, 12:55:59 pm »
Just wanted to mention..

Glad to see someone is showing the old Feddies some love... usually anything out there is TOS to post-Nemesis.  But I kind of like the old "flying milkjug" look of the early stuff.  Really gives the whole "butt strapped to a seat and flying by the seat of the pants" type feel instead of the "taking out the family car for a ride" feel of TNG.  :)
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2011, 01:15:17 pm »
I like the unorthodox, less technologically polished and rougher round the edges starships too.

That's probally why I seem to be drawn to modelling naval auxilaries, support ships, trawlers, tugs, freighters, star survey ships, etc.

I'm planning to have a go at the Rich Sternbach Canopus star survey ship (2245) next, having studied the original and other folks illustrations of the vessel.

I've no idea where the NAR (as opposed to NCC) registry started and at which level of numbers these naval auxilaries had reached by TOS. In Voyager the "Raven" had an NAR registry with a 5 digit number.

I would presume that the Canopus class would be overseen and fly exploration missions for UESPA in TOS.

In the TOS Episode "Of Bread And Circuses" perhaps the crashed class 4 stardrive exploration vessel, commanded by R.M.Merrick, was possibly a Canopus class starship.

That's the next project.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 03:23:41 pm by Panzergranate »
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Offline marstone

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2011, 01:53:42 pm »
now these would be the 'refit' old style frigates and destroyers.  As the original OCL was a sublight ship and the warp engines were added later.
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 03:04:01 pm »
And I also did the sublight non-warp powered version which, by TOS, were being used for colony system security and tarif collection / freighter inspection by customs, cadet training, etc.

I didn't put it in any pictures but the sublight version of the frigate does exist.

There is no sublight version of the destroyer as these vessels were upgrades of the sublight frigate.

As can be surmised, the forward section, whiich is detactable under thruster power, in a brown alert situation involving the engineering section, is where the crew, weapons and life support is placed whilst the rear section carries all the power plants, engines, fuel, etc.

The shuttle bay is accessable from the underside of the habitat section.

Armament, for those of you too lazy to download the SSD, is 1 x Photon FA (Warp powered ships only), 1 x Drone A, 2 x Phaser 2 RS / LS. For earlier versions replace the Photon tube with another Drone A and replace Phaser 2 with Phaser 3, delete transporter to suit period / timeline. Do the same for the tractor beam emitter.

Both ships are capable of powered landing on planets.

I'm wondering if a Battleship could be extrapolated from this design. I would have to start from the sublight design and then convert it to warp power.... another project, another day....

 
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Offline marstone

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2011, 03:11:13 pm »
I wouldn't think they would have had a battleship at that time.
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Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2011, 05:45:43 pm »
Youd realise that the design would be nearly 200 years old by TOS times if it predates warp drive and would have been in its 90s during the Earth Romulan war. Wouldn't make her a better UESPA canidate then a line ship?

Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 11:17:10 am »
Notice that I portrayed the ships in combat with un-rebuilt Klingon D4 cruisers. This places the action around the late middle 2100's.

The ships were originally launched to serve in the UEN's home defence fleet in the 2130's. As the home fleet never leaves the Sol star system, like the Texas class CL that later served in this fleet, there was never a need to fit warp drive to any of these vessels until the outbreak of the Romulan War in 2258. 

In Donald Miller's plausable explaination as to why a few still exist in the SFB TOS period is that they were saved from being scrapped or use as range targets was by Star Fleet's customs and revenue division for anti-smuggling an tarif collection patrols within certain star systems. The SSD sheets are for the Customs fleet upgraded versions. The weaponry and warp power would have been considerably different when in naval service.

Prior to this they had been cadet training ships and prior to that, served with the Police divison until being replaced by the more capable Leviathan class F-POL cutter.

They're naval service ended with the introduction of the Burke class frigate and Saladin class destroyer.

They had been systematically refiited with various warp engine upgrades from Y-65 onwards whilst in naval service.

If one takes the examples of the freighters SS Horizon and SS Fortunate, in ENT, as examples of the limits of the warp engine technology in the period when the ODD and OFF were originally launched by the UEN, it becomes clear that anything larger in mass than a cruiser would have serious problems achieving any sort of useful warp speed. Both freighter can only achieve warp 1.8 if pushed and only briefly.

