Topic: What is the kobyashimaru to you ?

[Kreeargh]

What is the kobyashimaru to you ?

[FoaS_XC]

stock SFC freighter with tanks instead of cargo pods.

[Kreeargh]

I see it as a thought trying to fix the past mistakes. No end being  a true Trek idea but thats me.

[FoaS_XC]

oh, conceptually? like as a metaphor?

The obligatory one is "no win scenario", but if I were to think for more than 10 seconds on it I'd say it would be a "Mistake you could never fully erase. One that you've learned from, to be sure, but one that still pangs at you by way of embarrassment whenever you think of it. As if to say 'Oh, man, was I foolish that day' ". make sense?

Then again - could be the fact that it's 1am here ><

[atheorhaven]

I see it as an example ship of a class of freighters.  Something older as most freighters are older ships, so in TMP times, I'd see the average ship of the class being a pre to TOS era freighter.  Lost Era stuff would start to move into TMP age, TNG would firmly be at least Picard's Stargazer days.  Post Voyager, you'd be seeing early TNG era.  My belief anyways.. freighters should always be older than the base level ships of Starfleet by at least 20-30 years.  And any cadet test should reflect the ships of the era of the time..

[762_XC]

3rd class neutronic fuel carrier. Dimensions 237m x 111m x 70m.  147,943 MT tonnage (that's about 3/4 of a Constitution class). Cargo capacity 97,000 MT. Cruise speed WF3, max speed WF6.

Basically, a clunky, medium sized freighter. Certainly TMP era as it was conceptualized then.

[Norsehound]

A freighter of the period, as the scenario would continually update in order to be believable for cadets. Perhaps it might lag a generation or two behind to show it is outdated, slow, and incapable of escaping its pursuers and needing attention and defense from the starship it is baiting.

Great Kudos, however, go to the JJ Abrams team that decided to run with the imagry of the Maru that has been established in some of the older books. I thought the Lotus Flower was an interesting version, but I really didn't have a solid image for the Kobyashi Maru. The Abrams version fits just as well as anything (with the enormous exception of the SFB freighters however, which I feel are unimaginative and simple).

[Starfox1701]

How we face Death is at least as important as how we face life don't you think?

[marstone]

How we face Death is at least as important as how we face life don't you think?

Many times how we face death is more important then how we face life.  Bravery is not the absence of fear, but channeling fear to a strength.

[Centurus]

Marriage.

[Bonk]

Many times how we face death is more important then how we face life.

OK, Yoda. Deep thoughts, you have posted. Less Yoda-like and better written, is the second sentence.

Bravery is not the absence of fear, but channeling fear to a strength.

Allow me:
Bravery, the absence of fear is not, but to a strength, channeling fear.

Fixed that for you, I did.  Sorry, couldn't help it. But seriously, the second bit hits home on big issues in life and well said.

Oh, and what is the kobyashimaru to me? A dumb name for a ship, mostly.

[Terradyhne]

for me is the Kobayashimaru a supply ship far to much away of safe spaceroutes

[intermech]

No-win scenario. Trek fans should use the term more frequently in daily language to describe impossibility. Maybe it will catch on.

[FoaS_XC]

Marriage.

Mawage. Mawage is wot bwings us togever tuday.....

[Antivyrus]

No-win scenario. Trek fans should use the term more frequently in daily language to describe impossibility. Maybe it will catch on.

ahh but its only a no-win IF you don't know how to reprogram the computer

[KBF-Kurok]

Its only a no win if your the Fed.........

[Centurus]

Marriage.

Mawage. Mawage is wot bwings us togever tuday.....

Think about it.  For men, marriage is the ultimate Kobayashi Maru scenario.  Once you say I Do, so many things you don't, and, you'll never win an argument ever again.  Also, that which God gave you, is no longer yours.  If you divorce, your first wife takes it and keeps it, and you're given a 3rd market replacement, which doesn't work anywhere near as good as yours used to.  Also, during the marriage, any money she makes is hers.  Any money you make, is hers.

