Topic: Microsoft Technet now unreadable on dialup...

[Bonk]

And here I was making huge efforts in web development to minimise bandwidth consumption and optimise performance.

I guess microsoft is going the other way. This is why data charges on your phones will continue to rise...(I'll never own one)

Over 10 minutes at 48.8 Kbps... and  http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS10-090.mspx is still a blank page. Wow, these people are supposed to be professionals. :shakes head:

I guess Microsoft no longer supports dial-up. Does windows seven still support modems?

[marstone]

Unlimited data plan on my phone. A really good thing.

Sad thing is the more speed on the net means more sloppy programming (and useless bells and whistles added).

I seen the trend back in '89 when taking programming classes at my U.  I was criticized for not using a sub routine for a function only used from one part of the program (so why subroutine it, just put it there). When I brought up the overhead in resources to do a procedure call.  The answer given was, there will alway be more memory and faster processors so don't worry about it.

Same thought is now on the net. Always faster connections so why worry. 

[Javora]

Unlimited data plan on my phone. A really good thing.

Sad thing is the more speed on the net means more sloppy programming (and useless bells and whistles added).

I seen the trend back in '89 when taking programming classes at my U.  I was criticized for not using a sub routine for a function only used from one part of the program (so why subroutine it, just put it there). When I brought up the overhead in resources to do a procedure call.  The answer given was, there will alway be more memory and faster processors so don't worry about it.

Same thought is now on the net. Always faster connections so why worry.

The person who criticized you gave you the wrong answer IMHO.  Back during that time the trend was to make as much of the program as portable as you can.  This way the code can be reused again and again if needed.  When I took Computer Science I and II programming in Pascal, the main body of my program consisted of the following:

BEGIN
Workhorse;
END.

Where as Workhorse was a procedure that executed the entire program.  If I had anything else in the main body of my programs then my professors would mark me down for it.  'Why write code for something if you or someone else has already done the work for you' was what I was always told.  It all sounds well and good until you have to debug someone sloppy code as you put it.

That's the down side to progress in technology, I see it as an acceptable evil.  While I don't like some of what I see, ads, viruses, malware, etc, if it wasn't for progress then something like Facebook would be nothing but a really big Bulletin Board System that people dialed into with a 300 baud modem.  And something like starting my car from my cell phone would be nothing but a dream.

[marstone]

Oh agree the answer should have been.

Sure it is only use here but it is to in practice of breaking the program down into logical sections for when it does grow complicated. The language I was working in for programming 1 and 2 was modula-2 at that time.

[Bonk]

My conspiratorial mind jumps immediately to kickbacks. In this case ISP kickbacks.

The way that EA used to abuse CD-ROM drives was disgusting. Copy protection? My ass. It was grind your CD drive to death so you have to replace it.

Code bloat? Vista is classic. They turned cron into the kernel. It is pretty funny really. Look deep into the scheduled tasks in Vista and 7. No more kernel... it is one big task scheduler. Horrific. To get the right click menu from the systray network icon in vista is SEVEN SECONDS!

I agree about reusing other's code and team programming. It just doesn't work out. Sure it sounds great in the classroom... but then all they teach now is java anyway.

These young people think that java and c# can achieve the same things as c and c++. They have been taught to avoid it.

I ranted big time here on young rich vacuous women as the primary tech customers today... but Iron crashed and I lost it. (It does not like rapid keyboard input) Probably for the best. But think it through and it explains exactly what is happening.

That's the down side to progress in technology, I see it as an acceptable evil.  While I don't like some of what I see, ads, viruses, malware, etc, if it wasn't for progress then something like Facebook would be nothing but a really big Bulletin Board System that people dialed into with a 300 baud modem.  And something like starting my car from my cell phone would be nothing but a dream

I disagree. There is nothing stopping people from writing new tight and efficient code for innovative products. The bloat is not needed.

Facebook was a girly naming fluke, that is all. There is nothing special about it whatsoever. No technology innovations. Simple webpages. A name that won the women. That is all.

The new target demographic for technology products is about as far from us as you can get.

Obligatory: Grrrr! Get off my lawn!


