Topic: Sci Fi Poll 15 Star Trek Edition.

[Sirgod]

Star Trek TMP (1979) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079945/

Trailer 

Star Trek - The Motion Picture - Trailer

VS

Star Trek Generations (1994) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111280/

Trailer

star trek generations trailer

Stephen

[FoaS_XC]

TMP might be of awkward pacing, but it IS classic trek. Generations was good, but it wasn't AS good.

[EschelonOfJudgemnt]

Yay, an easy one (for me, anyways)!

I remember seeing ST-TMP in the theater for the first time in 70 MM and the cool sound system (back when theaters with deluxe sound systems were a big deal, at least around here).  That movie brought us the excellent Klingon Battle theme music (and the Ktingas), the TMP Enterprise (which is a thing of beauty), not to mention the Vulcan and Klingon languages, plus they threw in the bald chick for good measure.  Lots of new ground was laid down in this movie.

In comparison, Generations killed off Kirk.  At least Shatner had Boston Legal after that... and any actor that can still find regular work at 80 years old deserves Kudos in my book.

Generations did some cool things, but pales in comparison to the legacy TMP left in it's wake!

BTW, Bill is releasing a new album this year.  The guest musician list is rather impressive...

http://www.williamshatner.com/Article419.phtml

[Andromeda]

That's all I remember about ST:G.  It killed Kirk.  Of course, he was revived in Shatner novels, but still they killed Captain I'd have slept with him Kirk.  I couldn't tell you much else about the movie.  I tried to forget it.  TMP was beautiful but boring.  Too much Enterprise worship and not enough story.  I can forgive it because it was the first trek in decades. 

[FCM_SFHQ_XC]

TMP because it is more classic, even if a bit boring minus the klingons and the end of course ;p

[knightstorm]

TMP introduced the the classic opening score, the Klingon theme song, and the ridge headed Klingons (Mark Leonard).  One thing I really disliked about it was the plot of a voyager probe falling into a black hole.  That's the sort of idiocy that's better suited for Abrams' trash.  The things I liked about Generations were the fact that it was the last time you got to see Scotty, and it was cool to have Kirk interacting with Picard even if he died in the end.  I'm also glad they got rid of the D so they could replace it with a more worthy Enterprise.  I think the evacuation sequence shows just how idiotic the Galaxy class was.  It looked like something out of the movie Airplane.

[Tulwar]

This was a hard one.  Both movies stank.  The thing in ST TMP's favor was the models of the Enterprise and the Klingon Battle Cruiser.  Without this horrible film, these beautiful models would have never been created.

[Lono]

This was a hard one.  Both movies stank.  The thing in ST TMP's favor was the models of the Enterprise and the Klingon Battle Cruiser.  Without this horrible film, these beautiful models would have never been created.

Seconded!

However I do watch Generations ocassionally but can rarely sit through anything but the excellent opening of TMP.

But - Whoopie Goldberg's Time Ribbon of Pleasure!?!? - it still gives me nightmares!

TMP FTW!

[762_XC]

I think both of these films in general are very underrated.

TMP had a lot going for it. The plot was novel, the effects were fantastic, and the score was breathtaking (the incidental music was even better than the main theme IMHO). Unfortunately it suffered badly from pacing, playing more like a two hour version of "The Immunity Syndrome".

Generations also had a lot going for it. There were a lot of small moments I really enjoyed - the sailing ship Enterprise ("What's a stun'sl?"), Riker walking onto the bridge wearing an early 19th century naval uniform, Picard actually dressing down Data for not coping with his emotions, particularly after he had to cope with the death of his brother and nephew. As good as Stewart is I felt this was one of his better performances. And pretty much all of McDowell's scenes were awesome.

But I think there was also a big feeling of missed potential. Kirk's death was felt to be anticlimactic by many. And the tendency to portray the TOS actors in a campy fashion in the later films really wore here, particularly when Kirk meets Picard...two great captains with vastly different styles. Unfortunately Kirk came out of that looking like a patsy because he had almost no gravitas after Star Trek III. There was also too much Guinan...easily the second most annoying character from TNG.

Overall I think TMP is the better film.

 

[knightstorm]

This was a hard one.  Both movies stank.  The thing in ST TMP's favor was the models of the Enterprise and the Klingon Battle Cruiser.  Without this horrible film, these beautiful models would have never been created.

Seconded!

However I do watch Generations ocassionally but can rarely sit through anything but the excellent opening of TMP.

Still - Whoopie Goldberg's Time Ribbon of Pleasure!?!? - it still gives me nightmares!

TMP FTW!

 

Curse you and your perverted mind for putting that image in my head!

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Generations is what I view the start of Berman disregarding what has come before in star trek. You can't have scotty on board the enterprise B and Kirk dying. In TNG Relics episode, Scotty upon being rescued and Ryker identifying that he is from the enterprise, asks Ryker if Kirk got the old girl out of mothballs. This in as much of the lousy killing off of kirk makes Generations one of the worst trek movies made. Nothing after generations is credible based on this major discontinuity.

