Topic: new GPU time  (Read 2669 times)

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Offline candle_86

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new GPU time
« on: October 14, 2009, 07:00:58 pm »
Was going to do another render and got wild artifacts, my 6800 is finally going south so I guess I gotta replace her lol. But im not looking new here, and want to know whats still out there tahts a good match to ym system.

X2 3800 939
1gb DDR400

i know shes old but she has PCIe

Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 08:55:45 pm »
Well for NVidia,, you can slot any card into the PCIE slot.. the limiting factor is if the slot is PCIe x8 or PCIe x16

x16 will give you maximum performance of the cards up to the 9800 series.. and half performance of the GTX 2XX series (designed for PCIe 2.0 or otherwise known as x32)

x8 will give you half performance of the 7800, 8800, 9800 series and 1/4 performance of the GTX 2XX series.

Same holds true for most ATI cards as well though I usually don't build machines with ATI unless by special request.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 06:57:30 pm by Cptn_Pestalence_XC »
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Offline candle_86

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 09:57:23 pm »
lol its nforce4 its pcie16 i know i can slot any card and I know what cards go well with it, there arnt any 7800/x1800 cards around my area for sale and i dont want to spend money on overkill so what dealers ect carry these cards still

Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 12:58:51 am »
What resolution do you run, or want to run, your monitor at? How much cash you got? ;)
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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2009, 07:01:23 pm »
Newegg.com.. the 7900 GT

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143066

$49.99

Model
Brand BFG Tech
Model BFGR79512GTOCE
Interface
Interface PCI Express x16
Chipset
Chipset Manufacturer NVIDIA
GPU GeForce 7900GT
Core Clock 475MHz (vs. 450MHz standard)
PixelPipelines 24
Memory
Memory Clock 1360MHz (vs. 1320MHz standard)
Memory Size 512MB
Memory Interface 256-bit
Memory Type GDDR3
3D API
DirectX DirectX 9
OpenGL OpenGL 2.0
Ports
DVI 2
TV-Out HDTV Out
VIVO No
General
Tuner None
RAMDAC 400 MHz
Max Resolution 2560 x 1600
SLI Supported Yes
Cooler With Fan
Operating Systems Supported Microsoft Windows XP
System Requirements CPU with processor speed of 1GHz of higher
256MB of RAM
CD or DVD-ROM drive
35MB available hard disk space (50MB for full installation)
A 350W PCI Express compliant system power supply (with 12V current rating of 20A or more)
A PCI Express compliant motherboard
A vacant x16 PCI Express slot
Two available hard disk drive power dongles (smaller floppy disk drive connector is not sufficient)
-or-
A PCI Express supplementary power connector
NOTE: For two GeForce 7900 GT-based graphics cards running in NVIDIA SLI configurations, a minimum 450W system power supply (with 12V rating of 28A) is recommended.
 
Dual-Link DVI Supported Yes
Features
Features NVIDIA CineFX 4.0 engine
NVIDIA nView multi-display technology
Microsoft DirectX 9.0 Shader Model 3.0 support
Packaging
Package Contents 2 x DVI to VGA Adapter
Power Cable
HDTV Cable
Driver CD
BFGR79512GTOCE



Biggest limiting factor

DirectX 9

no DirectX 10 or 11 support.. Vid card is only good up to Windows XP capabilities.
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Offline candle_86

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 09:56:08 pm »
hmm i didnt see that when i checked odd but i like it, and i dont care if i have DX10 or 11 support, its a worthless feature to me honestly, but I wouldn't buy BFG 7900GT's super high fail rate on those cards, I remember 2006.

But i digress im giving this box to the wife anyway and she doesnt game so she can have my Radeon 7200 32mb PCI card for it lol.

We have decided together to buy me a new 700 dollar computer which i of course will build, we got some money, well a good chunk actully from her grandparents who passed away, and she decided to get herself a car and let me get a computer as well as set 5000 of it back in a savings account lol.