For star system defence, primarily the Sol system, the UEN would most likely deploy sublight monitors, in the home fleet, to provide volume firepower instead of severely underpowered dreadnaughts and battleships. It isn't until the UFP is established that a need for capital ships is required to defend far off colonies, etc.

Given the constituants of the Romulan fleet in 2158, it would be possible for the UEN to fight the entire war without recourse to a capital starship and rely heavily on frigates and destroyers supported by the odd cruiser.
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Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 06:53:16 pm »
Personally I never liked the way ENT muked up the tech. I prefer the simpler and more logical proggesion of The SFM. In that context The warp refit for the Texas could instaed refer to an upgrade from a low speed fusion powerd FTL To a more modern M/A Driver during or after the war. Or the design could have had both FTL and NON FTL variants in the early days. FTL operations had diliberating effects on the spaceframe so the sublight hulls would have had a longer shelf life then the early warp capable models. The thought process of them starting life as a kind of system defence monitor and growing into the role of full warship is a good one though.

Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2011, 09:59:12 am »
Yes ENT kind of contradicted a lot from TOS and TNG, epecially Geordies statement that safe lifeform transpoter operations didn't occur until the early 23rd century.

ENT did have folks using transporters with unpleasant side effect, to begin with to keep with TNG canon, but there were occasions where beaming folks all over the place becomes as safe as it is in TOS. The writers seems to have forgotten that its "dodgy" technology at some point.

Perhap there are long term health effects, as with smoking, handling asbestos, excess drinking of spirit alcohol, marriage (for men), etc.

Maybe Archer will sucumb and die of cancer or something.
   
The NX class frigate is supposed to be the most expensive and state of the art starship the UEN has produced, which then raises the question as to what was serving alongside it and what came before??

There are sudden quantum leaps in millitary technology, take the sudden breakthrough change to AFVs during the 1920's when armour protection changed from hardened steel to nickel and copper based rolled homogenous armour, made possible by the invention of the electric arc furnace. RHA gives more than 3 x the protection as the same thickness of hardened steel.

It is clear that, based on the censored information given by the Vulcans, the UN would have realised the need for some sort of naval defence force to provide protection, search and rescue and to conduct scentific exploration. When exactly did the technolgy become available to provide vessels large enough to carry a large enough crew and meaningful weapon system is another question??

Zefferam Cochrane's early warp flights were on a par with the Wright brother's early achievements. There would need to be huge advances in life support systems, ship construction and all the little things that add up to cause problems to deal with.

Anybody want to hazard a guess as to which decade??

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Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2011, 10:34:23 am »
of all the times my computer decided to crap out - I had some pre-tos thoughts I was working on before it died. The files are fine, but I won't be able to show them off for a few days.

Good thoughts, though.
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2011, 11:24:11 am »
I'm a hard drive data recovery expert.... I have equipment here that can retrieve data from even cracked, drilled or fragmented platters.

I'm an electronics design engineer normally by profession, but I've been around hard drive technology so long that I can remember when the sound of a head crash made people dive for cover because the warp core sized hard drive was about to explode shrapnel everywhere.

If you ever have the money try to find and buy an EIDE factory hard drive programming card. They ARE the most expensive card you can ever put in any PC and cost about the same a brand new non-Chinese 50cc moped or scooter. You cannot use the PC for anything else once it is converted into a factory rig. You cannot run an operating system, CD or DVD drive either.

Owning and knowing how to use a PC converted to use a factory hard drive reprogramming card will make you a god amongst IT mortals..... expect to be worshipped and gain many "friends".
 
The card allows access to the TASK 0 and TASK 1 pins that normal PC controllers are not allowed to.

The card hijacks the machine during post and interogates the drive attached, even if a normal PC refuses to acknowledge its existance.

It will then display info on the hard drive with the settings the drive thinks it is, according to its own flash memory settings, and what it really is regarding tracks, heads and sectors. Interleaf, blocking off of damaged heads, size changees, etc. are also programmable now.

The drive can be programmed to be what it should be. It is also possible to replace the controller board on the drive with another of a similar make but different capacity and reprogramme it to accept its new home.

67% of all hard drive failures are down to the drive's flash memory loosing its factory settings and reverting to a type 1 10 Mb. or some other default. To your PC this flag up as invalid media during post.