[TAnimaL]

I too think this is a tough one, one that gets complicated by "external" factors, ie, when you saw it, the death of a character....

I saw TMP more times in the theater than any film, mebbe 9 or 10 times, cutting school once to do so. I love that film dearly and watch it almost every Dec 6th, but...
It is a rather flawed film. The music, the epic start, the first 15 minutes that blew me away... and then grinds to a halt as soon as someone speaks (English) in the film. None of the character traits that made TOS, odd pacing, bad acting.... No mattter how much I love it, it's not a good movie.

I'm opening myself up for some grief here, but by the time 1994 came around, I was a bigger fan of TNG than of TOS, especially how the "classic" movies had distorted TOS into comic book plots. (I maintain that "Search for Spock" was the first "real" Trek movie, with the 'scifi" of TMP and the characterizations of TWOK, and I will take you all on in a bunch or one at a time to prove it!). What was great about Generations was that... it was an episode, and I mean that in a complimentary way. There was no "let's get the crew back together," no "this madman will destroy the Earth/universe," just the good ole Big E, out doing it's thing, getting in trouble. Characters have arcs, some people interact, the bad guys has their own agenda... I liked how one Captain was pining for the family he never made time to have, and the other Captain wondered if he shoulda stayed in the cabin with his dog and woman. In the end, I think I was sadder to see 1701-D go that Kirk, only because his time had pat and at least he went down fighting.

In truth though, Generations is not a fabulous film either. Coulda done more with Kirk in the future, that Nexus certainly was a convenient plot device, and geez, looked mostly like a TV movie...

So, I'm going to go with Generations just barely, if only to stick up for TNG, (including Whoopi ). And to disagree with you slightly 762_XC; I agree that the TOS cast was looking campy in ST4-6 (especially 4. Ugh), but I think Generations redeemed them. Say what you will about Treknobabble, but to hear Scotty come up with a technical answer and Chekov to act other than "funny sunding Russian guy" was a treat. It's a shame that most of the TOS cast bowed out; that bridge scene would been more like a TOS episode than anything since Turnabout Intruder.

And give credit where credit is due... Sirgod, these are some good polls you've got going... very challenging and discussion-provoking!

[TAnimaL]

ugh, that whole "Berman is the devil" meme is so overwrought with handwringing. You do realize that there's no "super notebook" with all of Trek layed out in order? That the writers are making it up as they go along? FWIW, GR had always maintained that Kirk was dead by the time of TNG, so Scotty's line was just from the confusion of spending 70+ years in a transporter beam. Give the guy a break, geez. 

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

No breaks for Berman. A friend of mine interviewed Berman several years back and he had a bust of rodenberry with a blindfold on it.  I read a Berman interview where he said he didn't feel his hands should be tied by what came before as far as writing. I will cut no slack for lazy and disrespectful. Not buying the scotty confused BS either.

[Sirgod]

Hey thanks for the Nod TAnimal. Discussion was exactly what I had hoped for when I started this bro.

Stephen

[knightstorm]

No breaks for Berman. A friend of mine interviewed Berman several years back and he had a bust of rodenberry with a blindfold on it.  I read a Berman interview where he said he didn't feel his hands should be tied by what came before as far as writing. I will cut no slack for lazy and disrespectful. Not buying the scotty confused BS either.

Yeah, lets see why Rodenberry is blindfolded.  Sure he created TOS, but he also gave us TMP, and the first season of TNG.  That's right it was his brilliant idea to have guys running around in skirts!!  BTW, TMP is the only Trek film he was heavily involved in because it sucked so badly that the studio wouldn't let him touch it again.  The only reason they brought him out of retirement for TNG was they knew they were never going to get the old fanbase to watch a new series unless they could create some links to him.  Berman was in charge for most of TNG, and DS9, and First Contact.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Besides some of the things mentioned here. (Enterprise, Klingons)  I had to vote for TMP because, I can listen to the soundtrack CD all day long (and I do on occasion, driving all day and nothing good on the radio means I'm running on a CD).  Goldsmith put together a masterpiece with that one.  His only mistake was not including the TOS theme into the music.  (which he fixed later by simply adding it to the beginning)  Generations had a decent soundtrack.  I like the theme and the first few scores, but once it moves to the TNG portion, it seems kinda bland.

On a related note, JJ should have had Joel Goldsmith do the score for Trek XI.

[TAnimaL]

lotta apocryphal info and confirmation bias in those posts. Not calling anyone a liar, but the old "friend of mine" anecdote usually turns out to be bogus.

-the blindfold on the bust of GR is common knowledge, in many articles and books (ie - STTNG Companion). RB put the blindfold on when a writer was suggesting something contrary to GR's vision (ie, using "space pirates" in TNG "The Gambit"), but the blindfold was a joke, get it?

