Topic: Wasps (the insect)

[Bonk]

More to them than you think... simple eyes. I had no idea they have this in addition to compound eyes. If insects ever develop "lungs" we are doomed.

Stinger = ovipositor. Squirm.

Haploid male genetics. WTF?

Amazing creatures.

[Nemesis]

If insects ever develop "lungs" we are doomed.

Add an endoskeleton before I worry too much. 

[Bonk]

How so? I always thought it was the physical means of respiration of insects that limited their size, the design can only support small volumes of tissue.

Is the exoskeleton a factor in the size limits on insects? I've seen some pretty big lobsters. Or are you just thinking overall robustness?

[knightstorm]

I know that during the carboniferous you had fairly large land arthropods.

[Bonk]

I can see them getting big with gills (lobsters, ancient sea scorpions), but with spiracles? Perhaps they had a different or modified respiratory system.

P.S. has me thinking of Big Bertha on Sanctuary... anybody watching that?

[knightstorm]

There was a higher percentage of atmospheric oxygen so the giant insects were able to get by on a less efficient respiratory system.

[Nemesis]

How so? I always thought it was the physical means of respiration of insects that limited their size, the design can only support small volumes of tissue.

Is the exoskeleton a factor in the size limits on insects? I've seen some pretty big lobsters. Or are you just thinking overall robustness?

Consider the weight of an exoskeleton for a human sized insect compared to an endoskeleton.     How thick is it for the amount of internal volume?

Also growth becomes an issue.  When to see an elephant sized crab shedding its shell?  How does it support itself while the new shell expands and hardens? 

[Bonk]

Molting... good point, I had forgotten about that. There's the limit right there, unless a complex social structure as exists in some insect species could cope with it. (akin to care of queen, pupae and parasite removal...)

(p.s. ... do we really want me to study proteomics? We can start to answer these kinds of questions by instrumental analysis pretty darn soon... *cue ominous music*)

[knightstorm]

How so? I always thought it was the physical means of respiration of insects that limited their size, the design can only support small volumes of tissue.

Is the exoskeleton a factor in the size limits on insects? I've seen some pretty big lobsters. Or are you just thinking overall robustness?

Consider the weight of an exoskeleton for a human sized insect compared to an endoskeleton.     How thick is it for the amount of internal volume?

Also growth becomes an issue.  When to see an elephant sized crab shedding its shell?  How does it support itself while the new shell expands and hardens?

Maybe, but during the carboniferous you did have 30 inch dragon flies and 2 meter long millipedes.  I'd still hate to run into insects that size.

[Bonk]

30" dragon flies would sound awesome! I'd love to see something like that.

They'd sound something like this perhaps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geqip_0Vjec

edit: Nah, come to think of it they'd probably sound more like a pair of crows glued together...

The convergence of biomimetics, gmo technology and instrumental analysis makes me see visions of new Jurassic Park movies... only these will be on youtube, in somebody's lab... Muahahah! (not really, but a fun SF idea...)

[Nemesis]

According to some of my reading the pressure on a exoskeletons joints compared to its body weight is far higher than those with endoskeletons.  Which might explain why exoskeletal creatures tend to have 6 and 8 legs. 

[Bonk]

Very interesting, counterintuitive, but I can see it.

Huge numbers of wasps this year. They are everywhere. One was sitting on my shoulder on the bus yesterday. Seriously, just sitting there looking at me. I left him there.

Something is up with the wasps this year. I have never seen this. I wonder if there are more because there are fewer bees?

[knightstorm]

A spider the size of a human head takes on a lizard.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdVF9tU9Bbs[/youtube]

[Nemesis]

The beginning of an endoskeleton?

Link to full article

Biologists have re-shaped the body design of snails. Exposure to platinum results in the formation of an internal shell instead of the normal external shell. During embryogenesis of the freshwater snail, Marisa cornuarietis, a time slot of just one or two days determines whether the animals form an outer shell or not. Reprogramming of the direction of growth of the molluscs´ shell-generating tissue during this sensitive phase prevents the development of the usual convoluted shell. In lieu thereof a small hollow cone grows inside the body -- similar to whats happens in squids.

Now in this case it is not a genetic change but an outside interference with the genes operation.  What if a species had an environmental change that caused a gene to become "inactive".  That gene could mutate into other non functional forms as there is nothing conserving its function.  When the environment changed again (or the species moved into a new environment) then those without mutation of the critical gene would reproduce the original form.  Those with a non functioning mutation would produce the new form. 