No win scenario.  *takes a bow*

[Kreeargh]

No-win scenario. Trek fans should use the term more frequently in daily language to describe impossibility. Maybe it will catch on.

   Totaly agree.

[Starfox1701]

I d0; you mean you guys don't? Hell Bones even give as great example in VI

[Kreeargh]

Marriage.

Mawage. Mawage is wot bwings us togever tuday.....

Think about it.  For men, marriage is the ultimate Kobayashi Maru scenario.  Once you say I Do, so many things you don't, and, you'll never win an argument ever again.  Also, that which God gave you, is no longer yours.  If you divorce, your first wife takes it and keeps it, and you're given a 3rd market replacement, which doesn't work anywhere near as good as yours used to.  Also, during the marriage, any money she makes is hers.  Any money you make, is hers.

No win scenario.  *takes a bow*

That all is about LAWS - rights some get.  This no end idea is about death who dies and how so a REAL issue.  Marriage is a rule and that 2 binds their whatnot, but is not of this theme.

[Centurus]

My answer still stands, marriage is the Kobyashi Maru in my opinion.   

[intermech]

My answer still stands, marriage is the Kobyashi Maru in my opinion.   

Respectfully, marriage is not about you winning, but your spouse. That is why it is such an incredible commitment, an oath to another person to put their interests in front of your own unconditionally. It is less like the Kobyashimaru and more like the death of Spock. That is, afterall, how Spock beat the "real life" Kobyashimaru scenario in Wrath of Kahn, he put the interests of his friends ahead of his own. "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." Love always wins!

[atheorhaven]

you do realise that im getting married in less than 2 months?.....

Run!  Run Now!  >=)

Being with someone is great, but there's an extra security in marriage.  That being said, expect a collar on your testicles from her. 

[Starfox1701]

Marrage is picking your partner. Its about building a team not winning arguments

[marstone]

Marrage is picking your partner. Its about building a team not winning arguments

  um, oh, wait a minute.  You are serious about that aren't you???  no, I agree with you.  23 years with the same women, 20 years of marriage this year. 

Most important phrases to know (something that is similar, bounce around different ways of saying the same thing).

1. yes dear, anything you say.
2. You look beautiful dear.
3. It was all my fault.

[Kreeargh]

Marrage is picking your partner. Its about building a team not winning arguments

This thought truth BINGO .
Bolth NEED to learn eachother. The Marrige issue. I joined and i feel i am a winner.   Still this is not the subject, death how so was the issue. Who picks the END game and their thoughts how they choose it all. Not a hot and spicy issue more a how one views Trek and the Ideas they bring to us poeple.

[marstone]

now how you pick the END is a good look.  I did like the explanation in JJtrek.

It is a test to see how someone handles a situation you probably (or can't) win.  Will they panic and fold under the pressure.  Will they hold the line and do the best possible.  Crippling and/or taking a few ships with you is the best that could be done if you are good, or just lose your ship without causing any lasting damage to the other side if you do bad.

It is sort of like an extended and extreme version of what is done in the military where they put you in stressful situations to weed out those who can't handle them, before there are real lives on the line.

[Centurus]

..... I don't know if i should be happy about the upcoming event, or petrified

Be happy about being petrified?  Marriage is a good thing when it's with the right person, but still, my previous statements stand, Kobyashi Maru, cause you'll never win an argument, or be right, again.  :-)

[Kreeargh]

LOL someone lock this thread its gone WAY off topic  .  Congrats Fallen warrior 

[marstone]

LOL someone lock this thread its gone WAY off topic  .  Congrats Fallen warrior 

It isn't really off topic, you asked what is the kobyashimaru to you?  This is what it is to those.

[Kreeargh]

LOL someone lock this thread its gone WAY off topic  .  Congrats Fallen warrior 

It isn't really off topic, you asked what is the kobyashimaru to you?  This is what it is to those.

