Topic: Are Lod's still usefull with tech we have now?

[Kreeargh]

Not many modelers make them any more but i was wondering for the future of sfc if they are worth the effort to make them now ? 

[GotAFarmYet?]

for SFC 2 and 1, YES
SFC 3 and future versions NO

The SFC 3 engine used a different system so lods were not really necessary that system handled the graphics better too compaired to the orginal engine.

The LOD was useful because only if the ship was veiwed very closely was the full bit map at a higher resolution used. at a distance of 10 or more the second LOD was used, with a texture setting that was 1/2 to 1/4 the resolution of the up close one. It means the processor used 50 - 25% less of the processing of the LOD 1 version. If LOD was used at ranges above 50 I think it was the model was 1/4 to 1/8 of the LOD 2 25- 12 % of the processing of LOD 2 and a whopping 4% or so of LOD 1.

It meant that you only impaced your system if you closed to a range of under 10 to allot of ships which did not happen all that much

[Starfox1701]

I disagree. anything that gives you more processing power to work with is a good thing. Yes I know its more work but the payoff can be a doubling or tripiling of the number of units and effects the PC can handel

[GotAFarmYet?]

Disagree with which part?

SFC 3 handles the graphics differently it did not use LODs at all, so making them in SFC 3 makes no sense.
SFC 1 & 2 used them and they are actual models with textures that are loaded at different ranges.

So for SFC 1 & 2 LODs are useful, but not the case with SFC 3 or probable future versions

[FoaS_XC]

SFC3 automatically does its own LODs so we don't have to worry about them is what GAFY is saying.

for SFC2 and SFC1? Yes, they are extremely useful, but a pain enough that most don't want to bother making them.
if I WERE to be bothered with it, say for an official project, here's what I'd do:
LOD1 = Full res textures, full res model.
LOD2 = Half-Res textures, full res model.
LOD3 = Bare-detail model, small textures to suit.

[Starfox1701]

with this part

not in probable future versions

I think LODs should always be part of a game because they let you push it further

[Kreeargh]

3 lods are max for the sfc engine right? The change distance for each lod one can not edit?

[FoaS_XC]

I don't know if more than three are possible, but their values are changable on export from 3ds Max

[marstone]

looks like 5 is the max as it is set right now (for EAW, probably the same in the others).

[FoaS_XC]

Good to know

Fourth LOD: an SFB-Style counter. >.<

[GotAFarmYet?]

with this part

not in probable future versions

I think LODs should always be part of a game because they let you push it further

I see your point but you missed mine
LODs will not be needed in the future versions because of a change in programming. The program now does a render of it that uses much less processor time and memory of a modelled ship. In the older version we had to make a model for each LOD, it also meant that when a ship was loaded into the game every texture and model had to assigned to a memory block. depending on the LOD in use would determine processor time needed to render the ship, the farther the better.
The newer way in SFC 3 saves all that processor time by loading a render for all the far stuff and only the model up close. The later way is much less resource dependant after the initial render is made.

So why would the older more labor, resource and processor intensive way be used?

[marstone]

with this part

not in probable future versions

I think LODs should always be part of a game because they let you push it further

I see your point but you missed mine
LODs will not be needed in the future versions because of a change in programming. The program now does a render of it that uses much less processor time and memory of a modelled ship. In the older version we had to make a model for each LOD, it also meant that when a ship was loaded into the game every texture and model had to assigned to a memory block. depending on the LOD in use would determine processor time needed to render the ship, the farther the better.
The newer way in SFC 3 saves all that processor time by loading a render for all the far stuff and only the model up close. The later way is much less resource dependant after the initial render is made.

So why would the older more labor, resource and processor intensive way be used?

quick short answer would be no access to SFC3 rendering engine.

[GotAFarmYet?]

with this part

not in probable future versions

I think LODs should always be part of a game because they let you push it further

I see your point but you missed mine
LODs will not be needed in the future versions because of a change in programming. The program now does a render of it that uses much less processor time and memory of a modelled ship. In the older version we had to make a model for each LOD, it also meant that when a ship was loaded into the game every texture and model had to assigned to a memory block. depending on the LOD in use would determine processor time needed to render the ship, the farther the better.
The newer way in SFC 3 saves all that processor time by loading a render for all the far stuff and only the model up close. The later way is much less resource dependant after the initial render is made.

So why would the older more labor, resource and processor intensive way be used?

quick short answer would be no access to SFC3 rendering engine.

Good point, but that should as of now, but who knows in the future. Also there are plenty of engines that could be used if the next version were being built from the ground up and nolt just a add on. You would actually know the answer to that better than I though

[Dizzy]

They are absolutely necessary for dynaverse play on SFC2EAW and SFCOP, although the future of the dynaverse is clouded atm. When you have plasma, ftrs, PF's, drones, mines, shuttles and terrain in a 3v3 match, models that come into view that are far off are rendered as if they are up close and you can see the frame rate tank.

