Topic: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1

[FireSoul]

My argument is simply this: I've added exposure to ADB. I hope I helped them increase their sales, beyond my purchasing stuff from them myself. I really do not see how my work can be any problem: it's basically free advertisement and endorsement.

-- FS

Your argument fails.

How have you increased their sales? Where is your proof? You have none, unfortunately, that I've seen. ADB seems to feel the same way.

Ask ADB. I already did.

Your just not making any money off this, which is why they haven't come after you. This isn't fantasy, and ADB is not in business for doing good things, which I've found out several years ago. They are still quite pissed at the entire SFC series, as they feel they didn't get their fair share of money from the licensing, and have expressed their position that if anything is added that is based upon current / past modules, they will ensure it's licensed , or removed.

The bottom line is it'd cost more money than it's worth right now to come after you, because they'd have to show certain things in a Civil Court, loss of use, copyright infrigements, etc... which you'd not be able to fight and would likely just cave in and remove everything. 

That would change if we included it in our CE and SFC4. CE is not a worry as we've already decided what we're going to use in regards to the shiplist (stock Taldren, obviously), but SFC4 is something we're going to work on and doing so means trying to resolve the bad blood there and work it out so we can use new stuff, or the stuff that was already there but never finished and is based upon ADB stuff.

This is why coders usually don't run businesses And please Firesoul, before your ego blows the back of your head off, take a couple moments to breath and think about what I'm saying. While you may wish your argument was enough, I'm confident you'll see the truth if you really want to and anything you may suddenly desire to do (read: react) in regards to ADB would likely simply make the matter worse for the future of SFC.

So please, simply continue your great work on your MOD, and I think the community knows we'll be using it as a standard for the length of the life of SFC, as it's already established itself. Leave the rest to the people who've dealt with it before, and have experience with it.

Regards,

I am currently reviewing the following and taking time to make a decision.

http://starfleetgames.com/web_policy.shtml
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

[FireSoul]

So what did you finally do for XP refits?  The only thing that I didn't think would be too cheezy won't be the XPR power refit can conversion of Phaser 2 to Phaser 1, everything else would be absurdly un-balanced.

Hey DH,
Your questions can be answered here: http://klingon.pet.dhs.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=X-Ships:_SFB_to_SFC_rules

[Magnum357]

Hey Firesoul, take your time on what you decide for your mod and SFC.  I remember years ago that the whole deal on how they created SFC (legally) was weird and amazing back in the late 90's.

[Dizzy]

Firesoul, the Andros! mission was a blast. Thank you very much for that.

eh?

[FireSoul]

Firesoul, the Andros! mission was a blast. Thank you very much for that.

eh?

woops! I had incomplete documentation! Fixed.

http://klingon.pet.dhs.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=OP%2B_Contents_and_Changes#Andros_as_Monsters
http://klingon.pet.dhs.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=OP%2B_Contents_and_Changes#Mutiplayer_Mission_included:_Andros.21


( tl;dr for Dizzy: I added a few Andros as Monsters and included a multiplayer mission much like coopace to take them on. Try it! )

[FireSoul]

Hey Firesoul, take your time on what you decide for your mod and SFC.  I remember years ago that the whole deal on how they created SFC (legally) was weird and amazing back in the late 90's.

I will definitely take my time on this one.

My legal advisor (wife) suggests I not only let it sit for me to think about, but to wait to at least till or after the weekend to decide on what to do. I will research, ponder and make an educated decision.

[Starfox1701]

I think FA Frey XC is right just keeo doing what you are doing and you will be fine. Since ADB isn't activly pursuing new video games at this time they couldn't reasonably claim any damages which would make going after you not only not profiable but give a very public appearince of being mean spirited and that would hurt themselves and their sells. For them in this economic climate that would be very counter productive so baring a real run of insanity over there you should be safe right FA Frey XC?

[Klingon Fanatic]

Firesoul,

I hope ABD/Mr. Cole can appreciate that your mod is a labor of love and nothing more than an homage to a super complex game that you have a tremendous amount of respect for.

If ABD/Mr. Cole do not appreciate your work, I say move it to the TMP setting where they do not have rights from the current Star Trek Intellectual property owners. Then replace the Andromedans with TMP era Borg or TOS Kelvins, rename the ship classes (e.g. D5W to say Klingon Light War Cruiser variant 1) and then go with the canon races and weapon names. There are more than enough non-ABD ships out there to make something totally different should it become necessary.

SFC will never be SFB for the PC.

There are too many limitations in the exisiting SFC games to allow for a total 100% conversion any way.

As much as I am NOT a huge fan of TOS/SFB Firesoul, I have been willing to play your mod without torpedo armed and cloaking Klingon warships.

On the otherhand, if you decide to depart the SFB ruleset, the TMP setting offers a multitude of options as well, including using Trek canon, torpedo armed and cloaking Klingon warships...