I AGREE   

[Centurus]

Kreeargh, let them have the Kobayashimaru and stay out of the neutral zone! Lmfao... 

Adam

 

[marstone]

My future wife has to say something. "While yes in some circumstances it could be seen as me having him by the balls i dont think you lot know how good hes got it. He can sleep in till 4pm if he wants to, gets coffee brought to him, hes nearly always right, if he wants a sandwich i make it, he can mod/game etc when he wants, all the housework is done with his help all i ask is he cooks but i bake, and everything else i'll leave you to imagine ;p" To which my reply is, "If I get to mod, play games when I want..... Apart from those eventful early nights... How in my right mind can I object" ;-)

you can't complain about that.  Keep her.  Treat her right. 

But watch out for the first two years.  Not sure why but in many peoples marriages the first two get them.  They make changes, the little things that didn't matter, come forward, becoming bigger.   If lucky things will just flow like normal (seems it should).   So hold a steady tiller and enjoy the rest of your life.

Biggest thing that i can see to watch out for is don't argue (much).  You can't win.  Even if you are right, you will lose in the end.  So talk.  Enjoy your early evenings, and keep her on a pedestal. (not a real high one, but high anough that you keep her special).  She has become your LOML (love on my life).  But also a SWMBO.  I'll let you figure that one out.

[Starfox1701]

yae after almost 6 years it was most definetly a beginning not an end

[marstone]

Thanks guys, She who must be obeyed is joyed that you approve

woo hoo you know that long one.  On an old tools board i am on, there are alot of SWMBO. 
But yours does sound good.  keeps us informed on how it goes.  I am at 20 years of marriage and still happy.

[Kreeargh]

  I am on my 7 year itch i still Love my wife!  THIS thread is dead !  MY thoughts was trek but i guess some want to be arses so im done with this thought.

[marstone]

I am on my 7 year itch i still Love my wife!  THIS thread is dead !  MY thoughts was trek but i guess some want to be arses so im done with this thought.

It gets better.

But on topic.  Kobyashimaru doesn't mean alot to me.  In the trek theme it is a test, the name of a ship that can't be saved.  It was originally put out to show that Captain Kirk was better then all the rest, then expanded on and explained more as time went on.  Basically a military psychological test for future captains to see how they handle a "lost" situation.

So I haven't voted, because to me it is more about the "test" not the ship it was named after.  If it had to come down to the ship, I would say a tos or JJ ship.  I haven't really loved any of the other series that much (including the movies).

[Kreeargh]

I am on my 7 year itch i still Love my wife!  THIS thread is dead !  MY thoughts was trek but i guess some want to be arses so im done with this thought.

It gets better.

But on topic.  Kobyashimaru doesn't mean alot to me.  In the trek theme it is a test, the name of a ship that can't be saved.  It was originally put out to show that Captain Kirk was better then all the rest, then expanded on and explained more as time went on.  Basically a military psychological test for future captains to see how they handle a "lost" situation.

So I haven't voted, because to me it is more about the "test" not the ship it was named after.  If it had to come down to the ship, I would say a tos or JJ ship.  I haven't really loved any of the other series that much (including the movies).

Life is always the Test as the Kobyashimaru . No ship is an issue its is thoes who serve on that ship is. Dont forget the idea and test It was a poll on the public thoughts. If this is now an issue faith for wife "I WILL DIE NOW FOR ANY REASON FOR MY WIFE !  Some faith is more than others screw all those that think their ways are more worthy!

[atheorhaven]

...
Biggest thing that i can see to watch out for is don't argue (much).  You can't win.  Even if you are right, you will lose in the end.  So talk.  Enjoy your early evenings, and keep her on a pedestal. (not a real high one, but high anough that you keep her special).  She has become your LOML (love on my life).  But also a SWMBO.  I'll let you figure that one out.

