Topic: Sci FI Poll 26: Insurrecting my Nemisis.

[Sirgod]

Here we go, two movies from the Next Generation crew.  Both of which fared poorly at the box office. Who will win here, Insurrection, the most poetic piece in ST movie lore, or Nemesis, the film with more doppelgangers than you can shake a torpedo at?

Star Trek : Insurrection  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120844/

Star Trek Insurrection Trailer

vs.

Star Trek Nemesis.  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0253754/

Star Trek Nemesis Trailer

Stephen

[762_XC]

Both were awful. >.<

[FoaS_XC]

Insurrection wasn't AS awful.

[marstone]

Guess you have to pretend you are voting for president and instead of voting for the best, you vote for the least worst.

[knightstorm]

Nemesis had the more epic battle scene, but Insurrection had the Enterprise flying through Hubble telescope photos.

[FCM_SFHQ_XC]

Insurrection, Id have to say mainly due to Rykers interesting flying during the main battle scenes there

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Insurection. No contest. Insurection suffered from not being First Contact. Children coming home to evict their parents. That's the kind of social story star trek is known for.

[Sirgod]

I have to go with Insurrection also.  There was just something about it I liked better.

Stephen

[Strat]

Both struck me as 'try hard' and just didn't capture what TNG was to me.

I think... (pondered this for about 10 minutes)  they are equally bad! So I guess I can't vote! lol

[Dash Jones]

I really liked Nemesis.  Insurrection was okay, but pretty boring at parts.  Nemesis was a pretty good movie and didn't really understand why it got such bad press from Trekkers/Trekkies.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis was a pretty good movie and didn't really understand why it got such bad press from Trekkers/Trekkies.

Messing with continuity (Remans). 

The idea that a slave race could make the scientific breakthroughs (scientist slaves?) and build a mega ship right in the Romulan system without it being noticed.  Imagine as a comparison the idea of black slaves during the civil war building a diesel powered dreadnought right in the southern shipyards without it being noticed, sounds silly doesn't it?

The ridiculous Picard clone idea.

And so forth.

Obviously I'm for Insurrection.
 Just how many light years away did they detect the various android parts (how much power did those parts have to emit to be detected that far away and why wasn't Data detectable the same way?)? 

[knightstorm]

Nemesis was a pretty good movie and didn't really understand why it got such bad press from Trekkers/Trekkies.

Messing with continuity (Remans). 

The idea that a slave race could make the scientific breakthroughs (scientist slaves?) and build a mega ship right in the Romulan system without it being noticed.  Imagine as a comparison the idea of black slaves during the civil war building a diesel powered dreadnought right in the southern shipyards without it being noticed, sounds silly doesn't it?

The ridiculous Picard clone idea.

And so forth.

Obviously I'm for Insurrection.
 Just how many light years away did they detect the various android parts (how much power did those parts have to emit to be detected that far away and why wasn't Data detectable the same way?)?

Don't really know how the Remans messed with conitinuity.  As for how a slave race was able to build a powerful warship, I think the film explained that the Romulans gave them a lot more freedom during the dominion war because they needed troops.  Shinzon was originally intended to replace Picard as a Romulan sleeper agent.  When the project was scrapped, he was sent to the mines of Remus to die.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Have to go with Insurrection as well.  Nemesis had some promise, but the fleet battle which would have been epic, (and almost made up for some of the giant plot holes) was stopped by a hit that they were "ready" for?  Although when I was watching it in the theatre... I couldn't help but scream "It's about time!" when Picard ordered a full phaser spread.

Insurrection was TNG episode, albeit a three parter crammed into one sitting.  I think Riker had a "wait a second" moment when the bridge was being shot up around him.  Took the helm himself instead of letting Deanna take it.  But it does beg the question (which Q asked in the "Q Continuum" book series ("Nice ship Jean-Luc, but what happened to the last one? Don't tell me, you let Troi take the helm?"))  Did Picard have Troi take the helm because he knew she wouldn't miss?

[Andromeda]

I thought Insurrection was sweet and Nemesis was hateful.  What a horrible way to end the TNG franchise.

[EschelonOfJudgemnt]

Don't remember much of either of these movies... so no vote.  Must not have been that memorable...

[TAnimaL]

I found the poll to be a hard choice but ultimately felt that Insurrection was a better film.

