Topic: Fed strategies needed

[FPF-DieHard]

Wow -  I can't believe that epic CB v NHK thread is 5 years old.  The tactics discussed in that are still valid.

Yeah, that nice thread is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for (much easier and more valid/playtested to compile tips from the success of past pilots than try to write something completely new). Do you know if there is a similar thread for Feds vs. other races, especially Klinks? Maybe lurking on the SFB legacy board might turn some things up . . .

The SFC2.net Fed forums will have stuff.  Keep in mind, there is TONS of trash talk there as it was a private board.   None of the film links I posted will work though as my web server's been out of action for years.

CB versus D7W/DWL isn't nearly as close of a contest as the NHK, advantage definitely goes to the the Fed in this one.  Same with the CC+/D7L.  The fed strategy is to get to range 8.9 and roll a lot of 1s with overloaded torps, the Klink's is to not let this happen.  After a few years developing tactics I stopped straight-up castling as it was just plain boring.  Below was my 'text book approach that almost always worked.

Assuming a year of 2275ish, any later these ships start to get long int he tooth and the same tactics more or less work for the CC+/D7L fights, I'd got between speed 8-12 slowly making my way towards the kilnk.   The Klink would be going faster, not holding tring to get the range 9-15 shot, I'd let them but i'd control what shield they hit.   After they fired I'd turn towards them and dump all my phasers on their rear shield and about range 15, and turn away.  the klink would then got a shot at my rear shields which would regen fast than his, I'd turn back in and do the same.   Phasers at 15 on his butt.  Two to three passes and the Klink's rear would be down.

With a downed rear-shield his maneuvering options are more limited and you WILL be able get a, 8.9 photon shot off unless he's going speed 31 and going full defensive.  The Klink not pressing the attack works in your favor as your shields come back quicker.  Once you fire overloads at him, 2-3 will hit at range 8.9 which will crack a shield and cause internals, follo up with your phasers.   Turn away and let him beat on you a little bit, you're tough and can take a hit.  If he presses too hard, T-bombs are your friend especially on hit recently downed shield.  Eventually you'll be able to load photons again, HET into him and blow him to bits point blank.

Now different ships will require different tactics.   The above will NOT working an CLC/D5L battle.

Silly question, do people still play this game on GSA?

[FPF-DieHard]

Do you know if there is a similar thread for Feds vs. other races, especially Klinks?

Best advice for the Feddies facing a Klingon - Surrender.

Oh please, this game is too old for racial-trash talk.  In 1v1 fights the Klingons have and advantage in very few class per class match-ups.   CWLs and BCHs give the Kilnks a small advantage, and that's debatable. 

[FPF-DieHard]

The F-CB has a worse power curve than the F-CA.  Surprised?  The  F-CB gains 4 point of power true.  It also gains 4 PhI and 2 PhIII which between them use 5 point of power.  So when charging all weapons it is SLOWER than the F-CA.

I just read this - this is rubbish.  You can turn the cap-slider down to have plenty of power to charge weapons while moving.

[knightstorm]

Do you know if there is a similar thread for Feds vs. other races, especially Klinks?

Best advice for the Feddies facing a Klingon - Surrender.

Oh please, this game is too old for racial-trash talk.

When the game gets too old for that type of trash talk, its not worth playing anymore.  Besides, I don't think Nem is going to find a real fed that's willing to surrender to those smelly savages.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Thanks DH, that's a lot of help. I don't play on GSA as much anymore because I have to wake up earlier, but I'm going to give it a shot tonight and tomorrow. Last I heard, there were tourneys, but I haven't seen any new ones on the Gamespy Wizard calendar.

P.S. if you Feds don't want to surrender, you can always just fire proxies at range 31 and just sit there for the next two turns like the AI (and the AI's been playing for 11 years . . . it must know what it's doing).

[Nemesis]

The F-CB has a worse power curve than the F-CA.  Surprised?  The  F-CB gains 4 point of power true.  It also gains 4 PhI and 2 PhIII which between them use 5 point of power.  So when charging all weapons it is SLOWER than the F-CA.

I just read this - this is rubbish.  You can turn the cap-slider down to have plenty of power to charge weapons while moving.

By turning down the slider you reduce the fire rate of your Phasers, you can't fire all of them every turn, only some of them.  If arming ALL weapons at full rate the F-CB has less power for movement than the F-CA, that is a fact. 