All your work is still there just that you've lost the key to reach it.
   
If I lived locally I'd come an fix it for free as I only charge for business calls according to how desperate the client is to retrieve their data....

There will be at least one person in your state who will have this available to reset your hard drive so that you can continue to use the drive or salvage everything to another drive. There are usually at least a couple of dozen hard drive specialists in every country with PCs use globally. You'll just have to look one up and have your drive's flash memory reset or a new controller board fitted.

If it was a Quantum Fireball, which have a habit of living up to their name and catching their controller boards on fire, finding another donor without the same fault will be a problem. I have managed to fit a 6.4 Gb. Fireball controller to a 20 Gb. drive once and it worked.

A little off topic but maybe somebody will find the info useful and might make a living for themselves out of it.

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2011, 11:26:43 am »
Nah, the data is all fine - the harddrive is fine - the windows install just got borked and I needed to reformat. Luckily I had another HD sitting around, so I put windows on that. Now I've just got to sludge through and get all the old stuff off the old drive.
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2011, 11:49:36 am »
When I build a new machine or upgrade the drive, the old Drive C becomes the new Drive D, with the operating system removed.

There are just times that Windows will refuse to run on a particular drive for reasons only known to Microbodge.

I've a few like that which refuse to accept a newer version of Windows, depite being more than large enough to do so.

I've changed the inetrleaf to even, low level formatted them, changed it back to odd again, low level formatted them yet again, changed there apparent drive size by locking out heads and tracks, etc. which will alway kill any boot sector virus no matter how clever it is, but the damned things refuse to accept the newer Windows and run properly.

One of the PCs here runs a 2 Gb. drive as C and a massive drive for D because the large drive won't take Windows and run. Where I'm sat in the house, at the moment, I'm kind of surrounded with PCs with a few of them just for running SFC for on LAN. One is Vista, others are Windows Migraine Edition, which actually runs SFC sweetly on LAN.

I've wasted so many hours, over the years, trying to circumvent Windows problems and hastles that now I have just learnt top accept that it doesn't want to do what it is supposed to do and go for a quick fix option.
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Offline Khalee1

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 05:10:27 pm »
Very nice ships but how bout a link to his web site so I can check things out.

Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 05:24:39 pm »
There are sudden quantum leaps in millitary technology, take the sudden breakthrough change to AFVs during the 1920's when armour protection changed from hardened steel to nickel and copper based rolled homogenous armour, made possible by the invention of the electric arc furnace. RHA gives more than 3 x the protection as the same thickness of hardened steel.

Yea but the NX is like going from horse and buggy to a Nuclear powered Aircraft Carrier without any of the interveining steps

Quote
It is clear that, based on the censored information given by the Vulcans, the UN would have realised the need for some sort of naval defence force to provide protection, search and rescue and to conduct scentific exploration. When exactly did the technolgy become available to provide vessels large enough to carry a large enough crew and meaningful weapon system is another question??

Zefferam Cochrane's early warp flights were on a par with the Wright brother's early achievements. There would need to be huge advances in life support systems, ship construction and all the little things that add up to cause problems to deal with.

Anybody want to hazard a guess as to which decade??

I would guess that any meaningfully large and long range starship would take at minimum 60 to 75 years. But I don't think M/A drives would come along untile the war. Like the Atomic Bomb I doubt the the political will existed to spend the need funds until there a reall military need. There are a number of different things that would have to come togeather just for an M/A drive to be pratical. The biggest of which is the mass production of and storage of Antimatter.

Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2011, 01:51:57 pm »
Storing anti-matter does present a critical hit hazard on any ship. I could see the United Earth Navy being unhappy with this stuff on ships. The containment technology is a large maintainance overhead with huge potential for accidents.

Stored Deutronium or Helium 3, for Laser Initiated Fusion, Plasma Taurus Fusion or Sub Attomic Unified Impulse Fusion reactors would just leak, not immediately react with the ships surroundings and vapourise it.

Using a Fusion based power source does limit range, power yields and the size of warp coils you can supply plasma to, which in turn limits the size of ship you can throw a warp field around.