A lot of model users are unfamiliar with exactly how models affect gameplay and just 'drop' them into their model folders not knowing the consequences of thier actions. Likewise a lot of modelers are unfamiliar with why LoD's are used and therefore dont bother. When high texture and high poly models are used without LoD's, they are usually ok in single player skirmish and solo campaign games... but put them into a scenario like I spelled out above and disaster strikes.

As a dynaverse server admin, I can tell you first hand that it is irresponsible of modelers to use high poly models, high poly textures without using LOD's and then release the models unto ususpecting victims. It's hard enough to get a good PvP match in a game to work, and then having a model kill the connection because the host's frame rate crawls to a stop and throws everyone OoS... is just criminal. Your modeling license should be revoked.

Hats off to Kreeargh for championing this subject. It's an important issue that I would like to hit over Adonis' head till all his modeling ability is knocked out of him and he isnt ever able to release another model again... hehe. Edited for spellin

[Terradyhne]

They are absolutely necessary for dynaverse play on SFC2EAW and SFCOP, although the future of the dynaverse is clouded atm. When you have plasma, ftrs, PF's, drones, mines, shuttles and terrain in a 3v3 match, models that come into view that are far off are rendered as if they are up close and you can see the frame rate tank.

A lot of model users are unfamiliar with exactly how models affect gameplay and just 'drop' them into their model folders not knowing the consequences of thier actions. Likewise a lot of modelers are unfamiliar with why LoD's are used and therefore dont bother. When high texture and high poly models are used without LoD's, they are usually ok in single player skirmish and solo campaign games... but put them into a scenario like I spelled out above and disaster strikes.

As a dynaverse server admin, I can tell you first hand that it is irresponsible of modelers to use high poly models, high poly textures without using LOD's and then release the models unto ususpecting victims. It's hard enough to get a good PvP match in a game to work, and then having a model kill the connection because the host's frame rate crawls to a stop and throws everyone OoS... is just criminal. Your modeling license should be revoked.

Hats off to Kreeargh for championing this subject. It's an important issue that I would like to hit over Adonis' head till all his modeling ability is knocked out of him and he isnt ever able to release another model again... hehe. Edited for spellin

sorry for beeing such an as***** but do you know what LOD's meen, more work and most of the modellers make models because they have fun to make models and won't even consider to make LOD's, cause it's to much work.
if you want to use highpoly models, than go with time and the thinking of modern gaming industry, and change to a newer game that could handle the higher polycounts or invest into better servers or change to a newer OS.
i to won't ever make LOD's for any gamemodels i make, but i even don't want or will ever use online play that much.
i even don't like the way the gaming industry goes with this, to only support online play and throwing the singleplayer part completely out.

[Dizzy]

Yadda yadda, blah blah. Buck up and get out a proper model dyna package will ya, Terradyhne?

The issue isnt as bad as long as the USER knows the model has a high poly and texture count AND he also knows that using it as is without LOD's is bad for gaming. Steps in this situation can be taken so as not to ruin the gaming experience.

Problem is that most modelers dont bother to take the time to explain what it is the user is about to drop into their model folder. A more complete readme text would suffice for the lazy modeler I suppose. But there is no substitute for thoroughness. LoD's are just the icing on the cake of a good model and it's modeler.

[FoaS_XC]

Yes they are useful.

The degree to which they are NECESSARY has decreased but not to the point were they are useless. As Dizzy says: they help greatly in multiplayer games. That being said, in many cases creating LODs is very much like creating an entirely new model, and thus I can definitely understand why many modellers don't want to bother.

Using an arbitrary scale for the sake of argument, if general model quality were measured on a scale of 1-10, including LODs 7 years ago might have bumped it by +3, whereas now they bump by a +2.

[intermech]

OK, always trying to push the envelope here. Here are a couple alternate uses for LODS:

a. Make a ship completely cloaked until you are right up next to it by making the LOD 2 and 3 layers empty.
b. Make a ship deceptive, by making it look like a transport far away, but change into an attack vessel at close range.
c. Make a space monster that has a passive stance far away, but as you get closer, it rears its claws/tenticles/etc. when you get closer.

[FoaS_XC]

Problem with that is that its not range between you and the target, its between the camera and the subject of the camera.

[atheorhaven]

OK, always trying to push the envelope here. Here are a couple alternate uses for LODS:

a. Make a ship completely cloaked until you are right up next to it by making the LOD 2 and 3 layers empty.
b. Make a ship deceptive, by making it look like a transport far away, but change into an attack vessel at close range.
c. Make a space monster that has a passive stance far away, but as you get closer, it rears its claws/tenticles/etc. when you get closer.

Wow, I read that wrong.. would certainly make for a squeemish attack though on the part of the defender.. :p