[Nemesis]

Besides, I don't think Nem is going to find a real fed that's willing to surrender to those smelly savages.

Those "smelly savages" are the "Klingons" of TNG, a totally different breed, culture and attitude from the TOS Klingons and behind SFC is SFB which was based on TOS. 

Could you imagine Kor, Kang or even Koloth act like the TNG Klingons?  The TNG Klingons act more like Kzinti than Klingons. 

The TOS Klingons are disciplined, rational and do what they must to win.  The TNG Boneheads constantly break discipline out of rage or "Honour". 

[knightstorm]

Besides, I don't think Nem is going to find a real fed that's willing to surrender to those smelly savages.

Those "smelly savages" are the "Klingons" of TNG, a totally different breed, culture and attitude from the TOS Klingons and behind SFC is SFB which was based on TOS. 

Could you imagine Kor, Kang or even Koloth act like the TNG Klingons?  The TNG Klingons act more like Kzinti than Klingons. 

The TOS Klingons are disciplined, rational and do what they must to win.  The TNG Boneheads constantly break discipline out of rage or "Honour".

Klingons had a reputation for having an unpleasant odor in TOS.  Or did you forget where Chekov commented that the Enterprise would pass close enough to Klingon space to smell them.  Also, regarding Klingon honor as depicted in TNG, DS9 makes it clear that it only applies fully to other Klingons, and that the honor that is inherent with victory in foreign wars means that Klingons are more than willing to engage in underhanded tactics to win.  Furthermore, Enterprise demonstrated that Klingons are also ruthless in their treatment of conquered subject races, something which is consistent with Kor's actions on Organia.

As for imagining Kor, Kang, and Koloth as TNG Klingons,

[Nemesis]

Klingons had a reputation for having an unpleasant odor in TOS.  Or did you forget where Chekov commented that the Enterprise would pass close enough to Klingon space to smell them. 

Chekov as you recall was quite bigoted.  Everything was invented in Russia or at least improved there.  His "smell them" comment has been used to refer to other human races as well but we wouldn't take that to mean those humans really do have an unpleasant odour now would we?  It really was just a classic way to insult an enemy.  He didn't seem to find Kangs wife unpleasant smelling when he tried to rape her did he?

Also, regarding Klingon honor as depicted in TNG, DS9 makes it clear that it only applies fully to other Klingons, and that the honor that is inherent with victory in foreign wars means that Klingons are more than willing to engage in underhanded tactics to win.  Furthermore, Enterprise demonstrated that Klingons are also ruthless in their treatment of conquered subject races, something which is consistent with Kor's actions on Organia.

I have seen VERY little DS9 and can't comment on it. 

Over and over in TNG we see Klingons complaining of Starfleet officers impugning their honour (Worf especially).  Could you imagine Worf trying to act like the Klingon infiltrator on Space Station K7 or would he complain about it being dishonourable? 

I never claimed that either TOS or TNG Klingons were not ruthless in war.  I also never claimed they were not capable of being underhanded. 

Note:  I consider Enterprise to be a different timeline for reasons stated here

As for imagining Kor, Kang, and Koloth as TNG Klingons,

Haven't seen the episode but I very much doubt that the characters resembled the originals in any way beyond their names.  How do they act?  Like the ORIGINALS or like TNG boneheads?  I'm betting on boneheads. 

[knightstorm]

Chekov's attack on Mara had to do with the fact that he was not in his right mind, and had less to do with attraction, and more to do with the rage that the entity was filling him with.  Also, at one point during DS9, hostilities resume with the Klingons, and Worf ends up performing a few infiltration missions.

As for imagining Kor, Kang, and Koloth as TNG Klingons,

Haven't seen the episode but I very much doubt that the characters resembled the originals in any way beyond their names.  How do they act?  Like the ORIGINALS or like TNG boneheads?  I'm betting on boneheads.