- I'm trying hard not let sarcasm or snark sneak in here - I was sorta making a joke about Scotty's confusion, but duh, "Relics" was witten 2 years before "Generations." They certainly weren't going to go back and reshoot the TV show, and since Doohan was one of the few TOS cast to sign up for Generations, so they had to use him. It's like "UESPA" or "Romulans are pure impulse" in TOS, TV writers will write their episodes, not think "what if they make a movie involving these chaacters someday that contradict my lovely scene?"

- by most reports, GR and RB got along pretty famously, and RB strove pretty hard to follow GRs vision while trying to make a fresh TV show. It's pretty safe to say that RB was the chosen successor, and chosen by GR himself.

- I'm old fanbase, kid. I watched every episode of anything called Star Trek, live from 1969 on. I loved TOS, and I loved TNG. In fact, I liked or loved all of it until Abrams came along.

Television is a producer's medium. The EP runs the show and makes the big calls, the producers make it happen and work, and writers bring in ideas and characterizations, which the actors bring to life. There were a lot of producers and writers that made TOS happen, and GR has gotten a little too much solo credit over the years, something I think even he would admit to. Gene Coon, Bob Justman, DC Fontana and dozens of others made TOS happen, just as Justman, Piller Braga and dozens made TNG happen. I think it comes down a personal choice - did you like TNG (and their followups)? If you hated it, then there's nothing anyone can say good about it or Berman that you won't scoff at.

Film is a director's medium. What's true of TV production still holds true here, but it's the director who drives and molds the film. If you gonna throw some hate on TMP, make sure you hit Wise with some of that. GR wasn't a movie producer, for sure, but what Paramount movies was doing was trying to cut out the guy who would say "In the ST future humans aren't into greed and revenge and all those things that make we make movies out of." And lo, they made movies that were Star Wars clones about blowing up the Death Star instead of science fiction.

In honor of this thread, I went and put a skirt on. It's called a kilt. C'mon, say something about it, I dare you...

[knightstorm]

lotta apocryphal info and confirmation bias in those posts. Not calling anyone a liar, but the old "friend of mine" anecdote usually turns out to be bogus.

-the blindfold on the bust of GR is common knowledge, in many articles and books (ie - STTNG Companion). RB put the blindfold on when a writer was suggesting something contrary to GR's vision (ie, using "space pirates" in TNG "The Gambit"), but the blindfold was a joke, get it?

- I'm trying hard not let sarcasm or snark sneak in here - I was sorta making a joke about Scotty's confusion, but duh, "Relics" was witten 2 years before "Generations." They certainly weren't going to go back and reshoot the TV show, and since Doohan was one of the few TOS cast to sign up for Generations, so they had to use him. It's like "UESPA" or "Romulans are pure impulse" in TOS, TV writers will write their episodes, not think "what if they make a movie involving these chaacters someday that contradict my lovely scene?"

- by most reports, GR and RB got along pretty famously, and RB strove pretty hard to follow GRs vision while trying to make a fresh TV show. It's pretty safe to say that RB was the chosen successor, and chosen by GR himself.

- I'm old fanbase, kid. I watched every episode of anything called Star Trek, live from 1969 on. I loved TOS, and I loved TNG. In fact, I liked or loved all of it until Abrams came along.

Television is a producer's medium. The EP runs the show and makes the big calls, the producers make it happen and work, and writers bring in ideas and characterizations, which the actors bring to life. There were a lot of producers and writers that made TOS happen, and GR has gotten a little too much solo credit over the years, something I think even he would admit to. Gene Coon, Bob Justman, DC Fontana and dozens of others made TOS happen, just as Justman, Piller Braga and dozens made TNG happen. I think it comes down a personal choice - did you like TNG (and their followups)? If you hated it, then there's nothing anyone can say good about it or Berman that you won't scoff at.

Film is a director's medium. What's true of TV production still holds true here, but it's the director who drives and molds the film. If you gonna throw some hate on TMP, make sure you hit Wise with some of that. GR wasn't a movie producer, for sure, but what Paramount movies was doing was trying to cut out the guy who would say "In the ST future humans aren't into greed and revenge and all those things that make we make movies out of." And lo, they made movies that were Star Wars clones about blowing up the Death Star instead of science fiction.

In honor of this thread, I went and put a skirt on. It's called a kilt. C'mon, say something about it, I dare you...

I'm just sick of reading all of those Rodenberry was god/Berman is the devil tirades.  Also, I blame the failure of Enterprise not on the quality of the show, but on the fact that it was tied to UPN.

Your kilt is a manly skirt unlike the "skant" they made those poor male extras run around in.

[Age]

I voted Star Trek TMP as Generations was the start of the death of the franchise.The real Capt Kirk would of taken the capt seat instead of going down to fix those isolinear chips.