Topic: new ships? (Read 7358 times)

ShadowDiver · « **on:** December 07, 2010, 06:34:32 am »

This is not really a smart question, but I'll throw it out there anyway...

Why is there so many Frigging Federation ships! jeezee....

Every time I turn around New Fed designs are popping up...Can't anyone make new Hydran, Lyran or even Tholian ship designs? I mean of course you can....but why don't you?

And what is with the Gorns.....at first they were rounded hull designs, like the miniatures...and now there long rectangle shaped things.

Now I'm not a modeler..so I really don't know everything involved...but if someone would point me in a direction and tell me what modeling programs you use I'll bang a few out myself....and send them to you.

Klingon Fanatic · « **Reply #1 on:** December 07, 2010, 11:22:05 am »

Quote from: ShadowDiver on December 07, 2010, 06:34:32 am

This is not really a smart question, but I'll throw it out there anyway...

Why is there so many Frigging Federation ships! jeezee....

Every time I turn around New Fed designs are popping up...Can't anyone make new Hydran, Lyran or even Tholian ship designs? I mean of course you can....but why don't you?

And what is with the Gorns.....at first they were rounded hull designs, like the miniatures...and now there long rectangle shaped things.

Now I'm not a modeler..so I really don't know everything involved...but if someone would point me in a direction and tell me what modeling programs you use I'll bang a few out myself....and send them to you.

There are WAAAAAAY too many Federation ships.

FOAS, Thulls, Terradhyne and Wicked Zombie are the predominate non-Federation model builders as of this post.

FoAs would be the best contact regarding model making programs and the like...

Qapla'

KF

ShadowDiver · « **Reply #2 on:** December 07, 2010, 11:54:16 am »

Well thank goodness I'm not the only one thinking that !!!!..

Heghlu'DI' mobbe'lu'chugh QaQpu' Hegh wanI'

GotAFarmYet? · « **Reply #3 on:** December 07, 2010, 04:50:18 pm »

You can use Milkshape (30-50 USD), GMax (Free), or 3dMax V2-5 to export files to a mod formate.

You can make the ships in any modelling program you want as long as it exports to a 3ds file, that file then can be imported to any of those to convert out.
Textures can be made in Paint, any photo editing program, older versions of PaintShop Pro, or PhotoShop.

GotAFarmYet? · « **Reply #4 on:** December 07, 2010, 05:01:55 pm »

To answer why so many Fed ships, well...
thanks to star trek one of the more popular races, everyone that starts the game likes to think they are Kirk.
My personal Favorite looking ships are the Klingons.

Other reasons were the availablity to allow modifications to ships. Many artists out side of the Fed ones had a "No" kitbashing policy to their work.
also altnerate texture sets that were "Free to use" do not exsist very much in outside of Federation sets.
I should know as a few of the Free to use sets were provided by me for the Feds.

So between usage policies and available textures the Feds were the easiest to do modifications to, also all newer games did not carry all the races.
BC and newer games do not have all the races, but all of them have the federation, so some ships are conversions from those games.

As the Modellers have moved to thise games their policies about bashes have pretty much not changed, so the same Fed ones which have the more open policies once again see the most kitBashes and conversions

pepperman · « **Reply #5 on:** December 07, 2010, 06:02:16 pm »

I think in part this is also influenced by the plethera of detailed Federation designs. I also suspect the Federation ships might be a bit easier model.

ShadowDiver · « **Reply #6 on:** December 07, 2010, 06:09:12 pm »

Thanks GAFY...