Going to disagree simply with my own situation... I had more problems with *not* disagreeing and arguing than I do with arguing.  Was told that she didn't want to live with a doormat, and that I needed to stand up for myself if I was right because she wouldn't always be right and if I knew something that she didn't, I needed to be assertive on my point to make sure she got the right information.

It can be tricky, and I have to be able to prove my point, but as long as I'm not arguing just for arguments sake and not claiming things as an absolute, then that's what she wants.

But then my SWMBO is different that way anyways.  She wants to be with a man who defends himself and his point of view, not a doormat she can wipe her feet on and he'll take whatever she throws at him.  And then we both go off a cliff.

[marstone]

ah, don't argue, doesn't mean don't disagree.  It means you don't get in a yelling match with your ego's on the line.  You will say things that should not be said, that have nothing to do with what you are trying to discuss.  Don't discuss important things while you are mad, it is not good for anyone.

discussing your disagreements is good.  It helps work out a path for everyone to go down together.  But getting into a yelling match, arguing.  Just gets people mad and then they don't listen.  (how can you listen when you are both yelling at each other?)  also in that state what little you do hear you will take personally instead of taking it as criticism of your stance on the topic.

so my statement is when you disagree, discuss it.  Don't make it personal and don't take it personal.

In my family, my wife runs things.  Reason is I work to much, not around as much as I should be and when I am half of that time I am asleep (I work nights for my main job).  Back when I worked 15 hour days, I just was at home long anough to eat, sleep, shower and back out the door.  Having one parent be in charge kept things stable for the kids.  We didn't have time to argue either, the little time we had, was spent together. .   

[intermech]

I think Spock missed the test because he is the one that oversaw its creation.  I like the idea of different races being used as the baddies during the test depending on the political climate. What I never understood is how they think they would instill real fear in a situation that is essentially a glorified video game. I was disappointed with the way the test was portrayed in the new movie. It needed a more catch-22 feel to it. Also, leading up to it, they should have made you feel like Kirk was already captain when they started the scene, which would have felt right especially to the uninitiated. He could have beat it by talking a computer to death or enlisting the help of Abraham Lincoln or something as a throwback to the original series, and just when the audience is like wtf?!, you realize it was a test that he had manipulated and he was still in the academy. Lowering the shields of the enemy was lame and it implied that someone could actually win with tactical abilities or brute force. Before the new movie, I thought the outcomes would be among the following choices:

1. You save the freighter and the ship, but you started a war with the enemy - - you lose, you warmonger
2. You avoid intruding on enemy space but lose the freighter - - you lose, you coward
3. You save the freighter by sacrificing your own ship and crew giving the freighter time to escape - - you lose, you're dead

I enjoyed reading speculation on how others had dealt with the scenario:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru#The_Kobayashi_Maru_.28Original_Series_novel.29

How would you have done it?

EDIT: I guess you could instill fear if you made the player think he was really on his first training mission and up pops a distress call, then the cadet needs to make a decision whether to take on the mission him/herself and go off program. Then, the cheat Kirk would do is just knowing it was a test when others did not. That would technically be changing the parameters of the test . . . then you could get Kirk talking a computer simulated enemy to death, lol.

[Lieutenant_Q]

I've written the Kobayashi Maru as a no-win scenario that is not told to the cadets that it is a no-win scenario.  They take it, and lose.  Some will try to take it again thinking there's another solution, some will throw up their hands and say, "I'm not command material."  (Note that only Command Cadets took the test, the rest of the cadets in the test were simply there filling a few roles that the training staff (the ones that get "killed" in the scenario) don't.  They may get graded, but they get graded as to how they respond to the bridge flying apart around them.)  There's arguments on both sides for telling the Cadets whether it is a no-win scenario or not, I prefer not to tell them until well after the test, after they've had to stew in it for a bit.

[intermech]

On a much smaller scale, I had to take a no-win test in college. Everyone in the class failed the test. There was really no way to pass. We were told afterwords as part of an illustration, then we were told not to tell anyone who might take that class later. It was fun and really made the point.