...speaking of code bloat, a related interesting observation on softmodems: same connection one softmodem averages 250ms, the other, 1000ms latency. Conexant and Toshiba respectively. (I would have expected the reverse) I think I need to go buy a real USRobotics 56k 0.92 RS232 outboard hardware modem. Those are still pretty expensive... about $300 as I recall.

(I am sure that softmodems have crashed more multiplayer dynaverse battles than I could count. How is the network traffic supposed to travel when the the cpu is completely tied up rendering the game... it has no time to run a virtual modem... Even this modern computer is affected similarly. I expect the issue would be even worse on vista.... waiiit a minute.... vista dynaverse issues... do ethernet adapters behave on Vista/Win7 as softmodems did on 95/NT?  Some testing to do... determine vista/7 cpu use for network traffic alone - with various ethernet cards. Does it vary? I have a funny feeling that this may be what is happening...  peripheral hardware MUST handle network traffic in gaming, NOT the cpu.

[Nemesis]

I think I need to go buy a real USRobotics 56k 0.92 RS232 outboard hardware modem. Those are still pretty expensive... about $300 as I recall.

I bought a spare modem a few months ago it is USR 56k USB and only cost about $60 Cdn.  (Hardware not soft - worked with Linux).

[Bonk]

USB is not acceptable. It must be RS232. New, not used or refurbished. I'll need a good serial input card to go with it.

This is the kind of thing I am thinking of:
http://www.usr.com/products/modem/business-product.asp?sku=USR3453c ($265)
or
http://www.usr.com/products/modem/modem-product.asp?sku=USR5686G  ($90) <-this is the one I was thinking of, and they have come down in price. Only $90. This one used to be $260 and the Courier ~$500.

$90 bucks is pretty good. These never go on sale and people hang on to them forever.

[Capt. Mike]

And here I once suggested we drop the cable and go back...and the Wrath of Mom came forth..I'll stick with the cable

Mike

[Javora]

I disagree. There is nothing stopping people from writing new tight and efficient code for innovative products. The bloat is not needed.

Facebook was a girly naming fluke, that is all. There is nothing special about it whatsoever. No technology innovations. Simple webpages. A name that won the women. That is all.

In that last paragraph I was referring to the advancements in Internet connections only.  It was in response to statement of:  "Same thought is now on the net. Always faster connections so why worry".  I don't think Facebook could survive on Internet connections that were common back in the '80s.  lol.

...speaking of code bloat, a related interesting observation on softmodems: same connection one softmodem averages 250ms, the other, 1000ms latency. Conexant and Toshiba respectively. (I would have expected the reverse) I think I need to go buy a real USRobotics 56k 0.92 RS232 outboard hardware modem. Those are still pretty expensive... about $300 as I recall.

Conexant is a very good and respected modem company.  I would take them over anything except USRobotics for modems IMHO.

(I am sure that softmodems have crashed more multiplayer dynaverse battles than I could count. How is the network traffic supposed to travel when the the cpu is completely tied up rendering the game... it has no time to run a virtual modem... Even this modern computer is affected similarly. I expect the issue would be even worse on vista.... waiiit a minute.... vista dynaverse issues... do ethernet adapters behave on Vista/Win7 as softmodems did on 95/NT?  Some testing to do... determine vista/7 cpu use for network traffic alone - with various ethernet cards. Does it vary? I have a funny feeling that this may be what is happening...  peripheral hardware MUST handle network traffic in gaming, NOT the cpu.

Wouldn't that depend on the individual motherboard?  If the motherboard off loads the Ethernet work on to the CPU then it certainly would impact gaming performance. The CPU is already trying to deal with the latest bloated Windows operating system, depending on the CPU itself being single core or multicore.  I read on MaximumPC a while back about a stand alone NIC card that supposedly did better than the NIC connections on the motherboard.  But looking at the results, it didn't seem like the stand alone card did all that much better.

[Pestalence_XC]

waiiit a minute.... vista dynaverse issues... do ethernet adapters behave on Vista/Win7 as softmodems did on 95/NT?  Some testing to do... determine vista/7 cpu use for network traffic alone - with various ethernet cards. Does it vary? I have a funny feeling that this may be what is happening...  peripheral hardware MUST handle network traffic in gaming, NOT the cpu.

Same problems happen on independant NIC PCI & PCIe x1/x4 card (on card processing, thus eliminating processing from PC CPU).