The differences in power yields would be the same as that between coal and oil fired boilers on warships in WW2. The Japanese had high pressure destroyers capable of exceeding 50 knots, which were oil fired. By comparison, the US still fielded 1930's coal fired Clemison class destroyers with a best speed of 28 knots. The subsequent Fletcher class were oil fired and made 38 knots.

Star Trek technology regarding warp drive, is loosely based around steam power and radio theory. The warp engine (boiler) powers the nachelles (turbines or pistons) which produce (like a radio antenna) the warp field which in turn creates the cochrane waves (radio antenna produce radio waves from a polarised electromagnetic field).

Gene Roddenberry's role in the airforce as a bomber navigator would have also meant he would have had training as the ad hoc wiireless operator in his aircrew.

Generally fanon tries to fill in the gaps in canon and attempts to answer the many posed questions that the writers have left unexplained, contradictions, etc.

So to sum up, the questions posed regarding the pre-ENT to ENT UEN, would be:

What power sources available and when??

What is the largest practical warp engine that could be supplied by the power source??
 
The type and size of the warp nachelles or warp collar rings (as with the Vulcans) being used.

Overall efficiency of the whole essemble with regards to starship hull size and mass (Movement cost in SFB / SFC).

As the warp engine and nachelles also have to project a mass reducing subspace field in order to reduce continuum drag and cheat relativity when on whatever sublight drive means is in use, given a size of warp engine (in boxes) and the movement cost the largest practical hull size possible (limits) can be arrived at.

It should also be possible, without a warp engine, to generate a mass reducing subspace field to increase a ship's sublight speed (allowing impulse only ships to move slightly faster than speed 1 without warp drive assistance). Has anybody calculated the increase in speed Chief O'Brien managed with DS9  (The Emissary) using the deflector generated subspace field?? It reduced a few months into hours though they were using thrusters. I'd need to know the distance between Bayjor and the Wormhole plus the time differences between with and without a sub space assisted movement.

If such knowledge was available back in 2100, it is quite possible that impulse only starships with subspace assistance could have been constructed to patrol the Solar system.

In SFB / SFC how would that be related to a ship's movement under impulse power?? A reduction in cost to 0.5?? A reduction in movement cost to 0.25?? One would allow an impulse power only ship to move speed 2 and the latter speed 4.

In game tests with impulse only ships speed 1 ships make playing them ponderously slow, poorly agile sitting ducks to the more nimble Romulan ships. Once all the missiles are expended trying to keep a target in range and in firing arc with a direct fire weapon is extremely difficult. Power for weapons, defences and making repairs is also limited and takes player management. Bot ships struggle and stop frequently. UEN players restricted to "Circle the wagons" defence strategy.

Both human and bot Romulan opponents drop in and out of range to attack and retreat to recharge.

Increasing the speed capability to 2 or even 4 makes quite a difference in playability. The targets can be brought and maintained in firing arcs both quicker and longer. Slightly better strategies with the possiblity to have the initiative.

An impulse drive only warship, with deflector induced subspace field assistance would be a viable option for solar system defence. So what would it look like??

Remember that it only takes light 10 hours to reach Pluto from the Earth. A ship travelling at 1/30th light speed (SFC speed 1) would reach Pluto in 300 hours, something that NASA would be content with today.

 
 
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Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2011, 10:04:00 pm »
Using the Deflector for that purpose woudn't be practical in the early days of FTL travel for a large number of reasons. The simplest reason though is because the deflector was need to do its primary job. The space of our solar system is loaded with dust leftover from the system's formation. All of that stuff's got to be moved. Thats what led to early regulations against going to warp insystem.

Another consideration is the limtations on FTL travel suport tech imposed by Subspace Field Generator development. While warp drive is by far the most well known, it is not the only shipboard system that uses them on modern starships. 24th century starships have SFGs tied into just about every major system, They are even in the combages, but in the 22nd century this was not the case. The state of the materials tech development in the 22nd century ment that field generator coils were large and t. This means no FTL processors, limited or no subspace sensors, limited or no FTL comms (all things by the way that ENT messed up) and limited or no shields at warp. Also M/A warp plasma is corrossive so warp coils desgined for a fusion powered drive will be quickly (quickly being a relitive term) render inopperable in a M/A drive. Drive coils set to last 10 or 20 years could be worn out in as little as 6 months.

