Topic: ISC Strategies needed  (Read 13046 times)

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Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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ISC Strategies needed
« on: November 26, 2009, 01:08:32 pm »
As kind of a long-term thing, I've been putting together a list of strategies for each race in SFC2:EAW/OP (http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163387137.0.html). That kind of thing helped me out a lot when I first started playing, and still does.

However, I can't find any ISC strategy articles to link to (those that are out there are for SFB and echelon tactics). So if you know of any useful ISC "tricks," especially those for single-ship engagements, I'm looking to compile them into an article. For example, I remember Corbomite said something a while ago about ISC ships being able to fire all of their ph-1 out of the FA arc, which is useful against opponents on an open map who are trying to run from plasma. Little things like that would be great. Thanks (and happy Thanksgiving!).

Offline 762_XC

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2009, 05:39:08 pm »
vs. non-Hydrans:

Step 1) Shoot things with PPD
Step 2) Win

vs. Hydrans:

Step 1) Run like hell
Step 2) When you reach the corner, disengage
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2009, 08:03:33 pm »
vS isc IN A nEB, DISENGAGE... oops caps.

Offline Age

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2009, 12:36:33 pm »
I thought this was going to about how to beat the ISC oh well every pilot is different.I would prefer good strategies on how to beat the Roms and this looking at you down there v.

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2009, 11:04:57 am »
Okay, so they're nasty in a nebula, that makes sense. And the PPD is nasty too. Are Hydrans specially suited to fight the ISC or is that just a little Hydran bias? :P

Offline 762_XC

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2009, 12:15:08 pm »
ISC are not real hot on point defense, so dealing with fighters is a racial weakness for the most part. Especially on ships without I-torps.
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2009, 01:00:18 pm »
Lyrans are the best ISC killers, especially the SFB cannon L-BCX (comes out too late for GW)
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2009, 07:13:37 pm »
Okay, so they're nasty in a nebula, that makes sense. And the PPD is nasty too. Are Hydrans specially suited to fight the ISC or is that just a little Hydran bias? :P

Actually its that the ISC is all the way across the galaxy from the Hydrans so they are the most unfamiliar to them, but then again, rarely missing range 8 fighter weapons really can ruin anyone's day.

ISC tactics are all about power management and keeping them at arms length long enough to charge. You have tons of firepower, but very few ships have the power to charge all of it above speed 10 so you learn what to turn off or not to fire for each circumstance. If they allow you time to charge, they win the fight for you.

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2009, 10:53:09 pm »
Thanks for the replies. So far, I've been working on narrowing down the disadvantages of the ISC, and I've added what you guys have put in:

  • Poor maneuverability. ISC ships turn at the same speed as Federation and Gorn ships, so they are tied with the slowest in the game. The frigates and destroyers are about equal to most other races, but as you get to the light cruisers and above, the ISC get more and more sluggish. This means that turning to hide a downed shield is problematic, and so is keeping up with wingmen (in multiplayer games).
  • Power-hungry systems, but only average power. The larger ISC ships have to power a large phaser capacitor, plasma torpedoes, and PPDs. ISC ships have decent power, but it’s nothing special considering the energy cost of their weapons. As a result, the ISC can’t go as fast as the ships of other races while they are loading their weapons. Another thing to keep in mind is that PPDs and plasma-G/S both take power to hold, even if they are charged.
  • Limited plasma arcs on pre-refit ships. The FF, DD, and CL series all have FH (forward 180 degrees) plasma arcs. While this means that they can fire either torpedo obliquely, it means that they have no plasma to the rear, and few phaser-1s. This makes dealing with aggressive opponents difficult, especially if they have more crunch power. This problem is fixed with the Z refit, which adds plasma-I launchers to the sides and rear.
  • Spread-out plasma arcs. The average late-era Romulan or Gorn cruiser has two plasma-S and two plasma-F torpedoes, and can fire these from the forward centerline. ISC cruisers might have about the same total plasma firepower (since they can only fire two plasma-I at a time), but their plasma-I will always face different directions than the heavier plasma. This means that standard ISC cruiser can’t throw out 100 points of plasma towards a target if it catches the target in an anchor, for example. So it doesn’t quite have the knockout potential that Romulan and Gorn ships have.
  • Expensive BPV cost.
  • Besides weapons, no advances in other systems for each refit. Although the refitted ISC ships get more weapons, they never get any more power, labs, hull, etc.
  • Poor point defense, especially on pre-refit ships. This makes dealing with fighters and drones difficult.



Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2009, 02:48:09 am »
Many of the ISC's "cons" are related to their strengths in earlier eras:

1.  Maneuverability - considering that early-mid, ISC ships will be fighting "one class up" for an equal BPV battle (CLW/CLY/CSP vs CA/CC hull) means that the ISC will actually equal (Klink) or out-maneuver (Fed-Gorn) their "era appropriate" contemporaries (CL-line has maneuver class C, matching D7 and beating F-CC/G-CC).

2.  Without having to feed I-torps, many ISC ships can pace, if out out-speed, their contemporaries while charging weapons.  Also, while the Ph-1 suites are "large" for their hull class, they frequently match the phaser output of their early contemporaries (F-CA has 6 Ph-1, CL-line has 6 Ph-1).

3.  The dual FH forward plasmas on the FFL/DD/CL lines means that both torps can be brought to pass on the oblique attack, though it does exaggerate the ISC's rear-weapon issue.

4.  While the ISC can't exactly drop a 100-pt bomb, they are able to "mizia" their torpedoes by entering a slow or stuttery 360 spin.  Fire twin mains, turn to bring a rear torp to bear, then fire other torp as back swings around.  Repeat or rear-centerline both I-torps next turn, completing the 360 in time to bring forward torps to bear again...

5.  Their "expensive BPV costs" actually match up to their "expected" opposition in late war combats.  Remember that BCHs get built in CA slipways, and CWs/NCWs are built in CA slipways.  I-CAY/CAZ is a match for many a BCH, while the CLZ/CSZ match up to CCs/CCHs...

6.  The fact that ISC ships carry their late-era secondaries (power, labs, hull, etc.) back into earlier era is one of the reasons that ISC CLs have F-CA or K-D7 level BPVs.  It is fun to have a late-era power curve feediing a handful of Ph-1s and both main torps only in early era, allowing the ISC ship to maneuver at high speeds.

7.  No counter, ISC are designed to be weak in PD, relying on the Echelon to cover PD needs...

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Offline marstone

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2009, 03:45:08 am »
tough part for ISC tactics, the ships were designed to be part of the echelon not for a one on one battle.  So many weaknesses they have one on one, are covered when flying as a group.
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2009, 05:33:14 am »
Thanks for the replies. So far, I've been working on narrowing down the disadvantages of the ISC, and I've added what you guys have put in:


  • Poor maneuverability. ISC ships turn at the same speed as Federation and Gorn ships, so they are tied with the slowest in the game. The frigates and destroyers are about equal to most other races, but as you get to the light cruisers and above, the ISC get more and more sluggish. This means that turning to hide a downed shield is problematic, and so is keeping up with wingmen (in multiplayer games).

Not really a problem by late era as they are flying gun turrets with good weapons pointing in all directions.


Quote
  • Power-hungry systems, but only average power. The larger ISC ships have to power a large phaser capacitor, plasma torpedoes, and PPDs. ISC ships have decent power, but it’s nothing special considering the energy cost of their weapons. As a result, the ISC can’t go as fast as the ships of other races while they are loading their weapons. Another thing to keep in mind is that PPDs and plasma-G/S both take power to hold, even if they are charged.


The trick is not to fire everything at once (you don't need to as you usually have about 1/3 more firepower than your opponent) and hold onto the free holding I-Torps untill the coup de gras or they are stupid enough to chase you. Rule one of ISC tactics is to never fire an I-Torp that won't hit. Your charging speed priorities should not include charging the I-Torps. ISC CA/CC ships have weaker front shields than many of their counterparts and max out at eight PH-1's where most races go to ten on their CCH/BCH models. The fact that all ISC ships can fire all PH-1's in the FA is a great advantage as most races are lucky to be able to fire all offensive phasers in one particular direction (e.g. all straight ahead like the Feds or all straight behind like the Klinks).


