Topic: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1  (Read 111517 times)

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Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #160 on: January 17, 2011, 11:00:53 pm »
I didn't know they nixed the overloaded phasers in X ships.
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Offline ShadowDiver

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #161 on: January 18, 2011, 08:20:32 pm »
I  have to agree......when did they nix the overloaded phasers?

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #162 on: January 18, 2011, 08:25:22 pm »
I  have to agree......when did they nix the overloaded phasers?
In X1-R.  in the section called.. well..  "Changes to the Advanced Technology Rules since module X1 was published"


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Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #163 on: January 18, 2011, 08:48:19 pm »
I  have to agree......when did they nix the overloaded phasers?
In X1-R.  in the section called.. well..  "Changes to the Advanced Technology Rules since module X1 was published"

Ahh. (still don't have X1r, so that explains that)
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Offline ShadowDiver

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #164 on: January 19, 2011, 10:05:42 am »
uh...yep....

explanation well received..  :)

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #165 on: January 19, 2011, 12:37:22 pm »
I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but are you planning to include some of the weird ships like the LDR DFDD or the ISC CW? Ships like them are too good for their points, but it wasn't a fault of OP+ 4.0, it is just the fact that they were in SFB in the first place (like how the KHK has been in SFC since the beginning), and that SFC doesn't have a good way of limiting conjectural ships.

In a Dynaverse campaign, ships like that can be limited or erased from the shipyard, but from a Gamespy/skirmish perspective, there is nothing to keep players from flying those ships. For example, why use the regular Lyran CWLP or the ISC CLZ when better ships are just a couple points more? I wish I could think of a way to limit the cheese ships, but I can't think of anything that isn't used currently in Gamespy (like simply setting the BPV to avoid most of the cheesy ships). Is limiting cheese in a skirmish setting within the scope of 4.1?

Durn'd cheeze. ;)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 02:54:18 pm by Roychipoqua_Mace »

Offline FireSoul

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #166 on: January 19, 2011, 08:30:15 pm »
I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but are you planning to include some of the weird ships like the LDR DFDD or the ISC CW?

I-CW: yes. LDR? dunno. no. No room.

Quote
Ships like them are too good for their points, but it wasn't a fault of OP+ 4.0, it is just the fact that they were in SFB in the first place (like how the KHK has been in SFC since the beginning), and that SFC doesn't have a good way of limiting conjectural ships.

The players should agree to limit themselves when they play. I should not take away their fun from them.

Quote
In a Dynaverse campaign, ships like that can be limited or erased from the shipyard, but from a Gamespy/skirmish perspective, there is nothing to keep players from flying those ships. For example, why use the regular Lyran CWLP or the ISC CLZ when better ships are just a couple points more? I wish I could think of a way to limit the cheese ships, but I can't think of anything that isn't used currently in Gamespy (like simply setting the BPV to avoid most of the cheesy ships). Is limiting cheese in a skirmish setting within the scope of 4.1?

Not for standard multiplayer, no.

Quote
Durn'd cheeze. ;)

Yup.


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Offline Age

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #167 on: January 21, 2011, 12:40:09 pm »
No....

Every other weapon that I have found has an X counter part........in some form or another whether it is actually called an X or Heavy weapon.....even plasmas got upgraded.....but not EGS's, Hellbores or Fusion's......that in and of itself unbalances the game when playing Hydran or Lyran against any other race....even the fracking ISC gets to benefit from the X refits...like the PPD's are not bad enough...

Is that from a SFC or SFB perspective, because G2s are so cheese.

Ok. Stop it right there!
The Ph-G2, the PLaE, PLaX, The "Heavy" phasers and "Heavy" Photons and "Heavy" Disruptors were all Taldren inventions, inaccurate SFB-wise and way overpowered. (especially the Ph-G2)

The PhX is.. close to the truth, but even it isn't right now-a-days: they removed the Overloading (1.5X damage) but kept something SFC doesn't have: the pulse.
ie: a Ph-1X can pulse as 2 Ph3s defensively.

.. and that's just the beginning. There's more.
I do use heavy photons with ph. type 1s in modded shiplist but never or hardly use overloads.