A new way to evolve?  It could also be a way for a new species to show up in the fossil record and an old one to return from extinction. 

[Bonk]

Oh man. Developmental biology freaks me. I expect it is not the platinum that is doing it exactly, but rather it's effects on existing "protein message gradients". (I don't know the proper term, nor do I know for sure that is what is happening, but I am sure I could prove it either way)

The trick with this stuff is to figure out exactly how all the "signalling gradients" work. This and the zero-g work is a good start. We have such a long way to go.

Why am I thinking of Starship Troopers?    (strictly rhetorical)

[marstone]

Ah, just did a mass murder on a nest of wasps inside my enclosed front steps/porch. Bug bombed the litle buggers.

[Bonk]

Check these critters out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_crab

Wild.

[Sirgod]

LOL, if a woman gives you that kind of crab, your gonna know it!

Stephen

[Bonk]

Hey marstone, maybe you can get one of these for next year!

http://www.plasticpals.com/?p=25243

Such wonderful overkill. He must be the Japanese Red Green.

[marstone]

Hey marstone, maybe you can get one of these for next year!

http://www.plasticpals.com/?p=25243

Such wonderful overkill. He must be the Japanese Red Green.

First seen this on my Phone so the link didn't work there.  Just looking at the name of the sight made me wonder, hmmm, plastic pals.  As for needing the Robot, naw, I do my own stunts.  Did most of the spraying at the entrance of the nest from two feet or so away.

But as Red Green would say, If women don't find you handsome, they can at least find you handy.

[knightstorm]

I'd want robots to do my dirty work too if I had to worry about things like these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fTrSOFyfxs

[Bonk]

I'd want robots to do my dirty work too if I had to worry about things like these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fTrSOFyfxs

Holy crap! 5x the size of a honey bee? Wow. Incredible camera work there, National Geographic is so awesome, and nature is so cold and hard. Thanks for sharing that clip!

[marstone]

ah but remember.  Starter fluid still melts the exoskeleton even on those big guys. 

[knightstorm]

nature is so cold and hard.

Well, to be fair, those are imported European honey bees with no natural defenses against the Japanese Hornets.  The native Japanese honeybees evolved along side the hornets, and have developed an amazing means of defending themselves, so they fare much better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5QxUR-mZVM

ah but remember.  Starter fluid still melts the exoskeleton even on those big guys. 

You get close enough to spray them...  I'll just wait right here.

[Nemesis]

If insects ever develop "lungs" we are doomed.

It appears that they need more than just lungs.

Link to full article

First, a bit of background: Insects don't breathe like we do and don't use blood to transport oxygen. They take in oxygen and expel carbon dioxide through holes in their bodies called spiracles. These holes connect to branching and interconnecting tubes, called tracheae, Kaiser explained.

Whereas humans have one trachea, insects have a whole tracheal system that transports oxygen to all areas of their bodies and removes carbon dioxide. As the insect grows, tracheal tubes get longer to reach central tissue, and get wider or more numerous to meet the additional oxygen demands of a larger body.

Apparently one of the things limiting the size of insects is that the legs have these tracheae passing through them from the body, make the insect bigger and there isn't room for the tracheae to take oxygen to the legs through the joints. 

So for giant insects you need them to evolve both lungs and transferring oxygen through the blood stream (assuming they have a bloodstream, I don't know, if not they would have to evolve that or an equivalent too). 

[marstone]

yes, the limit seems to be how long the tubes can be to carry anough oxygen into the center of the insect.  It gets to a point that the tubes can not be wide anough to carry the level of oxygen needed.

[Bonk]

Yes, that is exactly what I was referring to from the start. Though not expressed well.

That coconut crab lives on the edge...

[Nemesis]

But it is more than just lungs (which could evolve from the tracheae) but a circulatory system to carry the oxygen.  I don't know much about insect anatomy so I don't know what they have that might be adapted (they must have something to carry nutrients around).  A larger insect could evolve tracheae in its legs bypassing the joint issue and at least allowing larger ones. 

None of this gets around the problems of the exoskeleton.

[Bonk]

There was a higher percentage of atmospheric oxygen so the giant insects were able to get by on a less efficient respiratory system.

Check it out:

http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2010AM/finalprogram/abstract_181665.htm

I understand they produced dragonflies with a 70cm wingspan!  (no luck with the cockroaches oddly though - perhaps not so odd, they are already a near perfect machine)

... not sure if the image attached to the story is genuine ...