Quote
  • Limited plasma arcs on pre-refit ships. The FF, DD, and CL series all have FH (forward 180 degrees) plasma arcs. While this means that they can fire either torpedo obliquely, it means that they have no plasma to the rear, and few phaser-1s. This makes dealing with aggressive opponents difficult, especially if they have more crunch power. This problem is fixed with the Z refit, which adds plasma-I launchers to the sides and rear.


FF's don't get an I-Torp refit. The FH Plasma arcs are a boon and a curse. They reduce your overall firing solution options in favor of grouping the torps to be able to fire together through 180 degrees instead of 30 degrees. Its a tactics thing and a matter of preferences, but it does leave your rear exposed.



Quote
  • Spread-out plasma arcs. The average late-era Romulan or Gorn cruiser has two plasma-S and two plasma-F torpedoes, and can fire these from the forward centerline. ISC cruisers might have about the same total plasma firepower (since they can only fire two plasma-I at a time), but their plasma-I will always face different directions than the heavier plasma. This means that standard ISC cruiser can’t throw out 100 points of plasma towards a target if it catches the target in an anchor, for example. So it doesn’t quite have the knockout potential that Romulan and Gorn ships have.


HET's are your friend!


Quote
  • Expensive BPV cost.


This is to make up for the fact that the I-Torps work better than they should. A fix tried in EAW broke the weapon.


Quote
  • Besides weapons, no advances in other systems for each refit. Although the refitted ISC ships get more weapons, they never get any more power, labs, hull, etc.


And they don't need them, except for the Dreds (they need more power).


Quote
  • Poor point defense, especially on pre-refit ships. This makes dealing with fighters and drones difficult.


You don't know how many times I've heard this and it makes me chuckle every time. An I-CAZ has eight PH-1's, six PH-3's, six I-Torps and four Tractor Beams (not counting the ability to arm Defensive Torps with the S-Torps). A drone basically never hits me, plasma is reduced greatly if you hold your shot until the last second and fighters die quite nicely. The one thing you will  notice about all these systems is they cost power. Other PD systems are free (AMD, Plasma D). If you can deplete PD and over run the ship before it can recover they are going to be in trouble. Also the PPD is a wonderful long range fighter killer.


« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 05:44:50 am by Corbomite »

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2009, 11:57:50 am »
This is some good stuff. I'll have some more free time in the next week, so I'll put together another draft with some more sections too.

Offline Age

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2009, 05:52:04 pm »


You don't know how many times I've heard this and it makes me chuckle every time. An I-CAZ has eight PH-1's, six PH-3's, six I-Torps and four Tractor Beams (not counting the ability to arm Defensive Torps with the S-Torps). A drone basically never hits me, plasma is reduced greatly if you hold your shot until the last second and fighters die quite nicely. The one thing you will  notice about all these systems is they cost power. Other PD systems are free (AMD, Plasma D). If you can deplete PD and over run the ship before it can recover they are going to be in trouble. Also the PPD is a wonderful long range fighter killer.



You have to go really slow though and in later eras where the fast drones come out.This comes even more harder when facing mirvs.

Then agian the ISC have their overpowered cavest 3s to help them out.I would say imho need to be nerfed.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2009, 06:38:11 pm »


You don't know how many times I've heard this and it makes me chuckle every time. An I-CAZ has eight PH-1's, six PH-3's, six I-Torps and four Tractor Beams (not counting the ability to arm Defensive Torps with the S-Torps). A drone basically never hits me, plasma is reduced greatly if you hold your shot until the last second and fighters die quite nicely. The one thing you will  notice about all these systems is they cost power. Other PD systems are free (AMD, Plasma D). If you can deplete PD and over run the ship before it can recover they are going to be in trouble. Also the PPD is a wonderful long range fighter killer.



You have to go really slow though and in later eras where the fast drones come out.This comes even more harder when facing mirvs.

Then agian the ISC have their overpowered cavest 3s to help them out.I would say imho need to be nerfed.


With four Transporters, lots of T-Bombs and 4-6 shuttles this really isn't an issue most times. You don't have to go slow, but there is no reason not to if it is a 1v1 with no fighters. The CL/CM hulls have four Transporters and four Tractor Beams too and can take up to four shuttles, which is excellent for that size hull.