FWIW, "out there" on the internet is the script for Nemesis by John Logan that has dialogue & scenes not in the movie that would have made it, if not a better film, at least not as much of a Picard?data show, again.

http://movies.trekcore.com/nemesis/nemesis.pdf

[Kreeargh]

I did not like either movie big part of Tng not trek to me, just crap. BnB went all hot and spicey Even Enterprise has the suckyness. Just my opinions. Vote of the 2 - i go for Nemisis .

[Nemesis]

Don't really know how the Remans messed with conitinuity.  As for how a slave race was able to build a powerful warship, I think the film explained that the Romulans gave them a lot more freedom during the dominion war because they needed troops.  Shinzon was originally intended to replace Picard as a Romulan sleeper agent.  When the project was scrapped, he was sent to the mines of Remus to die.

The very existence of the Remans which is never mentioned before (or likely since) as a crucial part of the Romulan military (by building their ships) does so. 

More freedom?  Enough to gain the education to design and build a super ship?  Enough that they could hide it in a shipyard that HAD to have security that would have noticed such a ship?  Enough to build weapons that could devastate Romulus?  Seems unlikely to me.

Picard just isn't important enough for such a target.  How could the Romulans even brief such a agent properly?   The Enterprise bridge crew knows him too well the clone would need to be perfect in every way, the tone of voice, the phrasing and timing all would be give aways.  It might fool strangers but not his close associates (not to mention a shipboard empath).  The moment it tried to act it would be countered.  Ships Computer:Please enter security code.  How does the clone get them?

[knightstorm]

Only one episode really dealt with the Romulan homeworld in depth.  If the Remans were the slave race that was building the Romulan ships, they would have already had sufficient education to build a powerful warship.  During the war, they would have had the resources to scout out  a location, as well as sources of supplies to build the Scimitar..  As for Picard not being important enough to replace, he was one of the Federation's most prestigious and someone likely to ascend to a key position in the Starfleet hierarchy in the near future.  He became captain of the Federation's flagship, and was offered a promotion to the admiralty in season 1.  Regarding critical information, the Romulans were shown to have the technology to rip information from someone's mind.

[Nemesis]

If the Remans were the slave race that was building the Romulan ships, they would have already had sufficient education to build a powerful warship.  During the war, they would have had the resources to scout out  a location, as well as sources of supplies to build the Scimitar..  As for Picard not being important enough to replace, he was one of the Federation's most prestigious and someone likely to ascend to a key position in the Starfleet hierarchy in the near future.  He became captain of the Federation's flagship, and was offered a promotion to the admiralty in season 1.  Regarding critical information, the Romulans were shown to have the technology to rip information from someone's mind.

The knowledge to build and the knowledge to design and make tech breakthroughs are not the same.  A "Rosie the Rivetter" might build large sections of ship without being able to design those parts.  Even a machinist who makes others designs may well be limited in creating their own original designs let alone making scientific breakthroughs. 

Who the heck lets slave fly around in their own starships to find locations for shipyards?  Who lets them control unrestricted resources (antimatter for one thing). 

Even with the "raw" knowledge of Picard it doesn't give the ability to imitate him in detail.  Phrasing, timing vocal tones and body language are all difficult to handle. You also still have the resident empath and Geordi whose vision would reveal differences in the clone from the original.

You only get offered promotions so often before being passed over.  Picard has refused often enough.  Even with all that he was still refused permission to fight the Borg at Wolf359 (not trusted enough remember).

[knightstorm]

If the Remans were the slave race that was building the Romulan ships, they would have already had sufficient education to build a powerful warship.  During the war, they would have had the resources to scout out  a location, as well as sources of supplies to build the Scimitar..  As for Picard not being important enough to replace, he was one of the Federation's most prestigious and someone likely to ascend to a key position in the Starfleet hierarchy in the near future.  He became captain of the Federation's flagship, and was offered a promotion to the admiralty in season 1.  Regarding critical information, the Romulans were shown to have the technology to rip information from someone's mind.

The knowledge to build and the knowledge to design and make tech breakthroughs are not the same.  A "Rosie the Rivetter" might build large sections of ship without being able to design those parts.  Even a machinist who makes others designs may well be limited in creating their own original designs let alone making scientific breakthroughs. 