Best wishes, respect and honor to you for your continued work on this amazing project.

Qapla'

KF

[EschelonOfJudgemnt]

The main point is that while the Dynaverse team can't do this mod (due to licensing agreements), Firesoul is not bound to those same licensing agreements (unless he signs on for the SFC:EAW revision that is underway).  Until a cease and desist letter appears, and due to the fact that there is no SSD in SFC (it is abstracted, however), Firesoul isn't really copying anything verbatim.  Plus, he is having to make adjustments for SFC versions, and use non-ADB models (I've yet to see an ADB guy do any modeling here, is there even one?).  So his shiplist is really it's own thing.

That being said, if Firesoul were to post SSDs from modules on this forum, THEN we'd have a clear infringement.  He has not done so, and hopefully never does.  Plus, damage works somewhat differently in SFC (two hits for systems intead of one, for example), so it isn't really the same thing.  As long as he is not profiting from his OP+ shiplist, I think Frey has it right - it isn't worth the hassle.  Plus, Firesoul is generating interest in these new modules, which is a good thing as he pointed out.  While I don't play SFB anymore, if I ever hit the lottery I wouldn't mind purchasing some new modules...

I can also argue this the other way, but the fact that nothing is word for word I think gives a little wiggle room.

Models are another story.  Fortunately, many of the SFC models for the 'non-movie/tv' ships are not direct copies of something that is licensed.  But that's a topic for another thread I think.

Also, keep in mind that Frey and the boys have been selling digital copies of EAW (last I checked anyways), so they are definitely subject to the licensing terms which they've worked out - I'd imagine ADB is getting a little more cash from these sales, miniscule as it might be.

[FA Frey XC]

I would like to give some praise to Firesoul in his very professional response to this, as well as the discussion we had on Dynaverse Teamspeak last night.

It's refreshing (while not surprising considering it's Firesoul and our past together) to have someone do their due diligence, then have the professional courtesy to step up and discuss what they discovered. Firesoul did so in a way that was professional, courteous and above and beyond. Grats to you, Sir, for your respect in YOURSELF.

I said it last night, and I'll say it here for all to see: D.Net will -ALWAYS- support Firesouls OP Plus as the PREMIER shiplist for SFC. His work speaks for itself, and I believe we are on the same page now in regards to not simply ensuring our reflective works are protected, but to work together to ensure BOTH works are protected, and the best they can be.

Again, thank you Firesoul. I genuinelly appreciate the respect and honour you have shown.

<S>

Regards,

[FA Frey XC]

I think FA Frey XC is right just keeo doing what you are doing and you will be fine. Since ADB isn't activly pursuing new video games at this time they couldn't reasonably claim any damages which would make going after you not only not profiable but give a very public appearince of being mean spirited and that would hurt themselves and their sells. For them in this economic climate that would be very counter productive so baring a real run of insanity over there you should be safe right FA Frey XC?

Steve Cole @ ADB seems to care less for public opinion and more for dollar signs. It's disappointing, but I really don't want to go into more detail our of respect for our mutual conversation, and the privacy thereun (and quite honestly some of his replies I could not show here anyway, due to the language and what not ).

The proof of my statement is there, in their forums, and on the webs. I need say nothing more.

Regards,

[FA Frey XC]

Also, keep in mind that Frey and the boys have been selling digital copies of EAW (last I checked anyways), so they are definitely subject to the licensing terms which they've worked out - I'd imagine ADB is getting a little more cash from these sales, miniscule as it might be.

ADB is getting nothing from the sales of EAW, as they refused to even enter into licensing discussions with D.Net. We are operating under the "Fair-Use" concept - the "sales" are actually only for the processing / handling of the order and what not - we are -not- charging money for the actual game. Now we could, because I have a legal chain of ownership that shows I have the rights to EAW / OP  at this time, but:

1.) It wouldn't be right, it would violate our charter
2.) I wouldn't feel right about trying to make money off someone elses hard work.

That's why we're fixing EAW, getting it to run on Vista / Win 7 (BETA ANYONE), then getting EAW up to OP standards in regards to patch levels, functionality (sans the cartel layer in the Dynaverse campaigns) and polishing our scripted missions.

We might even add a small XenoCorp campaign

Then we look at SFC4

But the point is, we're allowed to do that as long as we are operating in a non-profit status (which we are) and we're not making any money. D.Net hasn't made money since it's been UP - I'm constantly running a loss in this business venture.

If ADB wishes to engage in civil, realistic discussions about including other materials, then I'd be 100% up for it. However, based upon the discussions I had with Mr. Cole a couple years ago ... unless somethings changed, we'll hear the same "You've got to pay us for the licensing for EAW / OP / SFC3 AND this new thing before we even get any further".

That's not my issue, Mr. Cole. That's yours.