[Kreeargh]

Guys, remember TNG, when Wesly had to take some test for the Academy, they pretended some explosion went off, a fellow cadet/personnel was injured, I haven't seen the episode in a very very long time, was that also Starfleets Kobayashimaru, or an addition to the one we saw in TMP??

Any thoughts

Adam

Same idea i posted  It was a Tos era thought even era now . 

[Kreeargh]

I think it's a great way to teach fresh new cadets reality... You come out the academy so cocky, so ready to conquer the world not realizing that you aren't invincible... Also teaches them to deal with loss and even when a captain has to make the choice to sacrifice a few for the many it teaches the crew to accept that loss bc of the greater good...

Adam

The Private / Grunt needs to learn this simple thought, Hell Every human needs to learn it!  Opps sorry all i need to 

[marstone]

I think it's a great way to teach fresh new cadets reality... You come out the academy so cocky, so ready to conquer the world not realizing that you aren't invincible... Also teaches them to deal with loss and even when a captain has to make the choice to sacrifice a few for the many it teaches the crew to accept that loss bc of the greater good...

Adam

ah, the simple reason why soldiers hate butter bars.

[Norsehound]

That TNG episode had one of Wes's squadron die because the squad leader wanted to push an illegal maneuver to boost his own ego on his way out of the academy. Similar in that it was a test of character, though winning was a matter of perspective. Loyalty to one's integrity and justice (betraying your friend for his selfish stupidity), or loyalty to your friends (lying in court to protect your buddy who got one of your squad killed).

I wouldn't have gone after the ship. I would inquire what they're doing out there, inquire if they were authorized to be in the sector with the nearest starbase, contact the belligerent power and request permission to go into the zone to retrieve the ship. If the ship blundered in there willingly then I'd remind the Maru that they are outside of Federation protection and violated the zone on their own free will with negligence of the consequences. At that point continue on course and leave the wailing anarchist hippies to their fate.

The scenario would probably put a VIP on the ship and force me to rescue it anyway, at which point I'd let the record show it went against my judgment and got the ship destroyed. I'd tell the smug admiral at the end that the decision was out of my hands at that point and the only thing tested would be my willingness to obey orders. Who really destroyed the ship was whoever put that VIP out there and let it cross the NZ without letting us know beforehand.

A navigation error that took the ship so far into enemy territory that I couldn't call on reinforcements or be back on the border within moments would indicate a trap (Since no trade route under Federation jurisdiction would logically go even near the NZ). If I'm still overrun that close to my border, then an enemy invasion must have coincided with the incident in which case it's not a test, but an exercise in cadet humiliation and a waste of everyone's time.

[intermech]

What about destroying the Kobyashi Maru? There is a good chance it is a trap. With enemies on board, you must destroy the Federation technology before if falls into enemy hands.

[Norsehound]

Ah, I see what you mean, my eyes skipped over 'pretend' and I read "cadet killed". This happens in The First Duty.

Captain Calhoun's solution from New Frontier was to destroy the Kobyashi maru on the logic that it was obviously a trap, and the crew were either already dead or better off dead than be prisoners of the Romulans. An unorthedox tactic to be sure, but I wouldn't be even going into the neutral zone to destroy the ship.

[Panzergranate]

Many times how we face death is more important then how we face life.

OK, Yoda. Deep thoughts, you have posted. Less Yoda-like and better written, is the second sentence.

Bravery is not the absence of fear, but channeling fear to a strength.

Allow me:
Bravery, the absence of fear is not, but to a strength, channeling fear.

Fixed that for you, I did.  Sorry, couldn't help it. But seriously, the second bit hits home on big issues in life and well said.

Oh, and what is the kobyashimaru to me? A dumb name for a ship, mostly.

We fear the manner of our death more than actually dying.

The worst death to experience is the slow and prolonged agony of a living death, a soul imprisoned in a useless and immobile body without hope, trapped by the cruel misplaced morality and blinkered stupidity of others, totally powerless to ever escape, praying that nature will take its course quickly.