Well, they're played by the original actors.  Although Kang's characterization is the closest to his original appearance.  The differences with the others can be explained by the fact that the episode is taking place a century after their earlier appearances, and they have changed.  The years were not kind to Kor, and by the time this takes place, he is a drunken shell of his former self.  Koloth is much more serious than he was in his previous appearance, although during the final battle, he quips to Kor that "I will not die before your thunderous bulk."  In the episode, they are fulfilling a blood oath to kill the albino, an old foe who murdered their first born sons.  Kor was the only one to survive the episode, and would make two more appearances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILtk-Zoj8sw

[Father Ted]

I'll make a section on photon cycling then (along with tips on turning off all or half of the tubes and other power management). In the case of firing one torpedo or bank at a time, does the Fed try to maintain a safe distance from the Klink? Like Knight said, if the Fed has only half of its photons held and the phasers are probably recharging, I can see the Klingon closing in with overloads and phasers and getting a pretty good damage tradeoff with the Fed. Maybe photon cycling is something that should be used against only Klingons.

The cycling as I described it is intended for situations where you need a certain minimum impact.  Lets say for example you need to hit 3 of 4 to be useful, if the first 2 miss then there is no point in firing the next 2 in that case.  It can also be used for the Mizia effect if the shield is down or is taken down by the first shot.

Part of the goal for the Fed is to fire AFTER the Klingon and at a closer range.  That way the Klingon is hurt worse and at most gets one shot with the disruptors before the photons reload and he needs to be away.

Speaking of TNG Klingons (if you mean the idea of closing in and flying aggressively), how well does that work in SFB/SFC?

I don't like TNG Klingons so I'm rather the wrong one to ask that.  Though I have done aggressive attacks when the circumstances favoured it.

In the Klingon - Fed battle the ideal for the Klingon is that the Fed fires early at a less than optimum range and thus opens up a window for the Klingon to get in close and knife fight.  Lets say for example the Fed thinks you are just ducking in to range 8 then pulling out before he can get his overloads off and he fires first.  The Klingon then can close in to range 0 if he wants as the Fed has nothing to stop him.   The Klingon then can fire all his phasers and disruptors at close and heavily damaging range not once but twice before the Feds photons cycle and the Fed will have to use some of his phasers to stop the drones increasing the temporarty armament disparity.

This ideal battle is why the Fed needs to hold photons in reserve to induce the Klingon to either maintain range while the Fed waits for a mistake to take advantage of of to punish the Klingon who thinks it an opening to close in for.  If you think the Klingon is going to close when the first two photons are fired, overloading the 2nd pair is a good option especially if they are just being held and were armed earlier. 

The sabre dance evolved not just to attack the Feds but to DEFEND the Klingon.  The disruptor is better at those intermediate ranges than the photons and the reverse is true at close ranges.  The Photon therefore functions as a "stand off" weapon when the two fight.  However the Klingons can fight effectively though slowly at that range and when the Photons have been fired the Klingons come in to "play" before they can rearm.  The large Phaser suite allows a very effective Mizia attack sequence.

You just made the fatal mistake: you're expecting the Federale to play by your rules. If I'm flying against you, I'll stand off the ECM/ECCM and wait for you to get in range for my OL photons. I keep the phasers on standby for the drones you'll throw at me from your ship and SP, then circle around and let my photons reload. You have to remember that except for a very few, like Kreug and Saxon, most Klinks are droners. They don't know how to survive a knife fight with a Fed or Hydran.

[Nemesis]

You just made the fatal mistake: you're expecting the Federale to play by your rules. If I'm flying against you, I'll stand off the ECM/ECCM and wait for you to get in range for my OL photons. I keep the phasers on standby for the drones you'll throw at me from your ship and SP, then circle around and let my photons reload.

If you read my original post a little more carefully you will see that I am listing goals for both sides and errors that allow your opponent to achieve those goals.  Each race/ship has its advantages and disadvantages. My post shows some of those for each side and some tactics to use your advantage against the opponents disadvantage.

You have to remember that except for a very few, like Kreug and Saxon, most Klinks are droners. They don't know how to survive a knife fight with a Fed or Hydran.

And me.  I prefer the non specialty ships.  Line and command variants F5, D6 and D7 hulls.  If I was a droner I'd fly Mirak.

[Father Ted]

And me.  I prefer the non specialty ships.  Line and command variants F5, D6 and D7 hulls.  If I was a droner I'd fly Mirak.

I prefer non-droners myself. My usual Fed campaign starts with a FFG, (no matter what J'inn tells you, avoid the Fed DD like the plague)then a CC+, followed by either a BCG(I'll come back to this one), a BCV or a CVA+. Depending on the length of the campaign, sometimes I'll trade in the CC+ for a CLC. The CLC is fun to fly, but it's not my favorite.