Offline FireSoul

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #168 on: February 03, 2011, 12:34:57 pm »
Quick update: slow but steady. I kitbashed a few models to meet some SSD needs. and it looks like I have a few more to do. This annoys me because meshing and kitbashing takes forever.

In other news, I completed the Feds in R12.. I'm in the process of entering Klingon ships. I only do a couple of ship entries a night: (~30 minutes).


The biggest problem I'm facing is my own determination. I've been working on this for over 6 months. I want to do other things. ;> I've got Civ5 staring at me on my desktop, and soon my copy of Dragon Age 2 will arrive! .. I suppose it's ok if I take long long breaks from this, right? :)

-- FS

PS..
Dizzy: I still don't have your fixed planet meshes, or a proper description on how to fix it.


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Offline Keravnos

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #169 on: February 03, 2011, 04:38:49 pm »
I have to say that I admire your work.
Everyone has a point that they say "Enough". "No more".
I know I have said it many times myself.
Still, I do think that everyone on this here little planet we call Earth, the most important one in the universe so far as we can tell (feel free to insert any pun or joke you want here, star trek or other), everyone has his niche, everyone can do some things better than anyone else. Not sure how or why this is, still, it's the truth. We 're all here for a little time and we don't know when that time is up. Therefore, however much you want to go play Civ 5, please take some time to finish your job with the OP+ 4.1

SFC II in its latest form is the single best game in which naval tactics and the evolution of technologies of the spaceships of many different races. Besides, if SFC 4 ever takes flight, they 'd be fools not to use your work as a foundation for their game.

SFC II is a great game. Easy to get into, but quite difficult to master. With your shiplist, and the various bugfixes over so many years, it has reached its limits and did everything that it was designed for and even more.

Why is your shiplist important? The obvious reason I can think of is that with the final patch and your shiplist installed, SFC II has amazing potential as a training platform not just for multiplayer scenario, its most amazing potential for me lies in what AI programmers can do with it. There are so many levels that this game can be imporved upon (AI wise) and so many ways that the job done already can be used (one of the things I 'd do with it, if I had the time, money or expertise) is to try to make a layer of strategy superimposing on the tactical ship fighting game we' ve all grown to play and love, with enough AI variations thrown in and with Fleet admiral AI's (leading the fleet) commanding Commodore AI's (leading flottilas), who 'd command Captain AI's into fighting under pre-programmed doctrines. The player would get to make the grand strategy decisions (what to build and distribute enough hulls at different fleets) and just point and click where the fleet should go. The Fleet admiral AI would take it from there.

Gotta admit, I love SFC ever since I first played it. You have been the guiding force for its continuing development for many years now. Just finish the job, if you can, so that it will be ready for anyone who might use what you have created to start using this game as both an experiment into AI development that can be useful for programming students as well as trying to make that layer that will control this.

Other than harpoon and the other games like it, there is quite nothing like SFC in terms of complexity, yet instant accessibility, that could hone tactics possibly useful elsewhere. I am pretty sure naval cadetts will enjoy this game, once they get to know it, much like many of those who actually did play SFB over the years were actual sailors, who played SFB during the little time that they had off duty. It takes a connoisseur to appreciate a game of this caliber and I am sure that many will. If only they get to know it.

Why is SFC important? Well, I have seen some games over in bluesnews where some friends projected a home brew piece of ... software on screen. They roleplayed, got to yell "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead" and all that, and that 'd be fine, if it wasn't all just so fake, it was just a waste of time. They were just there to make a positive statement, speak up for tolerance, being PC, and whatever else their agenda might have been. THEY JUST DIDN'T GET IT. IT WASN'T A WARSHIP CREW THEY WERE TRYING TO ROLEPLAY, EVEN A FICTIONAL ONE EXISTING ONLY ON MOVIES, IT WAS LOVEBOAT. Don't get me wrong, their intentions were good, no doubt, still, they had no idea of ECM, ECCM, missile warfare, anti missiles, fighter/bomber launch, their recovery, CL, CA, DD, DN and every other piece of the alphabet soup that everyone of the, cadett, junior, active or retired navy personel would recognize and love just like they did in SFB. Because it does take one to know one. Because I, having played A LOT of sci fi in all its iterations (Proud owner of the original SFC and OP, saddly missed out on SFCII) not many others out there, if none can actually make a player feel that he 's in charge of a starship, albeit a completely fictional one, no doubt. I don't know how many kids went to navy because of SFC, I do believe they were many, however.

