Topic: What is the kobyashimaru to you ?

[intermech]

I think Spock missed the test because he is the one that oversaw its creation.  I like the idea of different races being used as the baddies during the test depending on the political climate. What I never understood is how they think they would instill real fear in a situation that is essentially a glorified video game. I was disappointed with the way the test was portrayed in the new movie. It needed a more catch-22 feel to it. Also, leading up to it, they should have made you feel like Kirk was already captain when they started the scene, which would have felt right especially to the uninitiated. He could have beat it by talking a computer to death or enlisting the help of Abraham Lincoln or something as a throwback to the original series, and just when the audience is like wtf?!, you realize it was a test that he had manipulated and he was still in the academy. Lowering the shields of the enemy was lame and it implied that someone could actually win with tactical abilities or brute force. Before the new movie, I thought the outcomes would be among the following choices:

1. You save the freighter and the ship, but you started a war with the enemy - - you lose, you warmonger
2. You avoid intruding on enemy space but lose the freighter - - you lose, you coward
3. You save the freighter by sacrificing your own ship and crew giving the freighter time to escape - - you lose, you're dead

I enjoyed reading speculation on how others had dealt with the scenario:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru#The_Kobayashi_Maru_.28Original_Series_novel.29

How would you have done it?

EDIT: I guess you could instill fear if you made the player think he was really on his first training mission and up pops a distress call, then the cadet needs to make a decision whether to take on the mission him/herself and go off program. Then, the cheat Kirk would do is just knowing it was a test when others did not. That would technically be changing the parameters of the test . . . then you could get Kirk talking a computer simulated enemy to death, lol.

[Lieutenant_Q]

I've written the Kobayashi Maru as a no-win scenario that is not told to the cadets that it is a no-win scenario.  They take it, and lose.  Some will try to take it again thinking there's another solution, some will throw up their hands and say, "I'm not command material."  (Note that only Command Cadets took the test, the rest of the cadets in the test were simply there filling a few roles that the training staff (the ones that get "killed" in the scenario) don't.  They may get graded, but they get graded as to how they respond to the bridge flying apart around them.)  There's arguments on both sides for telling the Cadets whether it is a no-win scenario or not, I prefer not to tell them until well after the test, after they've had to stew in it for a bit.

[intermech]

On a much smaller scale, I had to take a no-win test in college. Everyone in the class failed the test. There was really no way to pass. We were told afterwords as part of an illustration, then we were told not to tell anyone who might take that class later. It was fun and really made the point.

[Kreeargh]

Guys, remember TNG, when Wesly had to take some test for the Academy, they pretended some explosion went off, a fellow cadet/personnel was injured, I haven't seen the episode in a very very long time, was that also Starfleets Kobayashimaru, or an addition to the one we saw in TMP??

Any thoughts

Adam

Same idea i posted  It was a Tos era thought even era now . 

[Kreeargh]

I think it's a great way to teach fresh new cadets reality... You come out the academy so cocky, so ready to conquer the world not realizing that you aren't invincible... Also teaches them to deal with loss and even when a captain has to make the choice to sacrifice a few for the many it teaches the crew to accept that loss bc of the greater good...

Adam

The Private / Grunt needs to learn this simple thought, Hell Every human needs to learn it!  Opps sorry all i need to 

[marstone]

I think it's a great way to teach fresh new cadets reality... You come out the academy so cocky, so ready to conquer the world not realizing that you aren't invincible... Also teaches them to deal with loss and even when a captain has to make the choice to sacrifice a few for the many it teaches the crew to accept that loss bc of the greater good...

Adam

ah, the simple reason why soldiers hate butter bars.

[Norsehound]

That TNG episode had one of Wes's squadron die because the squad leader wanted to push an illegal maneuver to boost his own ego on his way out of the academy. Similar in that it was a test of character, though winning was a matter of perspective. Loyalty to one's integrity and justice (betraying your friend for his selfish stupidity), or loyalty to your friends (lying in court to protect your buddy who got one of your squad killed).

I wouldn't have gone after the ship. I would inquire what they're doing out there, inquire if they were authorized to be in the sector with the nearest starbase, contact the belligerent power and request permission to go into the zone to retrieve the ship. If the ship blundered in there willingly then I'd remind the Maru that they are outside of Federation protection and violated the zone on their own free will with negligence of the consequences. At that point continue on course and leave the wailing anarchist hippies to their fate.

The scenario would probably put a VIP on the ship and force me to rescue it anyway, at which point I'd let the record show it went against my judgment and got the ship destroyed. I'd tell the smug admiral at the end that the decision was out of my hands at that point and the only thing tested would be my willingness to obey orders. Who really destroyed the ship was whoever put that VIP out there and let it cross the NZ without letting us know beforehand.

A navigation error that took the ship so far into enemy territory that I couldn't call on reinforcements or be back on the border within moments would indicate a trap (Since no trade route under Federation jurisdiction would logically go even near the NZ). If I'm still overrun that close to my border, then an enemy invasion must have coincided with the incident in which case it's not a test, but an exercise in cadet humiliation and a waste of everyone's time.