So in your honest opinion...since I am just starting out and I need a user friendly easy to understand, good instructions...basic level sort of stuff
Which program would you recommend..I'm assuming you have used most of the ones out on the market....
I've herd of GMax before and I diddled with it a little bit...in Dungeon Siege and I think it's the main program (GMax & Siege editor)
http://www.siegenetwork.com/q?dir=Downloads&req=file&id=39

thanks

GotAFarmYet? · « **Reply #7 on:** December 07, 2010, 07:34:55 pm »

the easiest program I used was Milkshape, it is a bare bones program that you had to do everything in to make a model and apply the textures with.
it was also the most manual no auto tools, and the most feature limited of the the three.
GMax is simular to 3DMax and can do most of the items but I found it harder to use, simple things in Milkshape are much more complex to do. On the plus side GMax exports to the other Trek games if I remember correctly. As it is Free and is more like 3DMax it would probably be the best choice, especially if you are planning on moving up to Max, Lightwave, or the other professional programs in the future.
Industry standard is PhotoShop for lots of graphical work and expensive (700+ USD). I use PaintShop Pro version 8.1 (50 USD) at home and would not use a version above 9, which is when Corel bought them and dumbed it down to a photo editor to push there draw product. I use version 8 and Wicked Zombie uses version 6 or 7. It is pretty easy to use and can handle most of the work for games that are old like this one. For the newer games you will have to eventually move up to PhototShop, which has some differences but they are still close enough to make the change to the more expensive one.

You can try E-bay and such for the older version of these programs except 3DMax, the licence on Max once installed doesn't transfer to a new user, on of the complaints about Max ppl have had. They might have fixed this but not sure for the older versions.

There are other means to get programs for a lesser rate but you will not find those from me, but I am sure you probably know of place or two that can help

So summary:
Get GMax as it is Free and is closer, interface wise, to the professional programs used out there.
Check EBay and other software sites for older versions of PSP and PS. PSP versions 6-8 work well for older games, and PhotoShop is the industry standard
most of the things I think are covered here

Kreeargh · « **Reply #8 on:** December 07, 2010, 10:29:56 pm »

Quote from: ShadowDiver on December 07, 2010, 06:34:32 am

This is not really a smart question, but I'll throw it out there anyway...

Why is there so many Frigging Federation ships! jeezee....

Every time I turn around New Fed designs are popping up...Can't anyone make new Hydran, Lyran or even Tholian ship designs? I mean of course you can....but why don't you?

And what is with the Gorns.....at first they were rounded hull designs, like the miniatures...and now there long rectangle shaped things.

Now I'm not a modeler..so I really don't know everything involved...but if someone would point me in a direction and tell me what modeling programs you use I'll bang a few out myself....and send them to you.

Draw up a design im sure someone will be willing to try to model it. Fed designs are more cause its the fan base and easy. Some of us have created entire fleets and get no respect because its not canon theme.

KBF-Kurok · « **Reply #9 on:** December 08, 2010, 01:28:09 am »

blender is a great FREE program for making models.The learning curve is steep to start out but as you learn it it get easier.

GotAFarmYet? · « **Reply #10 on:** December 08, 2010, 04:35:19 am »

Quote from: Kreeargh on December 07, 2010, 10:29:56 pm

Quote from: ShadowDiver on December 07, 2010, 06:34:32 am
This is not really a smart question, but I'll throw it out there anyway...

Why is there so many Frigging Federation ships! jeezee....

Every time I turn around New Fed designs are popping up...Can't anyone make new Hydran, Lyran or even Tholian ship designs? I mean of course you can....but why don't you?

And what is with the Gorns.....at first they were rounded hull designs, like the miniatures...and now there long rectangle shaped things.

Now I'm not a modeler..so I really don't know everything involved...but if someone would point me in a direction and tell me what modeling programs you use I'll bang a few out myself....and send them to you.

Draw up a design im sure someone will be willing to try to model it. Fed designs are more cause its the fan base and easy. Some of us have created entire fleets and get no respect because its not canon theme.

Kreeargh,
Not entirily true I like the Non trek stuff and the work that others have done as I know exactly how much effort go into these things. I do apprieate the work poeple do and yes that includes you. I don't post as much in threads about releases anymore but tend to download the ships as they are released. if I knew how to steal them off other peoples PCs' I would not wait that long

I also have seen the abuse that has been put towards it, and had it handed to me a few times, so I know where you are coming from. So trust me when I say though I don't post in allot of threads any more, mostly Q&A stuff, I have always been a fan of anyone that is willing to put forth the effort to create and release a ship.