Also on your comment about Windows 7 using 7 seconds to open a right click menu.. Ummm.. don't take this wrong My first reaction is upgrade hardware rated  5.5 (DX 10) or higher to run Windows 7 or check your install of Win 7 and repair it.

My hardware is 3 years old this coming Feb.

Intel Core 2 E6750 @ 2.67Ghz @1333Mhz FSB
4GB Patriot Extreme DDR2 RAM @900Mhz FSB
Hauppage 1800HVP TV Tuner
BFG NVidia 8800 GTX OC2 768MB gDDR3 Vide Card

HDD history
Started with WD 320GB HDD @ 7200 RPM 16MB Cache
Upgraded to WD 500GB HDD @ 7200 RPM 16MB Cache
Now running Seagate Baracuda 1 TB HDD @ 7200 RPM 32MB cache with the WD 500GB as a secondary drive / storage - the 320 GB drive is toast.

right click menu - instant in any application / browser / window / desktop / icon / etc.
Programs launch - between 2 to 8 seconds.
Cold boot - with Prefetch files intact - 18 seconds to password screen, additional 8 seconds to desktop, additional 10 seconds until HDD stops preloading - With Prefetch files cleared. changed load to desktop from password screen to 15 seconds and also change HDD preload to 45 seconds (system generating *.pf files) for the prefetcher. (PF files should be cleared at least once a month followed by 2 reboots to maintain system speed).

just saying.. if it is taking 7 seconds to open a right click menu, there is something either wrong with the Windows Install or something is wrong with the hardware.

my system rating under Win 7 is 5.9 (5.9 for HDD because not in Raid0 Config, not having 64MB cache on the HDD and not the 10K or faster RPM speeds)

My hardware ratings :

CPU - 6.2 rating
RAM - 6.2 rating
GPU - 6.9 rating - desktop Aero performance test
Gaming GPU - 6.9 rating - 3D Business and gaming performance test
HDD - 5.9 rating

7.9 is the highest score possible.

system score based on lowest score.. for me it is the HDD.

Games for Windows is using this rating system (Single Numerical only) more and more to help match hardware to software to avoid lagging times (like your 7 second right click).

Maybe tweaking your system some to improve performance? If ya shoot me your hardware config, maybe I can come up with some tweaks.

[Bonk]

Thanks for the info Pestalence! Good to see you!

Only ONE (right)click takes seven seconds - the first time on the systray network icon. I am quite sure it is NOT hardware related. (and it happens first click on the icon regardless of if it is a right or left click...) It takes so long that I end up walking away or starting something else while I wait for windows to laod up its little IE driven pain in the ass network center in a popup balloon.....(chromed IE window) that it probably what I am waiting for Internet Explorer first startup time to show me that pretty little box that I really do not care about just give me access to the network controls dammit.

I wonder if there is a command line to issue to connect a particular network connection... that would be perfect for me. Something that I can type, not click.

Program launches and all user input is quite snappy on this machine (no on-access virus scanner). It is blinding fast running XP. Kubuntu borked itself, haven't booted to it in years now. (Well the ATI proprietary drivers did it actually...)

There is just one icon that takes seven seconds... they delayed loading something. (And its vista I'm running)

I haven't run seven yet. Vista is so appalling that I may never. Have they still neglected actual kernel development and are still writing one huge task-scheduler-as-an-OS? (really, dig into the default an immense task list on vista... it is shocking... they really did stop actual kernel development by the looks of it - it is worst for items scheduled at boot and login.  It is hard-disk failure by design, pure and simple.)

The other classic one for me is the BITS service...  Um, yeah right... what did we need that for? (I know what it is supposed to do...) Windows update... the status bar is completely inaccurate. It says it is downloading files while it grinds the harddisk locally for about 20 minutes and you are supposed to believe it is downloading things...

I have noticed lately that many developers have no idea what their progress bars actually indicate. Avast is affected as well. Everyone develops on uper-duper connections and the most expensive hardware money can buy. That is a really bad mistake. Really Bad. Frameworks probably have something to do with it too, the only way a progress bar does not reflect what your code is doing is if somebody else wrote it for you and you don't fully understand how it works.