Who the heck lets slave fly around in their own starships to find locations for shipyards?  Who lets them control unrestricted resources (antimatter for one thing). 

Even with the "raw" knowledge of Picard it doesn't give the ability to imitate him in detail.  Phrasing, timing vocal tones and body language are all difficult to handle. You also still have the resident empath and Geordi whose vision would reveal differences in the clone from the original.

You only get offered promotions so often before being passed over.  Picard has refused often enough.  Even with all that he was still refused permission to fight the Borg at Wolf359 (not trusted enough remember).

If Remans are serving as the crews of these ships, they have to have a good understanding of how they operate.  Ignoring the fact that Romulan ships don't rely on matter/anti-matter reactors, I can think of any number of ways for them to get supplies ranging from embezzlment, buying black market supplies, to capturing Dominion weapons and equipment.
Based on Shinzon's age, he was created before Picard took command of the Enterprise, but probably at the point where he was at the top of a short list of candidates for command.  He wouldn't have had to deal with a crew noticing him behaving differently because there would not have been a crew yet.

[Lieutenant_Q]

I have to wonder just how much time passed between the loss of the Stargazer and his getting command of the Enterprise.  1 Year?  2 Years?

[knightstorm]

8 years.  The Stargazer was lost in 2355, the Enterprise was commissioned in 2363.

[Lieutenant_Q]

So Shinzon was created about 1 to 2 years after the loss of the Stargazer.  Picard was probably at Starfleet Command doing some desk job while he waited for them to find him another ship.  Good chance that he was the senior Captain at Starfleet Headquarters, not seasoned enough to be promoted to Admiral (or unwilling to accept the promotion), but too seasoned to give him a frigate.  Starfleet could have given him an Ambassador, but they probably saw him as a better choice to break in a Galaxy Class.

[TAnimaL]

That math works for Shinzon's youngest age, making him about 22 in Nemesis. A bit young, esp. since he served with distinction in the Dominion War, so he was probably created earlier. Picard was already considered "a legendary Captain" during his years on the Stargazer. The TNG novel "Death In Winter" hypothesized that the Romulans were cloning many Starfleet Captains, and got Picard's DNA at the Crusher's wedding in 2348.

I always wondered about those lost years of Picard's, just like the missing ones between TOS movies 5 & 6 (5 years). No one's written much about those time periods.

[Dash Jones]

If the Remans were the slave race that was building the Romulan ships, they would have already had sufficient education to build a powerful warship.  During the war, they would have had the resources to scout out  a location, as well as sources of supplies to build the Scimitar..  As for Picard not being important enough to replace, he was one of the Federation's most prestigious and someone likely to ascend to a key position in the Starfleet hierarchy in the near future.  He became captain of the Federation's flagship, and was offered a promotion to the admiralty in season 1.  Regarding critical information, the Romulans were shown to have the technology to rip information from someone's mind.

The knowledge to build and the knowledge to design and make tech breakthroughs are not the same.  A "Rosie the Rivetter" might build large sections of ship without being able to design those parts.  Even a machinist who makes others designs may well be limited in creating their own original designs let alone making scientific breakthroughs. 

Who the heck lets slave fly around in their own starships to find locations for shipyards?  Who lets them control unrestricted resources (antimatter for one thing). 

Even with the "raw" knowledge of Picard it doesn't give the ability to imitate him in detail.  Phrasing, timing vocal tones and body language are all difficult to handle. You also still have the resident empath and Geordi whose vision would reveal differences in the clone from the original.

You only get offered promotions so often before being passed over.  Picard has refused often enough.  Even with all that he was still refused permission to fight the Borg at Wolf359 (not trusted enough remember).

Well,

An Egyptian slave owned by military or rulers actually had MORE power and ability than a normal citizen.  The Mamluks were death itself to those they fought...and those who were high ranking or served as the slave of the Pharoah were like Pharoah speaking himself.  You disobey and they had the right same as Pharoah to do as they wanted.

The Turks had a similar system with the Jannisaries.  The Jannisaries were so favored under the Turks that people many times had their children go to become Jannisaries.

Other examples exist of those who were actually more powerful than those around them, but were the slave caste.

Even in the Bible (if you accept it as true) has Joseph as a slave in Egypt...and as you can see, even at the end as a slave, he was the most powerful man besides Pharoah himself.