ShadowDiver · « **Reply #11 on:** December 08, 2010, 10:36:47 am »

what is canon themed?

Starfox1701 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2010, 12:51:38 pm »

It is a ship that closly matches up woth cannon designs of the time period the ship comes from. The Akula class is a good example

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2010, 12:58:02 pm »

Clarification on general terminology.
Canon = Official
Fanon (Fan+Canon) = A general consensus among fans that it is accepted (the Akula is indeed a good example).

Starforce2 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2010, 11:00:04 pm »

There are some cool designs out there for roms and klinks. Case in point, the stuff from armada, the sequel of which covers cardsassians. so, you've got reference material. All someone needs to do is make improvements. Achilies has remodeled the bases for armada roms and klinks. Still, over the years, awesome ships such as the shadow, shrike, griffen and raptor have never really seen truly good rebuilds. Re-textures of the converted models and 1 raptor from LC in the BC sector are about all we have to show for ourselves in the 10 years these ships have been in existence.

Good designs that people like exist and have been requested many times. Given how many times the connie has been redone and the amount of outcry for enemies to shoot at, it amounts to people either being too lazy or too busy trying to beat the other guys connie or galaxy class to actually put some of their talent and creativity into something that hasn't been done before. I know a lot of people just do this for fun, but just how much fun can it be redoing the same few ships over and over for years? I think the trend is finally leaning to that end, creating new stuff, but it's taken people so long to finally get the hint, many people who actually cared to see them have long since gone.

* Edited by FoaS. I got a headache reading this post due to bad punctuation. *

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #15 on:** December 09, 2010, 01:36:35 am »

Okay.... Here's where I walk a thin line between being a mod and being a designer.

Quote from: Starforce2 on December 08, 2010, 11:00:04 pm

There are some cool designs out there for roms and klinks. Case in point, the stuff from armada, the sequel of which covers cardsassians. so, you've got reference material. All someone needs to do is make improvements. Achilies has remodeled the bases for armada roms and klinks. Still, over the years, awesome ships such as the shadow, shrike, griffen and raptor have never really seen truly good rebuilds. Re-textures of the converted models and 1 raptor from LC in the BC sector are about all we have to show for ourselves in the 10 years these ships have been in existence.

Good designs that people like exist and have been requested many times. Given how many times the connie has been redone and the amount of outcry for enemies to shoot at, it amounts to people either being too lazy or too busy trying to beat the other guys connie or galaxy class to actually put some of their talent and creativity into something that hasn't been done before. I know a lot of people just do this for fun, but just how much fun can it be redoing the same few ships over and over for years? I think the trend is finally leaning to that end, creating new stuff, but it's taken people so long to finally get the hint, many people who actually cared to see them have long since gone.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions as the the nature and quality of character of many people here. "Too busy" is usually true. "Too Lazy" is really unfair. I think it really comes down to the fact that I'm not going to model something I don't want to. This is how I have fun, and I don't want someone else to dictate how I should have fun. Obviously, a lot of people enjoy remaking models - I know I had fun making my own connie: it's a challenge to one-up someone else.

I think your "hint" is petulant and dotty. I think that since you aren't a modeler, you don't really have the best legs to stand on with this. I think you mentioning that people are "finally leaning" towards "creating new stuff" minimizes efforts of people like Wicked Zombie, terradhyne, myself, Pepperman, atolm, Thu11s, Tus - all of us have barely touched canon, and many of us hardly touch federation anymore.