My Vista machine rates 2.6, but it rated 3.9 when I bought it. (and I have upgraded the ram). As such I take that rating system with a grain of salt. If adding RAM decreases the rating... I don't think that is what did it though... I think Vista SP1 sharply modified the ratings values.

If I boot to XP the machine smokes (not literally, but it is quite fast).

[manitoba1073]

You know Bonk, I really have to ask you what are your computer stats, Really.


 The reason for the drop on the Widex score drop is it was updated for more newer hardware configurations, Hence why your score would have dropped if you hadnt upgraded with faster and better parts.


 The only way I can see having problems with Vista was by having low end parts. I had almost no problems on my Vista Ultimate machine. And As much as I liked Vista I went ahead and got Win7 Ultimate 64 bit.

 Also forgot to ask, don't you have acces to DSL where you're at? Cause Dial-up is beyond yuck.


 Here you go pesty for you hehe , and that 55c is from continuous use over 4 days on the CPU.

[Pestalence_XC]

My Vista machine rates 2.6, but it rated 3.9 when I bought it. (and I have upgraded the ram). As such I take that rating system with a grain of salt. If adding RAM decreases the rating... I don't think that is what did it though... I think Vista SP1 sharply modified the ratings values.

The windows rating system was updated in March 2010 with Vista Sp2 to Windows 7 levels to account for the Intel i7 processor series.

Windows 7 can run on systems lower than a 5.5 rating, however the OS is severely gimped due to under performing hardware. the OS is designed to take advantage of newer hardware.. I find 5.5 to ge the "minimal" benchmark to shoot for for full functionality of the OS.

Also nothing less than 4GB DDR2 Ram running at low latency (maybe even boosted to 1.1v is you have good cooling).

Also running a 4GB memory stick dedicated to Ready Boost works wonders on older systems (this offloads most of the OS from system memory and allows your Ram to be free for programs).

a 6.0 rating (or 5.09 for standard SATA HDDs @7200 RPM with 32 MB cache) is a smooth machine and fair to decent for gaming. If you want a dynamite gaming machine you want to shoot for 6.5 or higher.. the rating system work good if you understand the value levels.

As for Vista vs Win 7, Win 7 blows the doors off Vista, however if you have decent hardware (5.5 rating on the new Windex scores), Vista ultimate x64 is pretty good (not great but better than XP except for the DirectX 8 and lower issues).. lower versions of Vista are stripped versions of Vista Ultimate and as such that broke certain components.

Windows 7 on the other hand improves memory management and works IMHO about 60% better than Vista Ultimate.. and lower versions are 10K times better since with Windows 7, they built it up instead of stripping down like with Vista.. so the core OS in Windows 7 is the Home Edition and the other stuff to improve the OS and boost the OS performance is added on to the core to make the Enterprise and Ultimate editions

Windex rating is the crux for performance.. 5.5 seems to be the breakpoint.. if you are running just an office machine doing mindless repetative tasks with low end 2D / 3D applications, then machines rated 2.0 to 5.5 is good to have. 5.5 to 7.0 is midrange system that is fair to good for gaming (high end), and system ratings 7.1 to 7.9 don't even worry about any applications thrown at it.. a 7.9 machine smokes.. Unfortunately I won't have one rating in the 7.* range until 2012 tax return.. I have to make this one last for another year.

Currently the best I have seen any machine reach is 7.4 fully maxed out, so the Windex leaves room for hardware to grow, at least for the next year or so.

Manitoba, sweet setup you have there.. nice on the RAM.. If you want the ram to hit the magic 7.9 mark.. go to DDR3.. the CPU to 7.9 go to an Intel i975 Extreme... and graphics to go to 7.9 (actually beyone the 7.9 rating cap) the new NVidia 580 GTX (or totally bust the 7.9 Windex rating with 2x 580GTX in SLI ) If you decide to upgrade your drives.. look for drives with 10K or faster RPM with 64MB cache or go with solid state Drives rated at 6Gbps transfer rate(the common version available).. I think 12Gbps transfer rate drives will be hitting the market soon.

If you want to get higher with lower end drives, then go for a Raid0 array and make sure your mainboard supports 6Gbps transfer rate (that will bring you to 6.5 with write protection enabled in Device Manager, 6.8 with write protection disabled) and the drives are sporting 32MB cache (given spin speed is 7200 RPM).

