Topic: Cardassians: The Early Years

[Captain Adam]

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[Terradyhne]

its not directly TMP its more lost Era but here is some info on an older Cardie http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/my_ships/lakat.htm
as you can see there, i even had made a model of it but thats one out of my early ones and has much flaws 

[Terradyhne]

Another question I wanted to ask was if anyone knows which sfb races are in each TNG empire... I know they are two separate universes but let's just say they weren't, which sfb races are in which TNG cannon territories....

Adam

this can't be answered that easy, even not cannon facts tell us all locations of the territories of all those races. cannon map of the galaxy is divided in quadrants and the SFB map is divided into Octants.
here is a link to a site with a map of those SFB races in, but i don't think that this is much more than pure speculation.
http://www.freewebs.com/uss_sequoyah_reference/maps.htm

[intermech]

Besides Atolm's great models, the closest thing to canon is the reuse of the Merchantman from Star Trek III as a Cardassian ship. Could it be argued that the civilians in STIII were using a Cardassian hull they bought or stole?

[Magnum357]

You know, I never thought about it until you mention it, but the Freighter in STIII does have a feel of an Early Cardasion design.  Might be a good basis for early Cardassian ships.  What does it matter anyways, the Freighter in STIII got totally destroyed anyways. 

As for a possible map of ST:TNG empires would look like with SFB races, thats kinda of a hard question to ask.  I use to have a diagram (by another Star Trek fan) that had a theory that over the course of time (the lost era I guess in Star Trek terms, like from 2300 to 2360's) some of the SFB empires got absorbed into empires we see later in ST:TNG.  For example, the Lyran empire finally mearged and was partially annexed into the Klingon empire.  Not exactly sure what happened to the Hydrans in this hypothetical map, but I think the author theorized that the Klingons finally wiped them out or there empire was reduced to a merely a hand full of starsystems at best.  According to the map I saw, another empire absorbed what was left of Hydran space in the TNG era.  The Gorn were still around, but again, there space was reduced, and of course it was closer to Cardassian space then how the SFB map is setup.  If I remember correctly, the ISC were hit hard by the Andros and the some other nearby empire by the time of TNG.  I can't remember exactly, but they were still around, but there sphere of influence was pretty much contained, no growth or regression.  Also, the ISC was much farther away on this map then even the SFB map had.  The Kzinti, by the time of the 24th century according to this author theorized that they were finally annexed into the Federation.  Seems hard to beleive with all the infighting and there treatment of prisoners.  The Tholians on this hypothetical map pretty much had the same postion as they do on the SFB map, and of course they were clearly still a minor power in the TNG era.  It was an interesting theory whoever made the map.  A lof of other empires rose a up by the TNG era and annexed alot of the SFB territory, it even had maps and diagrams of Delta Quadrant empires and such.

I came up with my own hypothetical map of what the "Alpha Territory" looked like during the main era of SFB (TOS I guess).  Its my best guess of what empires where around during that time period.  Also, you guys got to keep in mind that ADB does not have a "solid" timeline of when SFB occurs.  Y1 is merely a date that could be anywhwere in time and Federation Commander explains the events occur during the 25th century.  All of this is merely speculation now. 

Anways, here is the best map I could come up with.  I took out the Lyran and Hydrans mostly because I could never prove or disprove them in Star Trek.

[Magnum357]

I know some people may disagree, but I have always looked at Star Trek and SFB as seperate universes.   The histories of the two realities are so much different that trying to link the two is difficult at best.  Even Steve Cole of ADB does not consider TNG "offical", but then again, they are still debating what X2 ships are suppose to be so...

Consider my map my "best guess" of what TNG, DS9, and VOY might have with a possible link to SFB.  And even then, I could only base this map only with Basic Set and Advanced Missions.  Thats merely a fraction of all SFB material.

[marstone]

I know some people may disagree, but I have always looked at Star Trek and SFB as seperate universes.   The histories of the two realities are so much different that trying to link the two is difficult at best.  Even Steve Cole of ADB does not consider TNG "offical", but then again, they are still debating what X2 ships are suppose to be so...

Consider my map my "best guess" of what TNG, DS9, and VOY might have with a possible link to SFB.  And even then, I could only base this map only with Basic Set and Advanced Missions.  Thats merely a fraction of all SFB material.

It is not that Steve Cole doesn't consider TNG official, but he only has the rights to TOS so anything else doesn't matter to him.  So they are in my opinion not so much as separate universes as they are divergent universes.  have the same origin, but end up in different places.