------

Anyways, back to the topic at hand:

I agree, mostly. I don't think there are too many federation ships, I just think there aren't enough non-federation ships ;-)

Modelling programs: I recommend getting your feet wet with Milkshape, like GAFY (I think) suggested. It's a bare-bones program that, if it does overwhelm you, won't overwhelm you for long. I actually skipped Milkshape and dove right into 3ds Max, and I had a wall of a learning curve because of it. Get you're head around Milkshape - get comfortable with things there. Be patient - you aren't going to be able to model out a space dragon on your first day. Figure it out in the way that best suits you. Keep us up to date - post a few WIP (Work in progress) shots on what you're doin' - even if you think they are crap. You'll get some pretty awesome feedback around here. Once you've gotten to a plateau, it'll be time to step up your work. We'll all do our best to show you how you can.

Tus-XC · « **Reply #16 on:** December 09, 2010, 02:22:24 am »

I think the main reason you don't see non fed designs is usually from the steep learning curve involved in them. Most non feddies have very organic and/or detail intensive designs. Feds, in comparison, are rather simplistic modeling wise in most cases with relatively simple textures - not to mention the ridiculous amount of source material available for feds. That means that for people just starting out they already can see what the fed is going to look like without having to do alot of research or puting much effort into it. You could call feds the gateway race for trek.

Most of all you have got to take into account the learning curve most people have w/ 3d modeling. There are those who are very artistically gifted and this type of stuff comes naturally, there are those who have had some schooling and thus have a foundation to work from. Most hobby modelers, like those who post here regularly, are all self taught and for most of us it has taken years for us to get to a point where we are capable modelers. Add onto that limited time and actual lives and you kinda see why there is a trend toward the easier designs when you get bit by the modeling bug

.

Now i don't know the best way to get started modeling. I didn't actually start modeling until almost a year after I had started mapping and texturing from Atolm. I would say there is no one route to take, and your best bet is to keep yourself from being discouraged. You will undoubtably have many failures when you first start out (my hd is littered with many started and unfinished models that dwarfs my 4 completed models) and that is expected whenever you try to create 3d on a 2d screen. If you want a good area to start from for modeling, learn how to build from primatives (spheres, cubes, cylinders, etc) using the different tool available as this will be the easiest way to get a grasp for modeling. Or you could just take my route and start by spline caging... i wouldn't recommend that route

. In any case you just gotta be bullheaded and not give up and eventually it does 'click' (and i'm not kidding on this, one day you'll go 'o sh*t' as everything just pops into place)

marstone · « **Reply #17 on:** December 09, 2010, 02:39:16 am »

My two cents. Have to agree Feds are a gateway race. My first model was a Fed Destroyer. A fitting thing as they are known as a popcycle and mind did suck. Let me know I am not a good mod maker (well need way more practice).

That said, this community makes some of the best trek stuff (all races). I don't like a lot of the feds (when said to be TOS or preTOS and they look TNG) but the work done is awesome.

ShadowDiver · « **Reply #18 on:** December 09, 2010, 10:21:08 am »

As always you guys are great !!

Thank you so much for the input...I have already downloaded GMax from (http://www.turbosquid.com/gmax)
but I will get right on that milkshake...
Also I was thinking of starting with this (http://www.siegenetwork.com/q?dir=Downloads&req=file&id=39) just practicing trying to make swords and shields and what not.....

So the basic model will contain...(very basic)
1. the wire frame..I guess this is what you are calling mapping?
2. fill to a solid..
3. add coloring/textures..?

If this is even close than I guess I have a good starting point......

once more thank you so much guy's....

ShadowDiver · « **Reply #19 on:** December 09, 2010, 10:43:01 am »

Oh...

And one more thing....
I know you guys are so busy.....

But could ya'll send me some links, photos or whatever of different stages of designs....sort of like you know...this is stage 1, stage 2, etc.etc.
nothing too complicated or that would take away from you real work...

I was thinking about what marstone said..

Quote from: marstone on December 09, 2010, 02:39:16 am

My two cents. Have to agree Feds are a gateway race. My first model was a Fed Destroyer. A fitting thing as they are known as a popcycle and mind did suck. Let me know I am not a good mod maker (well need way more practice).

maybe... I might like coloring better or just building the rough models like that guy looking for his Klingon base station..and have someone else color it?
you never know...right.