I know that what I say will automatically trigger the Get a life response
William Shatner SNL skit Get A Life 1986-12-20
still, that's fine. You know that there's some actual tactics in SFC, I know it, so do those who care enough to try to find out. I do believe that there's a lot that can be done with this.

I always liked games that let me know something more or actually understand a concept without a need for that concept to be explained. There are some games out there that once you have played and understood them, you just know. For example, once you play a total war game, you can understand what hammer and anvil strategy consists of, why the horse archers were so dangerous and then, after asking the right questions, understand a lot more about how and why Rome got to be where it did. I think that 's the reason why I got into modding myself. To try to make others understand by playing something that took me literally years of book reading and I still didn't get it.

In the end, a good computer game for me is one that allows a child to be taught, giving direction and drive to his natural curiosity. For example, one of the posts of the Taldren forum that I remember, spoke of a PC gamer, like us, who had his young nephews play alongside him SFC. Once he got down to explain the basics, they picked them up and in literally minutes were into it, having fun, no doubt. At the same time, however, they learnt, without even knowing that they did, all the concepts mentioned earlier, about ECM, ECCM, missile warfare, antimissile warfare, etc.

Think, then, how much easier it would be for those kids, who have acquired a grasp of the basics of naval warfare (even if a sci fi, completely fictional setting) to play harpoon (now that Harpoon's developpers have graciously allowed for a fully functional demo that will last months instead of days). Then, with careful guiding, they 'd learn how to lead a fleet, in a few hours. Since kids minds are much more able to retain information, than us supposedly grown ups, a career in the navy, or the merchant marine, won't sound like such a bad thing, after all. (If only someone told me, when I was 18, what kind of career I could have if I'd went into the armed forces or the merchant marine capt. school, I'd be very thankful now.)

Recruting tool, you 'd ask? It could be used like that, I suppose, still, I'd rather use the term "Appreciation" instead. They 'd learn how to operate alongside eachother, chain of command, in the best way possible, being part of a crew that will have them, under the stern guidance of their captain, learning and understanding exactly what the stations of a naval vessel are, weapons, etc. When I was young, all we had were toy planes and ships, nowadays, for those kids that are lucky enough, they can get to drive a ship, albeit fictional through their computer screens, using the ship simulators that are out there. SFC, through a fictional setting, can be a route to that, a way to let them get the basics, while having fun at the same time.

You see, The army, Marines and Air Force have it easy in this regard. They have first person shooters, very realistic ones at that, Air Force has simulators from the WWI up to present day, however the navy has, well, I don't know, what, harpoon? If that is the case, harpoon is very hard to get into and not many kids will have the attention span to actually want to play it. SFC can help there, I think, making some basic concepts easily accesible. Then they can play harpoon and actually understand and appreciate it as well. Then, who knows, maybe they 'll have a career in the navy, somewhere down the line and be thankful they got to understand what they did, when they did and in the way that they did.

Before getting off my wooden box and allowing you to keep my .02 cents, do it for us, the old geezers, who have enjoyed SFC so much, they got to lose potential girlfriends over it. (Nope, not telling who that schmuck was).

Your job is appreciated, in ways I can't even begin to express. You have earned the unwavering respect of everyone who has played SFC, liked it and then googled "SFC II Orion Pirates" even once to see what was going on. There is nothing you need to prove now. Please, try to find the energy and effort to finish this, because it IS very important.

Offline FireSoul

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #170 on: February 03, 2011, 11:20:35 pm »
wow.. that was.. wow.

.. Ok. I wanna hear more about the lost potential.. !


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Offline Astarte

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #171 on: February 03, 2011, 11:26:13 pm »
Oh..he'll get back into it I'm sure...just taking breaks before the burn out sets in.

Also..I am a selfish wife.  I want to spend time with my husband some nights.  *winks*

Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #172 on: February 03, 2011, 11:36:16 pm »
Now THAT was cool, Keravnos
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Offline FireSoul

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #173 on: February 03, 2011, 11:53:04 pm »
I am speechless. I can't really respond to that properly..

.. except to start up the VM and try to get a couple of those F6 variants done.