[Magnum357]

Captain Adam, no problem.  I did a lot of research on SFB and Star Trek Timelines, and I came up with this map as my "best guess" if you try to relate the two universes together.  Keep in mind I set it up with a similar aspect to the Dynaverse's strategic map in SFC.  A friend and I came up with the concept that each hex represents roughly 20 lightyears of distance across.  This would not corespond with F&E hexes where each hex represents like 200 parsecs or something like that in diameter. 

In the map I made, the actual disatance between the Cardassian Union and say the Tholian Holdfast would probably only be a 1000 light years distance.  This would be more in scale to TNG's idea of how the Galaxy is configured.  If I remember correctly, the Federation only had explored nearly 10% of the Galaxy by the end of the 24th century.  This map would help support that idea then the origianal F&E map of ADB.  Like I said, its my "best guess".

[Lieutenant_Q]

Just a couple of nitpicks.

The Nausicans should be on the other side of the Cardassians, as they were around before the Cardassians, and fairly well established.  Well enough that they could mingle in a bar deep in Federation Space and stab a young Lieutenant Jean-Luc Picard.  (Enterprise also has them as pirates near Earth)

The Son'a at this point would still be in the Briar Patch, which is near the Klingon/Federation Border.  I had also believed that the Son'a had established their empire on the other side of Klingon Space, but I don't remember if I have anything to back that up with or not.

Other than that, it looks pretty good, I would expect the Cardassian Union of that era to be smaller, as they were at one point a much more peaceful people, whether this was before or after the Birth of the Federation is not known.

[Starfox1701]

Several of us A2 to guys did this a few years back as a TMP/TLE ship

[Starfox1701]

I don't see why not. The Acom team splitup but ingeneral we had a credit for use policy. JetFreak and Dan1025 are still active at MSFC if you want to check with other Acom members.

[Magnum357]

Just a couple of nitpicks.

The Nausicans should be on the other side of the Cardassians, as they were around before the Cardassians, and fairly well established.  Well enough that they could mingle in a bar deep in Federation Space and stab a young Lieutenant Jean-Luc Picard.  (Enterprise also has them as pirates near Earth)

The Son'a at this point would still be in the Briar Patch, which is near the Klingon/Federation Border.  I had also believed that the Son'a had established their empire on the other side of Klingon Space, but I don't remember if I have anything to back that up with or not.

Other than that, it looks pretty good, I would expect the Cardassian Union of that era to be smaller, as they were at one point a much more peaceful people, whether this was before or after the Birth of the Federation is not known.

Lietennant_Q, the reason why I put the Nauiscans on the other side of Cardassian terrotory was because we see a LOT of them in DS9.  And since DS9 was parked right next to Cardie territory, even though they are a ways away on that map from DS9, many Nauiscans could have migrated/traveled near that region much easier then next to Klingon Space.  I don't know why people have this notion to connect the Nauiscans and the Klingons together.  Was there a TNG ep. that linked the to races in some way?

I remember a few eps on DS9 (mostly from Dukat) that the Cardassians were quite empiralistic even during the "Lost Era".  It was described that they sparked fear in the nearby region and to there nearby neighbors.  I decided to put the Son'a, Nauiscans, and Breen near one side of Cardassian territory to bring the possibility that they have had conflicts with the Cardassians aswell.  Now this map is actually TOS/TMP era, but that is not too many years off of the "Lost Era" of Star Trek.  Its possible the Cardassians had already occupied quite a bit of territory (far away from Federation space) and had many wars with its neighbors say during Captain Archers time period. 

And keep in mind, the Son'a and Breen were both allies to the Cardassians during the Dominion War.  Granted, we really don't know if the Dominion War was going on all over the place in the Alpha Territory/Quadrant, but with this map, I decided to follow a logical pattern of how the Dominion War proceeded later, much like the evolution of how the General War proceeded in SFB.  With the Breen and Son'a nearby, the logistics of the war would have made much better sense then trying to put these two "secondary" powers near Klingon Space.  It was also reported that the Dominion at one point occupied Betazed which is why I tried to follow a pattern that the Dominion tried to move "Easternly" (on this map, that is) trying to reach the capitol of the Federation. 

I was not aware that the Briar Patch was near Klingon Space again.  Since there was no mention of it in SFB or in TOS Star Trek, I had to place the Son'a again near Cardassian Territory, hinting that the Briar Patch would be placed in uncharted territory of the TOS/TMP era as this map is suppose to discribe.  Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but since I have to use SFB as a basis on this stuff too, I can't just rely on other Star Trek Fans/websites to base this on.  I guess you could say that the map is mostly based on "Canon" Trek and SFB protocals (which is why its fairly vague to begin with, the more detail you put into the map based on sources, the more problems can occur).