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #20 on:** December 09, 2010, 01:08:38 pm »

Take a look at this video. It gets into a little bit of theory and is a decent walkthrough on how things work. The tutorial is for 3ds Max, but the theory can be applied to pretty much anything
[youtube]A0TOLIBq8gM[/youtube]

pepperman · « **Reply #21 on:** December 09, 2010, 03:32:34 pm »

Here is a link to milkshape
http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/

If you go the Milkshape route be sure to get the plugins (SFC/Armada/BC/Others import and export with hardpoint/node editing by Chris Graham, Assimilation Software)
http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/ms3d/download.html

and a few tutorials
http://halflife2.filefront.com/file/Milkshape_3D_SPAS_12_Shotgun_Modelling_Tutorial;36160

http://www.webdesign.org/search.php?keywords=milkshape&category=

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=milkshape

hope these help

Kreeargh · « **Reply #22 on:** December 09, 2010, 10:56:54 pm »

Quote from: GotAFarmYet? on December 08, 2010, 04:35:19 am

Quote from: Kreeargh on December 07, 2010, 10:29:56 pm
Quote from: ShadowDiver on December 07, 2010, 06:34:32 am
This is not really a smart question, but I'll throw it out there anyway...

Why is there so many Frigging Federation ships! jeezee....

Every time I turn around New Fed designs are popping up...Can't anyone make new Hydran, Lyran or even Tholian ship designs? I mean of course you can....but why don't you?

And what is with the Gorns.....at first they were rounded hull designs, like the miniatures...and now there long rectangle shaped things.

Now I'm not a modeler..so I really don't know everything involved...but if someone would point me in a direction and tell me what modeling programs you use I'll bang a few out myself....and send them to you.

Draw up a design im sure someone will be willing to try to model it. Fed designs are more cause its the fan base and easy. Some of us have created entire fleets and get no respect because its not canon theme.

Kreeargh,
Not entirily true I like the Non trek stuff and the work that others have done as I know exactly how much effort go into these things. I do apprieate the work poeple do and yes that includes you. I don't post as much in threads about releases anymore but tend to download the ships as they are released. if I knew how to steal them off other peoples PCs' I would not wait that long

I also have seen the abuse that has been put towards it, and had it handed to me a few times, so I know where you are coming from. So trust me when I say though I don't post in allot of threads any more, mostly Q&A stuff, I have always been a fan of anyone that is willing to put forth the effort to create and release a ship.

"US being modelers in general" I was not talking about me. I model for fun and to help those in need not glory if so i would atleast be able to texture 1/2 arse

I know many freinds that get no glory and have quit because of simmler issues of lack of respect for their work. Some i know are learning and ask for comments and get balked at for it not being perfect work. One thing i know for a fact the net public is not newby freindly these days. Glory is the rule it looks like. Edit : If some think about it . How many new modelers have posted work and get little to no comments at sfc work alone?

marstone · « **Reply #23 on:** December 09, 2010, 11:26:36 pm »

I think to many people mistake dislike of a design as a lack of respect. I have quit commenting on art as it is to touchy a subject for many.

Way to many times those who ask for comments take criticism as a petsonal attack. If I hate a design that is all the design doesn't work for me. The modelling maybe done wonderfully. Thus as said, too many time I have seen a comment on a ship saying a person didn't like this or that and the modder read "you suck" which wasn't what was typed. Thus comments are getting harder to get.

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #24 on:** December 09, 2010, 11:37:51 pm »

Quote from: marstone on December 09, 2010, 11:26:36 pm

I think to many people mistake dislike of a design as a lack of respect. I have quit commenting on art as it is to touchy a subject for many.

Way to many times those who ask for comments take criticism as a petsonal attack. If I hate a design that is all the design doesn't work for me. The modelling maybe done wonderfully. Thus as said, too many time I have seen a comment on a ship saying a person didn't like this or that and the modder read "you suck" which wasn't what was typed. Thus comments are getting harder to get.