There is also the infatructure of longrange travel. Without a large single goverment to do this it is highly unlikly that infastructure would be inplace to suport deep range exploration on a large scale much less free trade between systems of the different races. It would be like early 16th century world exploration on earth. No help and no hope of rescure if things go wrong and it would take a long long time to get anywhere. The suport side is somewhat mitigated if early ships use fusion powered warp drives on 2 fronts. The need to carry large quantities of fuel will mean corespondingly large amounts of space to set aside for cargo. Also hydrogen can be found in large quantities in most large gas giant plantes which apear to be very common. M/A warp drives might allow for smaller faster ships but without the sensors to see far enough ahead and computers that think fast enough to react to the rapidly changing situation an M/A driven ship can't saftly travel faster then it's fusion powered counterparts. One simple can't make that kind of quantum leap in drive tech without a firm foundation in other tech and since warp drive seams to dive the development of these other systems it is logical to assume that fusion warp drives would persist for a long time after warp drive was discovered.

With that in mind I expect it would go somthing like this. we know it took roughly 50 years to repair the damage of WWIII and form a unified goverment. The UE Starfleet was probably formed late in this process because bearing the cost of running such an organisation simply wouldn't have been possible sooner. The UESF would have started out much like the Coast Gaurd. Primarily tasked with protection and policing of local matters and commerce. Out of system traffic would have been rare but not nonexistent. Early efforts for exploration and colonisation would likely have been primaraly commercial ventures, not goverment funded. Again these wouldn't have begun till late in this first 50 year period for simalar reasons. Also they would have started out consentating in the Sol system mainly because thats where the closest and most costeffective to get at resources would be.

2115 would be a likly starting point for the transision from recovering starsystem to forming a small regonal power. Strategic security concerns coupled with curiosity would have led to the exploration of nearby starsystems probably starting around 2100. While any goverment is going to conduct or fund research into better tech for there fleets it is unlikly that public oppinion would support a major military buildup without a direct certified threat. Think USA during the 1930's. They would be more insular and wanting to consentrat on domestic issuse and problems like restoring the enviroment and such.

The first extra solar instalations would likly have been established in support of this limited security based exploration and to help secure unclaimed space as a buffer zone and for future exploitation. with these intalations inplace extrasolar comercial ventures would seam less risky and would begin expanding outward. the period between 2w100 and 2150 would see research consintrated in areas like improved materials and maufacure for SFG field coils and FTL sensor and comm antenna. Also fusion reactor size and efficiency would be maximised.  The UESF would have grown into a true interstelar navy but would likly still think like a costal defence force. At this point human expansion has gone on for 50 years with no real roadblocks. Other then the Orion pirates humanity had yet to encounter a space faring advanced overtly hostile race. In that regaurd human starships would have been large but not designed for heavy ship to ship combat or projecting power into hostile territory.

Then came the Romulans. It is likly that First Contact between humanity and the Romualns happend several years before the outbrake of war. It is also likly the this ended badly. These events had to happen early in the decade, no later then midd 2153 inorder for there to be time for the fleet's focuse to shift enough for the UESF to not be overrun in total early in the war.

Quote
What power sources available and when??

Fusion power for sublight and warp till the war. Early in the war Earth would develop a practical M/A warp reactor for ship board use. Antimater production, storage, and the basics of M/A recartor design would have had to be worked out earliery; say in the last 5 to 10 years.

Quote
What is the largest practical warp engine that could be supplied by the power source??

By this time reactor size would have far less to do with increasing warp speed. Fusion plasma can only get so energetic so improving coil efficiency would be the primary means of improving warp proformance. Larger coils would also yeild a marginally more powerful field but would requier alot more drive plasm there by lowering the fuel efficiency of the system and lowering range. Over ceartain profomance envelopes the increased proformance might overcome fuel use penalties but this would be a very narrow range. Warp field Dynamics would be an emergent field of study as engine efficiency alone is now unlikly to yeild large proformance inhancement. Warp speed would not likly exeed warp 3 by much if at all. and ships ammount to large flying gas tankes to feed there large Fusion reactors for both warp and impulse speeds.

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The type and size of the warp nachelles or warp collar rings (as with the Vulcans) being used.

