Topic: Fed strategies needed

[Nemesis]

Maintaining "reserve power" to allow you to accelerate and catch the Klingon after he turns away from his oblique strike can make him think you have overloads when in fact you don't.  This in a CA leaves the ability to have an extra 8 points of power that you can use to reinforce the shield you are trying to make the opponent hit and then accelerate by that much to pound them from behind as they turn away to prepare for the next pass.

This is interesting, I'm just wondering how it would work against a cautious Klingon. I know it's impossible to keep range 15+ all the time against a faster opponent while still wheeling around and firing the disruptors, so if I saw a Fed accelerating toward me, I would turn off the dizzies and accelerate to speed 31 (or close), firing phasers and drones only until their front shield is gone and they turn off, then back to the Saber Dance. If we can assume that the Klingon never gets closer than range 8, what options does the Federation captain have?

If you are fighting a cautious Klingon then you are fighting a TOS Klingon rather than a TNG one and have added problems right there.

First you cannot know the status of the Fed photons unless you are close enough to see the charge level and that does not tell you standard or overload.  So the cautious Klingon with a slow Fed is assuming overloads and will stay out of overload range.   When doing so he reduces his damage potential.  As he turns (from an oblique approach to oblique departure) he will reveal his number 3 or 5 shield and likely if he has reinforcement it is on his 2 or 6 based on the assumption you will fire about the same time he does.  This curving turn means that he is departing at a slower speed than his actual speed.  There will also be a delay between your accelerating and his knowing the significance of it.   Once he does recognize it he has to accelerate too and likely you don't need to close by too much to make it into the next range category to improve your damage.  If he fired his PhII in the range 9-15 category and you manage to fire your PhI at 5-8 range you just hurt him more than he hurt you.  If you did it right his attack hit reinforcement and yours did not. 

One thing I often do is fire my Photons 1 bank at a time, even 1 photon at a time.  If the first bank totally misses it is often better NOT to fire the 2nd bank.  If the first bank knocks the shield down (or nearly so including your  PhI fire) the 2nd bank even with one hit is likely to do internals.  By not firing the 2nd bank at a shield where internals will not recur I maintain extra fire power for if he closes while my photons are rearming and by holding them I free up 2 points of power as well.

[Nemesis]

Phaser 2 does not have lower damage. It has less range. Once in range it does the same damage as a phaser 1.

Please recheck the weapon damage charts.  PhI maximum damage = 9.  PhII maximum damage = 6.

[marstone]

Phaser 2 does not have lower damage. It has less range. Once in range it does the same damage as a phaser 1.

Please recheck the weapon damage charts.  PhI maximum damage = 9.  PhII maximum damage = 6.

Thanks I knew it was different but didn't have my charts near me to state that. 

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

One thing I often do is fire my Photons 1 bank at a time, even 1 photon at a time.  If the first bank totally misses it is often better NOT to fire the 2nd bank.  If the first bank knocks the shield down (or nearly so including your  PhI fire) the 2nd bank even with one hit is likely to do internals.  By not firing the 2nd bank at a shield where internals will not recur I maintain extra fire power for if he closes while my photons are rearming and by holding them I free up 2 points of power as well.

I'll make a section on photon cycling then (along with tips on turning off all or half of the tubes and other power management). In the case of firing one torpedo or bank at a time, does the Fed try to maintain a safe distance from the Klink? Like Knight said, if the Fed has only half of its photons held and the phasers are probably recharging, I can see the Klingon closing in with overloads and phasers and getting a pretty good damage tradeoff with the Fed. Maybe photon cycling is something that should be used against only Klingons.

Speaking of TNG Klingons (if you mean the idea of closing in and flying aggressively), how well does that work in SFB/SFC?

[Nemesis]

I'll make a section on photon cycling then (along with tips on turning off all or half of the tubes and other power management). In the case of firing one torpedo or bank at a time, does the Fed try to maintain a safe distance from the Klink? Like Knight said, if the Fed has only half of its photons held and the phasers are probably recharging, I can see the Klingon closing in with overloads and phasers and getting a pretty good damage tradeoff with the Fed. Maybe photon cycling is something that should be used against only Klingons.

The cycling as I described it is intended for situations where you need a certain minimum impact.  Lets say for example you need to hit 3 of 4 to be useful, if the first 2 miss then there is no point in firing the next 2 in that case.  It can also be used for the Mizia effect if the shield is down or is taken down by the first shot.