You may be right however.  The Cardassian Union may have been smaller during the TOS/TMP era, the territory they occupy on this map just shows there "sphere of influence" in the region.  There might have been other minor powers within this "sphere of influence" that we never saw.  In SFB for example, the Early Years actually have quite a few races within each of the empires that we never saw later (or hardly saw later) that either merged with the later TOS empire or got wiped out/left.  Did you know the ISC were made up of five local races that combined together later? 

Anways, this map is just like I said, my "best guess" of a map that can relate to SFB and Star Trek. 

I like those early Cardassian ship models Starfox.  Something like that would work well for TOS/TMP era. 

[Lieutenant_Q]

The only TNG episode that I remember having the Naussicans in it was "Tapestry".  The one where Q takes Jean-Luc back to the point early in his career where he picks a fight in a bar and nearly gets killed.  Gets his artificial heart, which caused him a problem at the beginning of the episode.

Enterprise established the Briar Patch as being near the Klingon Frontier, but in Insurrection it was in Federation Space.  So sometime after the foundation of the Federation they managed to claim the area.  Either the Klingons showed no interest in it, or it was ceded to the Federation following a pre-TOS war.  Now the Son'a being beyond Klingon space is a conjecture, but since DS9 is the only series that took place around the time of their introduction, and we did not see them at all in the series (they were mentioned in Insurrection as supplying Ket'racel White to the Dominion, but I don't recall them even being mentioned in DS9)

All this of course is kinda moot.  In TNG it was somewhat established that the Klingons shared a border with the Cardassians.  But when the DS9 season 3 Cardassian-Klingon conflict broke out they changed it on a whim to being on the other side of Federation Space, forcing the Klingon supply lines to go THROUGH the Federation.  Otherwise I would imagine that the Dominion War probably wouldn't even have happened, as the Klingons would have had no reason to stop their advance.

[TAnimaL]

An interesting tangent, with some interesting ideas. Naturally, with ST, there are as many ideas to fill in the cracks as there are fans, and I offer some, not to argue but as alternatives...

Magnum, I don't know if this is the other fan-made map intergrating SFB & ST but it does some of the same as yours but thought  it might be

I also like the idea of the SFB races being absorbed/conquered/lost by the time TNG rolls around. Trying to intergrate SFB is tough, and the "divergent timelines" theory is a helpful work around - all the SFB races are "around" in "official" ST but not as big/powerful. For example, TAS had the Kzinti has a minor minor power with only police ships.

I'm pretty sure that Cole does, indeed, hate TNG et. al. and wouldn't touch it even if he could. Then again, I don't even think he likes Star Trek, just his own little version of it, but that's just my opinion.

The ST Star Chart published by Pocket did a pretty good job laying out the races that jive with this and Magnum's map but with a few differences, mainly that the Gorns are in the 6 o'clock position. I like that better, but I know that doesn't match the SFB/F&E layout; I just don't really use the Gorns myself

I came up with my own map, based on "my" alternate (Alternate alternate alternate?) timeline. A little sloppy, but I moved the Gorn down, turned the Cardassians a bit... Since this is a map of 3D space, some of the empires are "above," like the Tholians, Sheliak, Breen, and some "below," like the Deltan, Talarian, Trill.

I think the Son'a was actually pretty small, just the few planets they absorbed, and were closer to the Klingons. I included a "Kzinti" as per TAS (small, close to Earth, and the "Mirak"  as a different race, as per the SFC descriptions.

One thing that did get "established" is that races can get around Local Space, even if there's no direct borders. There's a reference to the Cardassians being in contact with the Vulcans before Kirk's time, we saw Ferengis cross paths with Archer's Enterprise... the Nausicaans could be nomadic or far-ranging, like the Hirogen were in Voyager, so their home could be far away yet you find them everywhere.

I'd love to see a TOS-style Cardassian ship or two, just as a random thing to run into. Design-wise, what would a Cadassian look like if it had been built in 1969, by the TOS effects crew for the Fourth season we never saw.

[Kreeargh]

   More maps please thoughts from anyone ?  Cardassians larger than other races  in pre tos ?   That could be another trek movie fan made or not ! 

[TAnimaL]

On a side note, as for the ISC being an organization comprised of multiple species, please do tell???

Well, it's in the manual...