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2009, 04:23:53 pm »
Got some more done, with lots of revisions. Some parts are pretty empty (like mentioning the use of underloading PPD) but they will be talked about in the Tactics section. When it's done I will put the names of contributors at the very top, if that's okay with you of course.

***************************************

   ISC starships are arguably the most capable in Starfleet Command. This is because they were designed to be better than the ships of other empires! Although certain races will be able to beat out the ISC in one or two characteristics, there is no other empire that has such a powerful blend of abilities for their ships. ISC ships are rarely balanced against a comparable class of ship of a different empire. A fully-refitted ISC light cruiser, for example, is not balanced against other CLs but instead is about equal to other heavy cruisers and command cruisers (based on BPV). This means that, although powerful, the ISC are balanced in BPV-based games; they aren’t a sure win if you are flying as them, and they aren’t impossible to beat if you are facing them.

   All pilots keep learning, and I am by no means an expert with the ISC (so read everything critically!). This article is written with 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 games in mind, with one pilot flying one ship each. This is the usual style of play for Gamespy Arcade, but the same strategies will still be useful for most of Dynaverse play and single player. I am writing this based on OP 2.5.5.2 patch and Firesoul’s OP+ 4.0 shiplist (http://klingon.pet.dhs.org/OP_plusrefit/).

ADVANTAGES OF ISC STARSHIPS:

1. High-quality ships. This is a pretty general statement, but it is true. ISC ships have good shields, good HET chances,  and they always have average or above average numbers of secondary systems (labs, transporters, hull, batteries). ISC early-era ships are on a par with the construction of most races late-era ships as far as quality goes. For example, the original Klingon D7 has the drawback of glass rear shields and an all-phaser-2 phaser suite, while the Federation CA is sluggish and underpowered. The ISC CL (equal to both of these as far as BPV goes) has none of these weaknesses, and is an all-around great ship. In the early era, ISC ships have great power curves, as they haven’t been refitted with PPD or plasma-I yet.

2. Plasmatic Pulsar Device (PPD). The PPD may be the best medium/long-range direct fire weapon. It is accurate at long ranges and because it normally fires four pulses, it has multiple chances to hit. It also does a LOT of damage quickly to multiple shields. Once those shields are down, internal damage quickly adds up as the PPD strips the targets weapons, and by then outcome of the battle is already decided. Also, because the PPD attacks the facing two/three shields and does a lot of damage, it is nearly impossible to reinforce against.
ISC light cruisers and above usually only have half of the number of PPDs compared to other races and their heavy weapons, and the PPD takes twice the energy to arm. However, because the PPDs are so effective, this doesn’t matter; two PPDs do more damage at ranges 10-20 than four disruptors or photon torpedoes. In addition, the PPD only takes half its charging energy to hold, and its unique underload function allows a lot of flexibility.
The PPD is most effective at range 15 and at range 20. At both of these ranges, it outclasses all other direct fire weapons. The PPD is arguably the best “dancing” weapon, because it does so much damage at long range while keeping the ISC ship at a safe distance from most other weapons.

3. Plasma/PPD combination. Since the PPD is a great long range dancing weapon and plasma torpedoes do lots of damage at closer ranges, they are the perfect match. Against an opponent who is flying fast and dancing at medium-long range (like the Sabre Dance with disruptors, or the Phaser Boat with ph-1), most pilots will try to close the range and overcome the dancing ship with crunch power. But because the ISC have plasma torpedoes (usually facing in every direction), anyone who tries to close the range is hit by the plasma torpedoes.
This means that an opponent can either try to keep the range open to avoid plasma torpedoes and die a quick death from PPD, or close the range to avoid the PPD and die a quicker death from plasma.
Plasma torpedoes also mean that any opponent slow enough to reinforce against the PPD by starcastling (flying slower than speed 6.0 while reinforcing the front shield(s)) will be an easy target for the plasma.

DISADVANTAGES:

1. Poor maneuverability. ISC ships turn at the same speed as Federation and Gorn ships, so they are tied with the slowest in the game. The frigates and destroyers are about equal to most other races, but as you get to the light cruisers and above, the ISC get more and more sluggish.
However, this is somewhat balanced by the fact that the ISC will usually face opponents that are the next size class up (like the I-CLZ/CSZ/CMZ example above, which is equal to most CCs/CCHs). As a result, the maneuverability of ISC ships in a balanced match will often be equal to Hydran, Lyran, or Kzinti/Mirak maneuverability.