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Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #174 on: February 03, 2011, 11:55:00 pm »
I am speechless. I can't really respond to that properly..

.. except to start up the VM and try to get a couple of those F6 variants done.


Seriously, let me know how I can help :)
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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #175 on: February 04, 2011, 12:18:50 am »
I am speechless. I can't really respond to that properly..

.. except to start up the VM and try to get a couple of those F6 variants done.



Seriously, let me know how I can help :)


Got R12? I got a list of ships to cover..
http://pet.dhs.org/mediawiki/index.php/Implementing_Module_R12


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Offline Keravnos

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #176 on: February 04, 2011, 02:06:04 am »
wow.. that was.. wow.

.. Ok. I wanna hear more about the lost potential.. !

No, you don't. It 's been so long, still it bugs me like you wouldn't believe.
Still trying to come to grips with it. Still I know now what NOT to do, next time around.

Really appreciative for holding the fort, or should I say, the helm. SFC (OP+ was the final installment of SFB, SFC3, well, no thanks)
was one of those games that are really worth the time invested in them, even if, at times it almost feels like a job, like actually running the ship.

Offline Czar Mohab

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #177 on: February 04, 2011, 03:04:54 am »
You see, The army, Marines and Air Force have it easy in this regard. They have first person shooters, very realistic ones at that, Air Force has simulators from the WWI up to present day, however the navy has, well, I don't know, what, harpoon? If that is the case, harpoon is very hard to get into and not many kids will have the attention span to actually want to play it. ...


688(I) Hunter/Killer in 1997 and later Sub Command around 2001. Also available around the same time period was Jane's Fleet Command. Never really got into that one for some reason. Being a proud Bubble Head, I am a firm believer that what floats above water is merely another target for what lies beneath; and there is nothing that a sub and her motivated crew can't do, such as the only ground combat operation on the Japanese homeland during WWII, sinking the largest vessel ever sunk by submarine and, for a more modern twist, putting "warheads on foreheads". Guess with all that awesome power, I never felt the need for fleets.

In 688(I) Hunter/Killer you play out a series of campaigns from the point of view of a commanding officer of one of the US Navy's Los Angeles (Improved) class submarines. Every aspect of acquiring, tracking, and eventually killing (or not, sometimes there were friendlies you had to distinguish between) contacts was surprisingly accurate. Considering I wasn't on a 688 or 688(I), it was still very easily carried over to a 726 class sub. As for ship's operating speeds and/or depths, I simply do not know how accurate those are/were, as I was stationed on a different class entirely.

Sub Command added an Akula attack sub and a Seawolf class to the base 688(I) game, with missions specific to those vessels. While the basics carried over to the two new classes, it was still a learning curve to adjust to the Akula; the Seawolf was a breeze to figure out.

Sure, they are video games, but when the time came for me to step up to the plate and assist in tracking targets, real or simulated, I had more experience in what was going on than the average Joe. So your point is quite valid.

Let me put it another way: Based on experience from the game, having the ability to correct the OOD's (Officer Of the Deck, in this particular case, the Weapons Officer) orders and be able to recommend the proper course of action, and be 100% correct = priceless. Having him disregard the recommendation, miss the shot and then be told at the simulation debrief "You should have listened to him..." = more priceless.

So, to get back on track, finish enhancing our futuristic space navy sim at your own pace, we'll be patient. Maybe, just maybe, the future of whatever real life Starfleet we earthers come up with will have been trained from it. Or not; we'll have fun with it either way.

P.S. Rumor of the time was that 688(I) was used as a training tool by the Navy for submariners. Never could find out if it was true or not.
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Offline Klingon Fanatic

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #178 on: February 25, 2011, 08:50:28 pm »
Update please...
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Offline FireSoul

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Re: FYI: work in progress: OP+ 4.1
« Reply #179 on: February 25, 2011, 08:55:23 pm »
Update please...


For day-to-day updates see:
http://pet.dhs.org/mediawiki/index.php/OPPLus_Project_Blog

Note: I certainly don't work on this every day. I have a full time job with increasing responsibilities. I have a family, and I've decided that instead of getting sick of working on SFC stuff that I'd play other things in the mean time if I felt like it. ;>

-- FS


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