One of the threats against Captain Archer, in Enterprise, is the intention of one of his enemies to leave the SS Enterprise, dead and powerless, in a decaying orbit around a hell world and let the crew suffer the dispair and hoplessness of their impending horrific fate. It is a good metaphor to aim at all those who oppose humane the euthanasia of the terminally ill.

Perhaps dealing with a dead starship in a decaying orbit around a hell world would have been a better character test.

Myself in that situation??

I'd personally destroy the life support system, open all the airlocks and give the crew a quick humane death rather than let them suffer in the burn up of re-entry.

[Kreeargh]

Many times how we face death is more important then how we face life.

OK, Yoda. Deep thoughts, you have posted. Less Yoda-like and better written, is the second sentence.

Bravery is not the absence of fear, but channeling fear to a strength.

Allow me:
Bravery, the absence of fear is not, but to a strength, channeling fear.

Fixed that for you, I did.  Sorry, couldn't help it. But seriously, the second bit hits home on big issues in life and well said.

Oh, and what is the kobyashimaru to me? A dumb name for a ship, mostly.

We fear the manner of our death more than actually dying.

The worst death to experience is the slow and prolonged agony of a living death, a soul imprisoned in a useless and immobile body without hope, trapped by the cruel misplaced morality and blinkered stupidity of others, totally powerless to ever escape, praying that nature will take its course quickly.

One of the threats against Captain Archer, in Enterprise, is the intention of one of his enemies to leave the SS Enterprise, dead and powerless, in a decaying orbit around a hell world and let the crew suffer the dispair and hoplessness of their impending horrific fate. It is a good metaphor to aim at all those who oppose humane the euthanasia of the terminally ill.

Perhaps dealing with a dead starship in a decaying orbit around a hell world would have been a better character test.

Myself in that situation??

I'd personally destroy the life support system, open all the airlocks and give the crew a quick humane death rather than let them suffer in the burn up of re-entry.

That is the test isnt it. Myself would try and figure out a way to save all lives and not feel pitty that if I couldnot do it atleast I tryed and learn from the experiance. The test the way I see it. I take from the test Dont ever give up anything fight or figure out a way or die trying.

[intermech]

Having recently been faced with a variation of the No-win scenario (though not life threatening, definitely lively-hood threatening), I think it is a test of your faith in your crew, your mission, and your values. Whether a no-win scenario actually exists, the very belief that there is no such thing as a no-win scenario drastically changes the actions you take. Only since the Kobyashimaru is an inherently philosophical subject, I would like to point to Kierkegaard's three stages of life, particularly the Knight of Faith and the Knight of Infinite Resignation. The Knight of Infinite Resignation realizes the situation is impossible, but will soldier on, following his duty to accomplish what he can despite the outcome. Though Knight of Faith realizes the impossibility of the situation he will actually believe it will be resolved, looking past the crisis point to the results of his actions.

Though I am far from it, I want to be a Knight of Faith and the Kobyashimaru is an excellent thought experiment to test that concept.

[Starfox1701]

That reminds me of my favorite B5 Quote.

"All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments of revalation. G'Quan wrote 'There is a greater darkness then the one we fight; it is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way.' The war we fight is not against powers or principalities; it is against chaos and dispair. Greater then the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us waiting in moments of transition to be born in moments of revalation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is only born in pain."

[Panzergranate]

In the Kobyashimaru test a French captain, with an all French crew, would have these options:

Run away immediately so as to have a good head start.

Failing the above tactic, unconditional surrender.

Colaborate.

Wait for British, American and Canadian crewed starships to come and rescue them.
 
Note that in TNG "mission to Farpoint" Picard's first instictive reaction, as a Frenchman, was to offer unconditional surrender to Q.

[Starfox1701]

In Jean Luc's defence he was just barrowing a page out of Capt. Kirk's play book. After all he is the only Starfleet Officer to ever surrender the whole federation.