2. Power-hungry systems, but only average power. The larger ISC ships have to power a large phaser capacitor, plasma torpedoes, and PPDs. ISC ships have decent power, but it’s nothing special considering the energy cost of their weapons. As a result, the ISC can’t go as fast as the ships of other races while they are loading their weapons. Another thing to keep in mind is that PPDs and plasma-G/S both take some power to hold when they are charged.
The good news is that plasma-I don’t take any power to hold, so once they are charged and you only use them when they are absolutely needed, the ISC can move at a good clip while using their other weapons. Also, the ISC can fight effectively while only using some of their firepower (PPD only, heavy plasma only, etc.), so they rarely have a need to charge everything all at once. As long as you are smart about charging your phasers, you can usually dance at speed 24+ while cycling between charging the PPD and the heavy plasmas.


3. Limited plasma arcs on pre-refit ships. The FF, DD, and CL series all have FH (forward 180 degrees) plasma arcs. While this means that they can fire both torpedoes to bear obliquely, it means that they have no plasma to the rear, and few phaser-1s to the rear. This makes dealing with aggressive opponents difficult, especially if they have more crunch power and you can’t turn to attack them without getting clobbered yourself.
The FH plasma arcs are a matter of opinion among plasma pilots—some like them because they are more aggressive, but others prefer the RS/LS arcs that allow the plasma user to fire nearly in any direction. The problem of the FH-arc plasmas is fixed with the Z refit on the DD and CL series, which adds plasma-I launchers to the sides and rear.

4. Spread-out plasma arcs. The average late-era Romulan or Gorn cruiser has two plasma-S and two plasma-F torpedoes, and can fire these from the forward centerline. ISC cruisers might have about the same total plasma firepower (since they can only fire two plasma-I at a time), but their plasma-I will always face different directions than the heavier plasma. This means that standard ISC cruiser can’t throw out 100 points of plasma towards a target if it catches the target in an anchor, for example. 
However, the ISC cruiser can fire both of its heavy torpedoes, use a HET, and turn quickly to fire both plasma-I. Another way around this on a slow opponent is to fire the heavies, turn 360-degrees, and firing each I-torp as it comes to bear. By the time the turn is completed, the heavy plasma will be almost charged again.


TACTICS (coming soon)

- dancing tactics
- use of I-torps
- use of ppd
- use of heavy plasma
- how to charge/charging while still flying fast
- starcastle

SHIP REVIEWS

Offline Corbomite

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2009, 07:59:02 pm »
Quote
The PPD is most effective at range 15 and at range 20.


I don't agree with the 20. The power to damage ratio is not good although it does have a decent To Hit. I'm not saying don't take the shot on a retreating enemy or even a downed shield, but five clicks closer is a much better world.





Quote
However, the ISC cruiser can fire both of its heavy torpedoes, use a HET, and turn quickly to fire both plasma-I.


Actually it is better to fire from the side where the Plasma-S and Plasma-I overlap, then swing around and do the other side.

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 01:30:05 am »
I don't agree with the 20. The power to damage ratio is not good although it does have a decent To Hit. I'm not saying don't take the shot on a retreating enemy or even a downed shield, but five clicks closer is a much better world.


Actually it is better to fire from the side where the Plasma-S and Plasma-I overlap, then swing around and do the other side.

I put the 20 there with some cautious tactics in mind (like they have some heavy plasma that you want to avoid). But I think that firing the PPD at anywhere between 15 and 20 is pointless. Just like disruptors, choose either 15 or 22, but nothing in between. I'll put something in there saying that range 15 is the way to go 90% of the time.

That makes sense with the side plasma HET, I hadn't thought of that.

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2009, 05:44:21 pm »
Update! Here it is so far: http://robbielillquist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/isc1.docx

I'm still looking for any suggestions on how to make it better (if what I have sucks, please let me know), and I still need to add the ship review section, as well as anti-fighter tactics.

Offline knightstorm

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Re: ISC Strategies needed
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2009, 05:52:07 pm »
The PPD is very effective against fighters.