I would expect that they would be small compared to modern Necelles. Coil manufacturing is time consuming and difficult making it expensive. Large necells would almost be an extravagence. The warp collar to me points even more to a fusion power system then traditional necelle systems. On could easily see an advanced Plasma Taurus Fusion reactor occuping part of this space and shortening the distance beween reactor and coils to the absolute minimum and making the most of a single large super coil made up of smaller matched segments.

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Overall efficiency of the whole essemble with regards to starship hull size and mass (Movement cost in SFB / SFC).

Well Fusion ships will trend towards big and be massive coming in well over the half million mark and pushing 400m+. Warp and sublight menuvering will suck hard core. Once you have M/A drives ships get fast enough that field flow and subspace drag forces become a real problem but they don'[t need to be nearly as large.

Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 11:52:00 am »
All good points and cover many of the issues with early warp space flight.

Note that plasma cannot be corrosive as it is not acidic or alkaline. It is super hot so the term you wanted was errosive as it also has an abrasive property due to its excited state and forced flow.

Even in the age of steam, sail was the majority propulsion system despite being tempremental (doldrums), slower and dependant on travellingalong set routes (trade winds).

Errodable armour would be the priciplal defence against small object impacts at sublight speeds.

In the Rich Sternbach's "Space Flight Chronology" the UN commisons the solar fleet primarily to conduct search and rescue missions inside the solar system and maintain navigational equipment. Even during the start of warp powered exploration, naval vessels are still fusion and ion propelled with only a few scouts actually warp powered.

As far back as the DY-100 class fission propelled ships, Sternbach portrayed that the collison avoidance system was magnetic sweeps that removed dust and objects in the path by linear magnetic tractive effort.

Such a system would probally cope at 1/30th of light speed but not anything faster.

At warp speed any object entering the warp field has a synchronised velocity and direction with the ship producing the field. Its like throwing a brick into thje back of a passing pick up truck.... the brick adopts the speed of the truck and moves with it. The brick may slide about and contact other objects in the back of the pick up truck but its velocity, with regards the other objects in the truck will only be relative to each other and not in relation to the outside world from where they came.

If you threw a brick at a passing starship travelling at warp speed the brick would still retain the momentum energy you gave it when it entered the warp field but it would be isolated from the rest of the universe and move with the direction of the ship. (Golf ball rolling across the roof of a moving car).

If it misses the ship inside the warp field it will pass out the otherside , still carrying the velocity placed on it when it was thrown, but at a distance greater than could be achieved in the outside universe with the velocity it carries.

If an impact occurs between the ship and the brick inside the warp field, the impact velocity will be solely of the brick as the ship has a relative velocity of zero whilst projecting the warp field.

This was the problem caused by the asteroid caught in the Enterprise's warp field in ST The Movie. Inside the warp field the asteroid and the ship still had gravitational attraction with each other. The asteroid was moving at warp speed inside the field causing an overload of the warp drive as it struggled to project a field around both.

Obviously a decent navigational system or when you have one, someone taking notice of it, can prevent such occurances. This is probally why Star Fleet bans warp drive usage within the gravitational and orbital plain of any star system. Actually wasn't that Deckers's issue with Kirk's order to go to warp speed within the solar system??

The problem with converting non-warp ships to warp drive is on a par with trying to convert piston engined aircraft to jet propulsion. It'll work but not in a very satisfactory fashion.

There would be two distinct types of starships.... those designed for warp drive from scratch and those converted to warp drive. The latter would have poorer warp speed performance, power consumption and fuel efficiency. 

Presumabily warp coils are constructed of some super conductor materials (as in they have an electron propogation velocity factor better than 0.999999999999999999999 with gold at 0.99, copper at 0.98, alluminium at 0.97 with 1 being light speed).

Obviously with Earth not yet venturing outside the solar system, such materials that are required to make the warp coils will be of limited supply.

Deep space exploration missions, sponsored by NASA's successor UESPA, would have taken years of preparation  and expense. The loss of the SS Valiant (TOS Where No Man Has Gone Before) approximately 30 years before ENT would have been quite a blow and very discouraging. References to earlier Terran failures are made in ENT by the Vulcan delegation when they voice their objections to the NX programme.