The BCG is(or would be if the nice fellows from Taldren would give it the logical 12 drone control it DESERVES) my favorite ship.

[knightstorm]

no matter what J'inn tells you, avoid the Fed DD like the plague

I tend to agree with you with regards to the regular DD, but I really like the DDL+.  The extra 4 energy points, and replacing 2 of the photons with F-Torps really helps to solve the ship's power issues.  The only things I dislike about it are the lack of amd, and the relatively weak shields.

[Nemesis]

I tend to agree with you with regards to the regular DD, but I really like the DDL+.  The extra 4 energy points, and replacing 2 of the photons with F-Torps really helps to solve the ship's power issues.  The only things I dislike about it are the lack of amd, and the relatively weak shields.

The AMD lack makes sense given its SFB history.  The plasma F were supplied by the Gorn and the ships were supposed to be deployed against the Romulans.  No drones, no need for AMD.

I like the DDL myself. 

[knightstorm]

The AMD lack makes sense given its SFB history.  The plasma F were supplied by the Gorn and the ships were supposed to be deployed against the Romulans.  No drones, no need for AMD.

I like the DDL myself.

SFB is the key word.  You're rarely in a position where the threat of drones doesn't hang over you in SFC.  Fortunately, this is somewhat mitigated by the in the situations where I'm likely to fly the DDL+, such as GSA matches and on the dyna before the introduction of the NCL, I'm unlikely to run into anything other than slow drones.  The weak shields are more of an annoyance for me, although the ship has a high number of labs and hull strength for its bpv which partially makes up for that as long as I avoid taking any big hits.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I love the pre-refit DD! But only in early era games against other ships of the period, unlike the campaign Father Ted mentioned.

The note about most Klinks being droners is interesting. I haven't had much D2 experience, but when I did play as the Klinks for a little bit the droners were definitely the easiest AI killers, so that would make sense. In GSA with slow drones like Knight says, it forces the Klingons to be more traditional, using the drones as a distraction and occasional scatterpack opportunity, but relying on phasers and disruptors.

And me.  I prefer the non specialty ships.  Line and command variants F5, D6 and D7 hulls.  If I was a droner I'd fly Mirak.

I agree about the F5 and D7 (the D7W is probably my favorite ship), they take some getting used to but are great. The D6 is good too, I just can't fly it.

[Nemesis]

You're rarely in a position where the threat of drones doesn't hang over you in SFC.

True, I've been there.  Playing as a Romulan with no Pl-D against Mirak.  Using a K-7T to test the then latest Photon adjustment that the Feds were whining about (I had no issue), ran into a player with 3 Z-DFs.  Other less extreme times. 

[FPF-DieHard]

By turning down the slider you reduce the fire rate of your Phasers, you can't fire all of them every turn, only some of them.  If arming ALL weapons at full rate the F-CB has less power for movement than the F-CA, that is a fact.

Your point of comparison is absurd, maybe in SFB but in the real time game of SFC how often do you fire every "round' anyway?   You spend more than jockeying for position, to get the "right" shot as opposed to just firing every "round."   Is the NCL superior to the CLC?   by your argument it is because it's got more weapons and the same power.

The only valid test is combat and I can tell you from literally hundred of kills in a Federation CB, I'm right.

Now - by 2280 or so the CB's lack of power does turn it into a coffin once fast drones and attrition units start showing up.  The CX fixes that making the "Connie" hull viable in end-game.  X-ships tactics are an issue for anohter conversation.

[Age]

The F-CB has a worse power curve than the F-CA.  Surprised?  The  F-CB gains 4 point of power true.  It also gains 4 PhI and 2 PhIII which between them use 5 point of power.  So when charging all weapons it is SLOWER than the F-CA.

I just read this - this is rubbish.  You can turn the cap-slider down to have plenty of power to charge weapons while moving.

By turning down the slider you reduce the fire rate of your Phasers, you can't fire all of them every turn, only some of them.  If arming ALL weapons at full rate the F-CB has less power for movement than the F-CA, that is a fact. 

Don't Lyrans turn down the capacitor of the ESG if needed against on coming missiles.I agree with DH although a NCL+ is just a good as CLC not NCL.I would also say that a CB can survive its own in advanced tech as with NCA-CC.

knightstrom we fight the flathead Klinks.