Topic: Who won the Earth - Romulan war?

[Nemesis]

Since Humans never saw a Romulan during the war it can be taken as a fact that the war never reached a Romulan inhabited planet.  That being the case it appears to me that the Romulans won the war. 

As supporting evidence consider Stiles testimony of his families fortunes in the war:  Captain, two Commanders and several junior officers, all dead.  Run of bad luck having no survivors if they were on the winning side. 

[knightstorm]

Well, considering the Romulans were an expansionist power, the continued existence of an independent federation would seem to be indicative of an earth victory, or at least a stalemate.  Also, you don't have to see the enemy's faces in order to bombard them from orbit.

[Nemesis]

Given the long periods of peace it is hard to really call the Romulans expansionist.  Isolationist is more accurate with wide empty zones to buffer them from contact.

If Earth had the ability to attack a planet in force do you really think they wouldn't raid to gain intelligence info?  Knowledge of the physical abilities of your enemy is important.  Knowledge of their motivations even more so.  Direct examples of their technology would also be sought.  If they were in position to gather such intelligence from a Romulan planet I have no doubt they would have done so.

[knightstorm]

There really wasn't peace.  The dialogue in balance of terror between the commander and the centurion indicates that the Romulans merely turned their conquest in other directions.

Its always more dangerous to put troops on the ground than it is to just nuke them from space.  Also, you're assuming that if they raided they would find people.  According to Stiles, they were able to capture an intact bird of prey without seeing any Romulans.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Franz Joesph's book has the "peace treaty"  and from what I've inferred from it, it was a draw.  The Romulans struck first, and had the Earth Forces on the defensive for some time.  When Earth got back their territory, most of it anyway, they went to peace.  I would call it a draw, but you could make an argument for a marginal victory by the Romulans.

[Nemesis]

According to Stiles, they were able to capture an intact bird of prey without seeing any Romulans.

I don't recall that.  Please place where in the episode he states it.

There really wasn't peace.  The dialogue in balance of terror between the commander and the centurion indicates that the Romulans merely turned their conquest in other directions.

Was it conquest or again creating a buffer zone?  It could just as easily have been putting down rebellions on their own planets as well (consider the Remans).

[knightstorm]

I don't recall that.  Please place where in the episode he states it.

I don't remember the exact point in the episode, but it was before they saw the Romulan ship.  Stiles describes seeing a captured one in a museum and stating that it was painted like a big bird of prey.

Was it conquest or again creating a buffer zone?  It could just as easily have been putting down rebellions on their own planets as well (consider the Remans).

The dialogue seems to indicate that what the Romulans are doing in the episode seems to be standard procedure.  Testing the defenses in order to determine if they are weak enough for the empire to defeat them in a large scale conflict, and then going to war.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Stiles never mentioned the museum.  As I recall he said, "You'll know them when you see them, they're painted like a giant Bird of Prey."

To which Kirk responded, "I didn't realize history was your area of expertise."

Stiles shoots back, "Family history, sir.  There was a Stiles in the Star Service then."

As to why the Romulans went to war, and stopped the war, I can't say.  My best guess is that when Earth started regaining their lost territories, The Romulans realized just how quickly it could get out of hand, especially if say the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, et. al, were starting to get involved on Earth's side, and decided to cut their losses.

[Nemesis]

I don't recall that.  Please place where in the episode he states it.

I don't remember the exact point in the episode, but it was before they saw the Romulan ship.  Stiles describes seeing a captured one in a museum and stating that it was painted like a big bird of prey.

I have the tape in and just watched that section - twice.  When Kirk asked Stiles how they would recognize a Romulan ship he gives the description of them, "painted like a giant bird of prey"  Kirk then comments how he didn't know Stiles was a student of history to which Stiles responds "family history" and goes on to list the Stiles in the war and the fact that they all died. 

At no point does he mention seeing one himself, a museum or one being captured.

[knightstorm]

could have sworn otherwise.  I'll dig out my dvd set.

[Sirgod]

Romulans are The Wrong Paul of Star Trek politics.

Ok, I know, that was uncalled for. But I couldn't resist.

Stephen

[Nemesis]

The dialogue seems to indicate that what the Romulans are doing in the episode seems to be standard procedure.  Testing the defenses in order to determine if they are weak enough for the empire to defeat them in a large scale conflict, and then going to war.

That is definitely a possibility.  The same practice could be used due to either conquest or to build a buffer zone for isolationism.  A neighbour is too close, probe for weakness and if found attack to acquire territory for the neutral zone. 

The reference by the Romulan Commander to "Duty, death and more death, soon enough even for the Praetors taste" could just as easily make the expansionist phase something begun when that Praetor gained power.  The long time before meeting them again could be explained by the Praetor losing power to a traditionalist isolationist successor.

All speculation of course.

As to why the Romulans went to war, and stopped the war, I can't say.  My best guess is that when Earth started regaining their lost territories, The Romulans realized just how quickly it could get out of hand, especially if say the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, et. al, were starting to get involved on Earth's side, and decided to cut their losses.

The Federation was formed not long after the end of the Earth - Romulan war.  It is easy to guess that the Romulans found themselve facing first Earth alone then other races providing aid then later military forces.  As the war expanded an alliance formed against the Romulans.  They might easily have foreseen eventually defeat and chose to end the war while they still had more territory then when they started it.

When the war ended the Alliance instead of falling apart grew and became the Federation.

The Romulans a century later presumably expected that Earth was once more standing alone, unaware of the existence of the Federation. 

The "Earth Stations" along the neutral zone could have deceived the Romulans into believing that Earth stood alone since the Federation had Earth maintain them due to the treaty being one between Earth and the Romulans rather than taking them under Federation control.  The Federation might even have been looser than we usually assume with each planet maintaining their own fleets, bases, outposts and so forth.  The neutral zone might merely have been the edge of the Earths zone of influence and therefore under Earth jurisdiction.

[Villa64]

Makes sense that if a century ago, they named them "Earth Outpost Stations" then the name stuck with no redesignation, just like "New York" even though there is nothing new about it anymore, or "Fort Hood" refers to a leader from a century ago with no name change.

..and if the war results in a neutral zone and so forth, sounds more like a draw.  If the Stiles's had a bad run, I didnt really see that as an indicator of a Federation loss, but a hard fought war at best.