Just because, here's the SFC version of the ISC (in txt), and the SFB version, taken from the "Prime Directive" RPG manual. For some reason, SFC adds the Meskeen race ?

FWIW, in SFB, the Klingons also have many other races in their empire. These races are second-class/subservient, but members of these races can and do serve in the military and can rise in rank - the Slidarians, a bear-ape-like race and the Hilidarians, a reptilian race, serve as the ground forces. In ST, I believe there's a few references to Klingon subject races but these are never seen.

 

[TAnimaL]

More maps please thoughts from anyone ?  Cardassians larger than other races  in pre tos ?   That could be another trek movie fan made or not ! 

I think there were some references the Cardies' epicness, but most of these were from Cardies, and "arrogance" seems to be a racial trait of theirs...

So many maps, so many directions... I like to find maps that connect real stars to those in Trek (one reason I liked the ST Charts book). An excellent site is http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/cartography.htm, which goes into great detail, if you've got the time... One thing you'll notice if you look at our area of the galaxy, there are some "bubbles" of interstellar gases, leftover from past supernovaes - in the jpg "map_real50" the yellow is areas of denser gases, blue is "emptier." If you line up these bubbles with the assumed postions of some ST worlds, it kinda makes sense why and how the empires are lined up, supposing the interstellar gas affects starship movement, travel times and such. I made an animated gif that superimposes the real and ST, or at least one idea of it.

[intermech]

A couple things to consider that may help reason through.

1. Migrations: as one power becomes stronger, it may push other peoples out of the way, like the Huns pushed the Germanic tribes into Roman's Territory. This may be why some races are not seen until TNG but are considered neighbors.

2. Dis-contiguous Federation: I am not sure that the Federation has to be one continuous clump. Unlike and empire that constantly expands from a central location, Federated planets do not have to be next to each other. In fact, you may even see planets in the middle of an oppressive empire seeking a kind of asylum with the Federation, which could cause quite a conflict.

3. 3D: though the Milky-Way is fairly flat, it is still many light years thick. It may be that when looking down on the galaxy, there is a lot of overlap.

4. Warp corridors: This would be a mind stretcher, but what if when you warp, it makes certain space closer than others. So, one distance in normal space may not be the quickest to warp to as it is in subspace. This could make a very poca-dotted set of territories. I am thinking of ST: Armada with the wormholes where you have to first use a wormhole to get to the other side of the map to find a wormhole to get back to an adjacent segment of space. Another game that demonstrates this really well is Conquest: Frontier Wars.

[Chrystoff]

A couple things to consider that may help reason through.

1. Migrations: as one power becomes stronger, it may push other peoples out of the way, like the Huns pushed the Germanic tribes into Roman's Territory. This may be why some races are not seen until TNG but are considered neighbors.

2. Dis-contiguous Federation: I am not sure that the Federation has to be one continuous clump. Unlike and empire that constantly expands from a central location, Federated planets do not have to be next to each other. In fact, you may even see planets in the middle of an oppressive empire seeking a kind of asylum with the Federation, which could cause quite a conflict.

3. 3D: though the Milky-Way is fairly flat, it is still many light years thick. It may be that when looking down on the galaxy, there is a lot of overlap.

4. Warp corridors: This would be a mind stretcher, but what if when you warp, it makes certain space closer than others. So, one distance in normal space may not be the quickest to warp to as it is in subspace. This could make a very poca-dotted set of territories. I am thinking of ST: Armada with the wormholes where you have to first use a wormhole to get to the other side of the map to find a wormhole to get back to an adjacent segment of space. Another game that demonstrates this really well is Conquest: Frontier Wars.

This is very good logic. I hadn't considered any of this, and it all makes perfect sense.

[Kreeargh]

On a side note, as for the ISC being an organization comprised of multiple species, please do tell???

Well, it's in the manual...

Just because, here's the SFC version of the ISC (in txt), and the SFB version, taken from the "Prime Directive" RPG manual. For some reason, SFC adds the Meskeen race ?

FWIW, in SFB, the Klingons also have many other races in their empire. These races are second-class/subservient, but members of these races can and do serve in the military and can rise in rank - the Slidarians, a bear-ape-like race and the Hilidarians, a reptilian race, serve as the ground forces. In ST, I believe there's a few references to Klingon subject races but these are never seen.

Did enterprise rip from this theme? Yea threw in a few more races bugs and fish and called it another faction but i still wonder?

TAnimaL  Thanks for the pics  Know of any useing the tos alt universe theme?