Regards,

[FPF-DieHard]

Then we look at SFC4

Space Navy Control?  You might as well divorce it.  The combat engine is what makes this game amazing regardless of the IP used for it.

[Age]

Firesoul,

I hope ABD/Mr. Cole can appreciate that your mod is a labor of love and nothing more than an homage to a super complex game that you have a tremendous amount of respect for.

If ABD/Mr. Cole do not appreciate your work, I say move it to the TMP setting where they do not have rights from the current Star Trek Intellectual property owners. Then replace the Andromedans with TMP era Borg or TOS Kelvins, rename the ship classes (e.g. D5W to say Klingon Light War Cruiser variant 1) and then go with the canon races and weapon names. There are more than enough non-ABD ships out there to make something totally different should it become necessary.

SFC will never be SFB for the PC.

There are too many limitations in the exisiting SFC games to allow for a total 100% conversion any way.

As much as I am NOT a huge fan of TOS/SFB Firesoul, I have been willing to play your mod without torpedo armed and cloaking Klingon warships.

On the otherhand, if you decide to depart the SFB ruleset, the TMP setting offers a multitude of options as well, including using Trek canon, torpedo armed and cloaking Klingon warships...


Best wishes, respect and honor to you for your continued work on this amazing project.

Qapla'

KF

I like some of your Ideas here as I am more of pure Star Trek fan not an ADB fan and give all Fed CAs 6 Transporters as that is what they have.

What rule sets have been discussed with ragards to SFC4 will there be from SFC3 any time frame?

 

[FireSoul]

Well, Frey half-spilled the beans, but here's the bottom line:

1- I won't joke about the legal issues behind the mod anymore. ie: "oh, I'll just make a mod for that too." I can't just take it for granted that it'll be okay. I need to take time to evaluate due diligence for every project I work on.

2- I have reviewed ADB's posts and opinions on comments regarding SFC, licensing, etc. I have also read their On-Line Policy. OP+'s site and its downloadable content counts as an unauthorized site within their own definition but is not hosting any copyright materials owned by ADB.

3- I have reviewed the online-available documents and looked into where I stand in regards to OP+ and the website it is hosted on.
Of interest:

• OP+ website's:  http://klingon.pet.dhs.org
• Copyright Law of the United States of America and Related Laws Contained in Title 17 of the United States Code : http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html, specifically: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
• Useful, a wikipedia article that defines what a Video Game Mod is..  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_%28computer_gaming%29
• A very useful Electronic Frontier Foundation article on "Internet Law Treatise" and Fair Use: http://ilt.eff.org/index.php/Copyright:_Fair_Use#Transformativeness

4- I have determined that OP+ is a transformative derivative work and constitutes a 'Fair Use' of the ADB materials it was based on.

5- I have written up a Fair Use page for my wiki. (link: http://klingon.pet.dhs.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=OP%2B_Fair_Use)
Here is the current text:

Fair Use Notice

This site and game modification may contain copyrighted materials. The materials available on this site with regards to StarFleet Command and StarFleet Battles are considered Transformative works, and are publicly available, are non-commercial in nature and with no profit to ourselves.


We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law.


Copyrights

STAR TREK: Starfleet Command (R) Volume II - Orion Pirates Software (C) 2001 Interplay Entertainment Corp. All Rights Reserved. TM, (R), and (C) 2001 Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK (R) and related elements are trademarks of Paramount Pictures. All Rights Reserved. Some elements are based upon the board games created by Amarillo Design Bureau (C) 1977-2001. Taldren and the Taldren logo are trademarks of Taldren Inc. Exclusively licensed and distributed by Interplay Entertainment Corp. All other trademarks and copyrights are the property of their respective owners.


For more information, see:

    http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html
    http://ilt.eff.org/index.php/Copyright:_Fair_Use#Transformativeness

6- I will include a variant of this text in the "license" file/readme included with OP+.



I firmly believe I am doing the right thing. I respect ADB. I like their material, and I am updating a Mod that the community will likely enjoy. I hope that community members recognizes that ADB did fine work too and should consider visiting their site, look at their products and see if there's anything of interest to him/her/it.

However, at the same time, I want to clearly state that I have indeed reviewed the issues at hand and I think this mod is beneficial to ADB. It's not costing anyone a cent, not taking away any customers, and it is increasing awareness to ADB's products.


-- FireSoul

[FireSoul]

Last Call for RC5!


I may decide to release tomorrow if RC5 looks good. Please take a look at it and let me know.


-- FS

[D Boons Ghost]

I've been playing with the RC5 rather extensively the past couple of days.  Everything is fantastic on my end.

The planet hardpoint fixes are pretty darned evil. 

Great job (as always).

[FireSoul]

All right, everyone. I am currently uploading a repack of RC5 (Fair Use update) to my server.

Please consider this thread closed. I will post a new thread for the release. Thanks for your help, attention and everything else.

-- FS