Part of the goal for the Fed is to fire AFTER the Klingon and at a closer range.  That way the Klingon is hurt worse and at most gets one shot with the disruptors before the photons reload and he needs to be away.

Speaking of TNG Klingons (if you mean the idea of closing in and flying aggressively), how well does that work in SFB/SFC?

I don't like TNG Klingons so I'm rather the wrong one to ask that.  Though I have done aggressive attacks when the circumstances favoured it.

In the Klingon - Fed battle the ideal for the Klingon is that the Fed fires early at a less than optimum range and thus opens up a window for the Klingon to get in close and knife fight.  Lets say for example the Fed thinks you are just ducking in to range 8 then pulling out before he can get his overloads off and he fires first.  The Klingon then can close in to range 0 if he wants as the Fed has nothing to stop him.   The Klingon then can fire all his phasers and disruptors at close and heavily damaging range not once but twice before the Feds photons cycle and the Fed will have to use some of his phasers to stop the drones increasing the temporarty armament disparity.

This ideal battle is why the Fed needs to hold photons in reserve to induce the Klingon to either maintain range while the Fed waits for a mistake to take advantage of of to punish the Klingon who thinks it an opening to close in for.  If you think the Klingon is going to close when the first two photons are fired, overloading the 2nd pair is a good option especially if they are just being held and were armed earlier. 

The sabre dance evolved not just to attack the Feds but to DEFEND the Klingon.  The disruptor is better at those intermediate ranges than the photons and the reverse is true at close ranges.  The Photon therefore functions as a "stand off" weapon when the two fight.  However the Klingons can fight effectively though slowly at that range and when the Photons have been fired the Klingons come in to "play" before they can rearm.  The large Phaser suite allows a very effective Mizia attack sequence.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Phaser 2 does not have lower damage. It has less range. Once in range it does the same damage as a phaser 1.

Please recheck the weapon damage charts.  PhI maximum damage = 9.  PhII maximum damage = 6.

I sit corrected.......

[Age]

It might be good for the crunch race but there are usually 2 races Feds fight with plasma which doesn't give us whole lot of power.I would of gave Fed CAs 38 power and BCH 44 power in mid era to late/advanced.I think that when the game was designed they went with ADB board stats which is ok in the board game but PC at game speed slider 8 or 9 no way especially for new people to game like me.

The creators of the game were trying for a "realistic" feel.  In reality there are always tradeoffs.  They recognized that by the time you added all the features you might desire in a  CA it would have become a BCH in size/cost while still being a CA in armaments. 

Each ship (until later eras) has its achilles heel as does each race.  Your proposal is basically "lets take away the weaknesses of the Feds and leave them only strengths.  Where is the fun in that? 

I always disliked the X-Ships as they lack the feel of trade offs - every ship is a super ship. 

I was more or less referring to the ships with 34 to 36 power at stardate 2275 when the F-CB come out it has 38 power so why not give all Fed CAs that power.

I am referring to Fed vs Roms as they can go around with Fs loaded as full speed and still recharge them.i have done some simulated tests on that and a Novahawk can do this as well as most Rom. CAs.I am not talking about X-ships.The only way a Fed pilot can beat a Rom is long drawn out phaser fight but Roms still got plasma.This is an area I am weak in talking stock op+4.0.I am referring to the standard CA most get being that of CC+.

Hi Mog yes I know we can turn off some of our systems but it would be nice to have alteast 2 photons at our disposal.

[Nemesis]

Another Fed advantage are the extra labs.  Those labs give higher shield regeneration than most other races. 

When watching ECM don't just adjust your ECCM to cancel out the shift of your enemy MONITOR it.  One particular battle I was in I kept cranking the ECM to get that 1 point shift and my opponent kept cranking the ECCM to match me.  Once we were at 6 I waited a couple of battle passes and turned it to 0, he didn't notice.  It gave my ship a 10% power advantage as each ship had in the neighbourhood of 60 points of power.  Extra shield reinforcement or speed for me gave me a decided edge.

[Age]

I can see that being an advantage vs Klinks but not so much Roms as they don't have direct fire weapon unlike Klinks and Feds do.They can keep their ecm up to 6 or match yours.when pahaser boating you hardly need your ew on maybe 1 point of ecm.

[Nemesis]

I was more or less referring to the ships with 34 to 36 power at stardate 2275 when the F-CB come out it has 38 power so why not give all Fed CAs that power.