Weaponry would be mainly missile dependant. If one's targets are, hopefully, as technologically limited and as slow as one's own warships and power is at a premium, missiles are a cheap and effective weapon system.

Direct fire weapons require power to operate. Targetting computers are required to calculate deflection angles, time dilation effects and fire the weapons (unlike the laughable fantasy of manually aimed Star Wars weaponry). Sensor and scanner systems capable of operating at relativistic speeds, including time dilation corrections, would also be more needed for direct fire weapons than missile system, which could carry their own independant systems.

Any direct fire weapons would be mainly for point defence against incoming enemy missiles.

RADAR and LIDAR could cope with the slower end of relativistic speeds but I think that even if Gateway's Super Amiga (NASA's computer system of choice) was the computer system installed, running the QNX Neutreno operating system, no computer would be able to cope with the reaction times needed as the speeds increased to half light speed. If Microsoft was involved you'd have to rely on crew members looking out the windows to spot enemy ships.

We could assume that between 2068 and 2120 some of this has been resolved, with some Vulcan help.

The placement of the warp reactor as close to or partially into the warp collar does explain the Vulcan starship design ethos in ENT. Note that the fuel and reactor are all at the bottom of the ships with the ring attachment at the same location. somebody's already reasoned this out when they designed the Vulcan ships for the show.

I would go for self contained fusion power source, warp reactor and warp coils all in a nachelle as a bolt on module, a bit like a big outboard motor that could be attached to anything, even a raft. It might not be very efficient but it does allow an instant warp drive conversion even to a DY-100. These could be mass produced, along with other essential sensor and scanner upgrades, as a kit of modularised parts. It would be the quickest way to convert a sublight fleet to rudimentary warp drive.

As for speeds attained on earlier starships, the Fortunate is quoted to reach warp 1.6 and the Horizon warp 1.8 in ENT. Both of these freighters is over 40 years old by 2156. If by 2156 the best speed is warp 5.2, a graph could be drawn from 2110 to 2156 to give an estimate of what, at best, could be expected.

Using the SFB / SFC Romulan impulse powered Warbird and Snipe as the benchmark of how many boxes of warp engine power would be represented by a fusion warp engine, in SFC terms, and guaging the relative hull sized proposed in a design in relation to either the Warbird or the Snipe, you have the movement cost scale.

I've finished my Donald Miller SSD inspired old frigate model so here it is. I've created five versions to cover its varied service life in the UEN Home Fleet, UEN Star Fleet, UFP Star Fleet and UFP Customs Patrol, which is where Donald Miller had it pegged for SFB.

I runs fine in SFC 1. Anybody wants to convert it to SFC 2 or SFC 3 be my guest.

Note that I've also put in all the hardpoints, something I sometimes have to do with other folk's SFC 1 models....

 
The Klingons have many ways to fry a cat. I prefer to use an L7 Fast Battlecruiser!!

Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Donald Miller's Old Frigate & Old Destroyer For SFB.
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2011, 11:43:03 pm »
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Actually wasn't that Deckers's issue with Kirk's order to go to warp speed within the solar system??

No he was concered because Enterprise's engines where "untried" which is a simple way of saying they had skiped the non propulsive drive power up tests. which work out the balance problem and make sure critical componets won't fail.

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Presumabily warp coils are constructed of some super conductor materials (as in they have an electron propogation velocity factor better than 0.999999999999999999999 with gold at 0.99, copper at 0.98, alluminium at 0.97 with 1 being light speed).

Quoting from the TNG manual "The coils themselves are split toroids positioned within the nacelles. Each half-segment measures 9.5 x 43 meters and is constructed from a core of densified tungsten-cobalt-magnesium for structural stiffening, and imbedded within a casting of electrically densified verterium cortenide. A complete pair measures 21 x 43 meters with a mass of 34,375 metric tonnes. Two complete sets of 18 coils each masses 1,230,000 metric tonnes, acounting for close to 25% of the total starship mass. The casting process proved to be somewhat difficult to repeat reliably during the early phases of the Galaxy Class Project. Improvements in materials and procedures led to more exact copies for use in the spacecraft, though the installation of closely matched pairs of coils within a nacelle is still practiced. During coil refurbishment at a major starbase yard, the maximum time between the youngest and oldest coil should be no more than 6 months."

Intersting stuff man ;D