I think you are tactful enough to be able to dislike the design and still admire the workmanship, and convey that effectively... wierd that someone took umbrage... *shrug*

marstone · « **Reply #25 on:** December 10, 2010, 12:07:35 am »

Yeah I try and keep the art, the artist, and the artist skill separate. Take AToLM, I dislike probably 90% of his work. But dang, can he draw. I love his work because of the level of detail he does. We just have different eyes when looking at the subject matter.

I think it is because when you do "art" you pour yourself into the product. Some then take a rebuke of the end product as a rejection of themselves. They can't step back and see that everyone has different eyes for art (and that is what makes art so interesting).

ShadowDiver · « **Reply #26 on:** December 10, 2010, 01:11:57 am »

I'm just going to throw this stone out there in the lake....

Um...If modeling is considered a form of artwork...and the artist, be it a he or she is critical of other peoples work in that field, then how/why would they themselves misconstrue a comment about there art and take it personally..

I believe marstone is correct in his observation.

Quote from: marstone on December 09, 2010, 11:26:36 pm

I think to many people mistake dislike of a design as a lack of respect. I have quit commenting on art as it is to touchy a subject for many.

Way to many times those who ask for comments take criticism as a petsonal attack. If I hate a design that is all the design doesn't work for me. The modelling maybe done wonderfully. Thus as said, too many time I have seen a comment on a ship saying a person didn't like this or that and the modder read "you suck" which wasn't what was typed. Thus comments are getting harder to get.

IMHO.....I love Thomas Kincaid, I do not like the Mona Lisa, I love the Kirby Silver Surfer not the Moebius Silver Surfer...
We all see thing differently...nothings personal...

FoaS_XC · « **Reply #27 on:** December 10, 2010, 03:05:34 am »

Quote from: ShadowDiver on December 10, 2010, 01:11:57 am

Um...If modeling is considered a form of artwork...and the artist, be it a he or she is critical of other peoples work in that field, then how/why would they themselves misconstrue a comment about there art and take it personally..

I think that it is a bit more involved than this. I think it has to do with delivery. If I post a design that I worked hard on and someone posts "Wow, this sucks, go kill yourself", I'm going to be more than a little miffed. I'm not 'taking it personally' per say, but I'm still angry at the fact that they just spammed with inarticulate hate.

Now if I post the same design and someone posts "Hey, It doesn't really do anything for me. This is probably because the engine design looks tacked on, it doesn't really add to the shape." or even just an honest, but polite "Don't mean to be rude, but it doesn't get me excited." I'm not angry in either case. The first one gives some honest C&C, the second one is stating an opinion politely. I'm okay with people have opinions, and I'm okay with people sharing them. I'm NOT okay with people doing it rudely or unfairly.

Now, in the matter of the age-old "is modeling art?" question. I find the answer to be "sometimes". Art, to me, is the creation of a thing to evoke a response - be it intellectual or emotional. Most models, especially those you find on here, are more Design than they are Art. Design, to me, isn't about provoking a response, so much as they are a creation of an aesthetic. Now, granted, usually there is some overlap, and usually you need an element of design to hone-in on the reaction you want to provoke with your art. Furthermore, as art is very individualized, A good starship design can provoke an intellectual response from me - getting the gears turning as to what this would be like in-universe, rendering it art in my eyes.
Architecture is a good example of more-design-than-art, but a well written novel is more-art-than-design.

And of course, this is all just my thinking on the matter

.

ShadowDiver · « **Reply #28 on:** December 10, 2010, 07:22:46 am »

And as always...

You are correct and well spoken....
I on the other hand..knew what I was thinking but I could not put it into words as eloquently as you

Art is after all......a matter of opinion...be it emotional, visual, intellectual or physical....

You are wise beyond your years..

intermech · « **Reply #29 on:** December 11, 2010, 09:01:54 am »

For starting out modeling, I would recommend Milkhshape. It was the best $30 I ever spent in around 2001, now, almost 10 years later, I still use it exclusively.

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intermech

Topic: new ships? (Read 7358 times)