As of what year?  The F-CA gets incremental upgrades and the year 2275 is the year the F-CAI upgrade is in place with that power level and other enhancements.   Don't forget the F-CB is a CC replacement and the CA of the same era is not supposed to be more powerful.  So just what is your complaint again?

I am referring to Fed vs Roms as they can go around with Fs loaded as full speed and still recharge them.i have done some simulated tests on that and a Novahawk can do this as well as most Rom. CAs.I am not talking about X-ships.The only way a Fed pilot can beat a Rom is long drawn out phaser fight but Roms still got plasma.This is an area I am weak in talking stock op+4.0.I am referring to the standard CA most get being that of CC+.

So the only way for a Fed to beat a Rom is with a long drawn out phaser fight?  Welcome to the Klingon world of the sabre dance against the Federation.   

The Novahawk is the contemporary and equivalent of the F-CB mentioned above.  How are its Pl-S loaded when running at speed 31?  At least the CBs 10 Phaser I have the same range as the NovaHawks 7 Phaser I.  You also get the 2 drone racks to soak up his power or smack him with a scatterpack or 2.  Your CB also has more labs for better shield regeneration.

Link to DieHard discussing F-CB vs Novahawk

Hi Mog yes I know we can turn off some of our systems but it would be nice to have alteast 2 photons at our disposal.

As shown earlier the D7 has no more power available after charging all weapons and doesn't get a power advantage by "holding" any of them.  So why does the Fed need more power than the Klingons in their more fragile ships?

[Nemesis]

I can see that being an advantage vs Klinks but not so much Roms as they don't have direct fire weapon unlike Klinks and Feds do.They can keep their ecm up to 6 or match yours.when pahaser boating you hardly need your ew on maybe 1 point of ecm.

The point wasn't to use that trick but to avoid having it used against you as the Feds are especially vulnerable to ECM.  In that particular battle I was Hydran vs a Lyran (Tribble actually). 

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

When watching ECM don't just adjust your ECCM to cancel out the shift of your enemy MONITOR it.  One particular battle I was in I kept cranking the ECM to get that 1 point shift and my opponent kept cranking the ECCM to match me.  Once we were at 6 I waited a couple of battle passes and turned it to 0, he didn't notice.  It gave my ship a 10% power advantage as each ship had in the neighbourhood of 60 points of power.  Extra shield reinforcement or speed for me gave me a decided edge.

I love when this happens. I like to keep the EW panel at on the hotkey [h] (I forget if it's default or custom) and have it always up unless I need to change with the weapon settings. Also, the reverse is nice. For example, you have 4 ECM and are facing a Fed with 4 ECCM and they just manage to enter range 8 . . . there is no time to charge up 5 ECM, but you know they're going to fire, so you activate EM. If you're lucky, they blow everything and miss.

I was more or less referring to the ships with 34 to 36 power at stardate 2275 when the F-CB come out it has 38 power so why not give all Fed CAs that power.

I am referring to Fed vs Roms as they can go around with Fs loaded as full speed and still recharge them.i have done some simulated tests on that and a Novahawk can do this as well as most Rom. CAs.I am not talking about X-ships.The only way a Fed pilot can beat a Rom is long drawn out phaser fight but Roms still got plasma.This is an area I am weak in talking stock op+4.0.I am referring to the standard CA most get being that of CC+.
[/quote]

I think the reason that even the fully refitted CA/CC line have only 36 power is because they just can't fit any more systems in. By the time the ship is expanded and extra power is added, you have a ship the size of the CB (in SFB history, I don't know if the actual hull of the CC was expanded to make the CB, but even if it wasn't, the added power would at least give you the cost of a CB/CCH).

Although the Novahawk is a beefed up New Series CC, it is really point-wise equal to other races' BCHs, and I think the F-BCF is a good match for it. If we are flying the CC+ (149) and CB (165), I think some more balanced Romulan opponents are some of the KR series (K7RB at 166) . . . and I can't really think of too many Romulans around 150, so if that is the max BPV, it should have a decent advantage over ships like the SPA+/SPL+. That's if we say that the BPV system is perfectly balanced . . . ha!

[Nemesis]

The F-CB has a worse power curve than the F-CA.  Surprised?  The  F-CB gains 4 point of power true.  It also gains 4 PhI and 2 PhIII which between them use 5 point of power.  So when charging all weapons it is SLOWER than the F-CA.