But your rig blows mine out of the water, no doubt about it.. I'm stuck at 5.9 with my HDD, but if I had my HDDs in RAID0 config, I would still only rate a 6.2 due to CPU and ram (or lack there of.. only 4GB instead of 8GB).

Is yours Cryo cool, Water cool or air cool with many fans? Good temps regardless.. Sweet. I like your rig... I'll take it when your done with it.

It has been killing me with my family finances for the last couple of years.. I really want to build a new rig.. this one is 3 years old.. I've lived my life building myself a new system every tax return with exception of the last 2 years (going to be 3 in Feb.. that is ancient in computer terms and I have to make it last until it turns 4).

Sigh....

[manitoba1073]

All air cooled.

 Trust me I'd love the 580's if I could get them lol. I built this machine half from last years tax returns and rest of the parts by saving 20 bucks here and there, not to bad for a rig around $1000 into it. Just managed to get some good sales from newegg.

 Yea unfortuantely my mobo isnt capable of DDR3, but it does have dual SLI 16x capable.

 But my next build if I ever get the chance will be a DDR3 mobo with 6gbs capablities. You can keep your intel chipsets though lol my AMD CPUs are fine. I can OC mine to 3.8ghz on air easily and push it to 4ghz, but thats the edge of it. The gtx 460 I can push her to 833 mhz and be stable and get a few hours of 850 mhz off just air OC.  My case is just a plain old http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147145 and its all powered by http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817121070 .

[FCM_SFHQ_XC]

7 us a far better version than Vista Im far happier with windows 7 Pro than I ever was with Windows Vista Ultimate.. Vista just doesnt get it, its built on thin ice, thankfully the ice is much thicker on Windows 7 .. still perfer XP when I can but 7 does well too, only trouble with 7 has been dynaverse gaming otherwise OK, windows has no response time or waiting issues for me at all.

I agree about reusing other's code and team programming. It just doesn't work out. Sure it sounds great in the classroom... but then all they teach now is java anyway.

These young people think that java and c# can achieve the same things as c and c++. They have been taught to avoid it.

so true, though I was rather surpised there is still c/c++ you have to take in systems programming, so thankfully, at least for me not all java.. I still really enjoy c/c++ anyday over java :}

[FoaS_XC]

I really think that Vista was in the same vein as WindowsME - a crappy OS designed to make the next OS (7 for Vista, XP for ME) look better. I'm still using XPsp3. I'll probably go with a dual-boot 7/XP for the next machine I get, but that's a way bit off.

[knightstorm]

Please don't insult ME by comparing it to Vista.  Vista was much more aggravating to work with.  Also, while ME was never intended to be anything more than a stopgap to plug a hole in MS' product line, Vista seems to have been intended as a major release with a lengthy development time.

[FA Frey XC]

I'll insult ME however i want, thank you. I had to support that leviathan.

Regards,

[Bonk]

 

But what about seven? Are they still treating the task scheduler as the kernel? What kind of tasks are scheduled? Total count for startup? Total count for login? What are the daily, weekly, monthly and annual schedules? Are they as absurd and ridiculous as they are in Vista?

I could run Vista/7 on the fastest machine in the world, but a braindead design is a braindead design... all the hardware in the world will not save it. (thou perhaps that is the goal? )

[FCM_SFHQ_XC]

But what about seven? Are they still treating the task scheduler as the kernel? What kind of tasks are scheduled? Total count for startup? Total count for login? What are the daily, weekly, monthly and annual schedules? Are they as absurd and ridiculous as they are in Vista?

I could run Vista/7 on the fastest machine in the world, but a braindead design is a braindead design... all the hardware in the world will not save it. (thou perhaps that is the goal? )

There are still some tasks scheduled but i disabled most of them, so only a few actually even attempt to run, i forget what the start count was of them when you first install it but pretty much all but a few can just be deleted with no noticable sideeffects so at least on my machine atm tasks arent bad at all. So yea id say they still like the task scheduler but not as much as Vista did, an improvement at least. Id consider it where if your fighting vista a lot might as well get 7 as you'll spend less time fighting it and deal with less of its flaws over vista. They both still have some of the same flaws but at least 7 fixed some of them.