[intermech]

What about destroying the Kobyashi Maru? There is a good chance it is a trap. With enemies on board, you must destroy the Federation technology before if falls into enemy hands.

[Norsehound]

Ah, I see what you mean, my eyes skipped over 'pretend' and I read "cadet killed". This happens in The First Duty.

Captain Calhoun's solution from New Frontier was to destroy the Kobyashi maru on the logic that it was obviously a trap, and the crew were either already dead or better off dead than be prisoners of the Romulans. An unorthedox tactic to be sure, but I wouldn't be even going into the neutral zone to destroy the ship.

[Panzergranate]

Many times how we face death is more important then how we face life.

OK, Yoda. Deep thoughts, you have posted. Less Yoda-like and better written, is the second sentence.

Bravery is not the absence of fear, but channeling fear to a strength.

Allow me:
Bravery, the absence of fear is not, but to a strength, channeling fear.

Fixed that for you, I did.  Sorry, couldn't help it. But seriously, the second bit hits home on big issues in life and well said.

Oh, and what is the kobyashimaru to me? A dumb name for a ship, mostly.

We fear the manner of our death more than actually dying.

The worst death to experience is the slow and prolonged agony of a living death, a soul imprisoned in a useless and immobile body without hope, trapped by the cruel misplaced morality and blinkered stupidity of others, totally powerless to ever escape, praying that nature will take its course quickly.

One of the threats against Captain Archer, in Enterprise, is the intention of one of his enemies to leave the SS Enterprise, dead and powerless, in a decaying orbit around a hell world and let the crew suffer the dispair and hoplessness of their impending horrific fate. It is a good metaphor to aim at all those who oppose humane the euthanasia of the terminally ill.

Perhaps dealing with a dead starship in a decaying orbit around a hell world would have been a better character test.

Myself in that situation??

I'd personally destroy the life support system, open all the airlocks and give the crew a quick humane death rather than let them suffer in the burn up of re-entry.

[Kreeargh]

Many times how we face death is more important then how we face life.

OK, Yoda. Deep thoughts, you have posted. Less Yoda-like and better written, is the second sentence.

Bravery is not the absence of fear, but channeling fear to a strength.

Allow me:
Bravery, the absence of fear is not, but to a strength, channeling fear.

Fixed that for you, I did.  Sorry, couldn't help it. But seriously, the second bit hits home on big issues in life and well said.

Oh, and what is the kobyashimaru to me? A dumb name for a ship, mostly.

We fear the manner of our death more than actually dying.

The worst death to experience is the slow and prolonged agony of a living death, a soul imprisoned in a useless and immobile body without hope, trapped by the cruel misplaced morality and blinkered stupidity of others, totally powerless to ever escape, praying that nature will take its course quickly.

One of the threats against Captain Archer, in Enterprise, is the intention of one of his enemies to leave the SS Enterprise, dead and powerless, in a decaying orbit around a hell world and let the crew suffer the dispair and hoplessness of their impending horrific fate. It is a good metaphor to aim at all those who oppose humane the euthanasia of the terminally ill.

Perhaps dealing with a dead starship in a decaying orbit around a hell world would have been a better character test.

Myself in that situation??

I'd personally destroy the life support system, open all the airlocks and give the crew a quick humane death rather than let them suffer in the burn up of re-entry.

That is the test isnt it. Myself would try and figure out a way to save all lives and not feel pitty that if I couldnot do it atleast I tryed and learn from the experiance. The test the way I see it. I take from the test Dont ever give up anything fight or figure out a way or die trying.

[intermech]

Having recently been faced with a variation of the No-win scenario (though not life threatening, definitely lively-hood threatening), I think it is a test of your faith in your crew, your mission, and your values. Whether a no-win scenario actually exists, the very belief that there is no such thing as a no-win scenario drastically changes the actions you take. Only since the Kobyashimaru is an inherently philosophical subject, I would like to point to Kierkegaard's three stages of life, particularly the Knight of Faith and the Knight of Infinite Resignation. The Knight of Infinite Resignation realizes the situation is impossible, but will soldier on, following his duty to accomplish what he can despite the outcome. Though Knight of Faith realizes the impossibility of the situation he will actually believe it will be resolved, looking past the crisis point to the results of his actions.

Though I am far from it, I want to be a Knight of Faith and the Kobyashimaru is an excellent thought experiment to test that concept.

[Starfox1701]

That reminds me of my favorite B5 Quote.

"All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments of revalation. G'Quan wrote 'There is a greater darkness then the one we fight; it is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way.' The war we fight is not against powers or principalities; it is against chaos and dispair. Greater then the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us waiting in moments of transition to be born in moments of revalation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is only born in pain."

[Panzergranate]

In the Kobyashimaru test a French captain, with an all French crew, would have these options:

Run away immediately so as to have a good head start.

Failing the above tactic, unconditional surrender.

Colaborate.

Wait for British, American and Canadian crewed starships to come and rescue them.
 
Note that in TNG "mission to Farpoint" Picard's first instictive reaction, as a Frenchman, was to offer unconditional surrender to Q.

[Starfox1701]

In Jean Luc's defence he was just barrowing a page out of Capt. Kirk's play book. After all he is the only Starfleet Officer to ever surrender the whole federation.