[Nemesis]

Also, the reverse is nice. For example, you have 4 ECM and are facing a Fed with 4 ECCM and they just manage to enter range 8 . . . there is no time to charge up 5 ECM, but you know they're going to fire, so you activate EM. If you're lucky, they blow everything and miss.

Very close to a trick I use as Romulan.  Fire pseudo, activate cloak.  They can't see the early stages of the cloak but it does have some affect.  Enough to make the photon hit rate drop dramatically.  Decloak at point blank range fire real plasma then single fire other weapons for Mizia effect (note the longer range for a Plasma to be "point blank").  That was part of the ruse I used to take down a F-CA with a R-WB . 

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Nemesis, I missed your link to the "R-NHK vs F-CB" thread originally, but it has a lot of good stuff like this:

You don't have to do 31 if you knock his front down. A good proxy shot on his #1 will set you up for the running battle.

After he starts taking internals through the front you can slow a tad to let your capacitor charge, as he will be forced into an oblique pursuit.

If he keeps giving you the down front, use mines and drones to make him pay.

Maybe a full proxy barrage at range 30 on the forward shield to start, recharge, and another barrage at range 12.9, followed by phaser-1s. Hopefully by the time the Rommie noticed the Fed plan, it would be too late.

[Nemesis]

A link to an old tactics thread.

[Age]

I was more or less referring to the ships with 34 to 36 power at stardate 2275 when the F-CB come out it has 38 power so why not give all Fed CAs that power.

As of what year?  The F-CA gets incremental upgrades and the year 2275 is the year the F-CAI upgrade is in place with that power level and other enhancements.   Don't forget the F-CB is a CC replacement and the CA of the same era is not supposed to be more powerful.  So just what is your complaint again?

I guess I am looking at form FireSouls OP+ Shiplist which F-CAR+R and F-CCR is refitted with extra dones as why the power isn't increased as well both of these ship are refitted in 2275.   

I am referring to Fed vs Roms as they can go around with Fs loaded as full speed and still recharge them.i have done some simulated tests on that and a Novahawk can do this as well as most Rom. CAs.I am not talking about X-ships.The only way a Fed pilot can beat a Rom is long drawn out phaser fight but Roms still got plasma.This is an area I am weak in talking stock op+4.0.I am referring to the standard CA most get being that of CC+.

So the only way for a Fed to beat a Rom is with a long drawn out phaser fight?  Welcome to the Klingon world of the sabre dance against the Federation.   

The Novahawk is the contemporary and equivalent of the F-CB mentioned above.  How are its Pl-S loaded when running at speed 31?  At least the CBs 10 Phaser I have the same range as the NovaHawks 7 Phaser I.  You also get the 2 drone racks to soak up his power or smack him with a scatterpack or 2.  Your CB also has more labs for better shield regeneration.

What about Novahawk just using F-tops which can be loaded and held as speeds 31.

Link to DieHard discussing F-CB vs Novahawk

Hi Mog yes I know we can turn off some of our systems but it would be nice to have alteast 2 photons at our disposal.

As shown earlier the D7 has no more power available after charging all weapons and doesn't get a power advantage by "holding" any of them.  So why does the Fed need more power than the Klingons in their more fragile ships?

I am not saying they need more power than the Klingon infact I said I even think the Klingons could use more power as well.

Orginally Posted by Nemesis
The F-CB has a worse power curve than the F-CA.  Surprised?  The  F-CB gains 4 point of power true.  It also gains 4 PhI and 2 PhIII which between them use 5 point of power.  So when charging all weapons it is SLOWER than the F-CA.

I wouldn't say that and I only use phaser 1 and keep the 3 on defence if this were true you couldn't even charge photons at speeds of 25 with an F-CA which an F-CB. can

[FPF-DieHard]

Wow -  I can't believe that epic CB v NHK thread is 5 years old.  The tactics discussed in that are still valid.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Wow -  I can't believe that epic CB v NHK thread is 5 years old.  The tactics discussed in that are still valid.

Yeah, that nice thread is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for (much easier and more valid/playtested to compile tips from the success of past pilots than try to write something completely new). Do you know if there is a similar thread for Feds vs. other races, especially Klinks? Maybe lurking on the SFB legacy board might turn some things up . . .

[Nemesis]

Do you know if there is a similar thread for Feds vs. other races, especially Klinks?

Best advice for the Feddies facing a Klingon - Surrender.