Here are the parts im ordering if you wanna see :P

phenom x4 810 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103650
Gigabye 770 AM3 UD3 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128392
Evga GTX 260 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130434
OCZ Gold 4gb DDR3 1066 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227346
Seagate 500gb - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148410
LG 22x DVDRW - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136168
Rosewill 550W - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182030
Xion Case - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811208027

along with a blue LED 80mm for the side vent and a 120mm rear blue LED case fan, and a blue UV sleeving kit. She will get mine to replace her aging desktop which happens to be a P3 800mhz, but she checks email and mysapce so mine will suffice and before you say why AMD its because I refuse to go intel, not with there bussiness practice's and OS is taken care of Windows 7 RC doesnt expire till next year :P


Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2009, 10:44:22 pm »
Been using BFG on all the machines I build.. 0 returns or fails.. over 200 machines built..

so your massive fails is probably user error or users truing to OC the vid card outside manufacturers spec.

As for system specs.. It is OK for a budget machine.. though I would upgrade the PSU to a 750W

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817159111

$69.99

Not a bad case either.. also looks good with 120MM side cooling fan is NZXT ATX case.. I run their Apollo case

http://www.nzxt.com/products/

their cases usually come with $20.00 mail in rebate $69.99 - $20 = $49.99

Not a big fan of AMD since Intel outperforms them and has more Microsoft support (AMD has more Linux support)..

But still a nice machine for a bugdet system
"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

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Offline candle_86

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 10:50:15 pm »
Been using BFG on all the machines I build.. 0 returns or fails.. over 200 machines built..

so your massive fails is probably user error or users truing to OC the vid card outside manufacturers spec.

As for system specs.. It is OK for a budget machine.. though I would upgrade the PSU to a 750W

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817159111

$69.99

Not a bad case either.. also looks good with 120MM side cooling fan is NZXT ATX case.. I run their Apollo case

http://www.nzxt.com/products/

their cases usually come with $20.00 mail in rebate $69.99 - $20 = $49.99

Not a big fan of AMD since Intel outperforms them and has more Microsoft support (AMD has more Linux support)..

But still a nice machine for a bugdet system


personaly experince with BGF i had a 7900GT OC when they came out, BFG along with amny others ran the cards out of spec without alot of checks, and the failure rate was very high, high enough to be mentioned on every tech forum out there actully.

Also it may seem budget but these parts are picked for good cause, that CPU will do 3.6ghz on that board, and the GPU is also known for a great OC along with the ram. This box is being built to OC. Also 750W is gross overkill, and will kill the PSU faster. You dont want to much extra power 100W extra tops otherwise the whole thing has to much stress put on it and can die early. Take this 939 its been running a 400W ATX PSU since 2005 when I built it, and its stable and about 75W more than I needed, ive looked at enough PSU spec sheets and reviews to know you dont want alot of extra power. Also im a big fan of rosewill units, its what my shop used, and they never had a single return on them. As for AMD vs Intel, Intel is faster but there bussiness practices are way off base and I choose not to support them with my wallet. To each there own though

Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 11:08:18 pm »
As for BFG.. gaming sights that test Vid Cards have BFG rated #1 for performance.. If you got duds when the company was in its infancy, then you really need to check them out again.. they have come a long way.

as for PSU.. it is a known fact, if you do your research, that running a PSU at 90% of peak 100% of the time = 10% degredation every 2 and 3/4 months.. again easily researchable.. all custom PC builders worth their salt will put in a PSU to where the max power usage is never over 75%.. as such on my machine a 1600w works sufficiently and has done so for over 2 years with only 3% degredation. for your component specifications, your peak usage will be 515.7w with the GTX 260 vid card.. as such, you will suffer PSU degredation causing graphical instability in under a year and a half. Which is why I was suggesting going with a 750W.. the PSU I posted was based on price, not on name brand.. if you want top of the line, then Ultra Modular PSU.. however their 750W is $119.99 but comes with Lifetime Warranty. so again I posed based on price and system specifications. See the  GTX 260 GPU you have listed is an 8-pin PCI-e connector 300W graphics card. so the GPU itself is 300W plus the rest of your system.

http://www.ultraproducts.com/product_details.php?cPath=103&pPath=653&productID=656 750W

http://www.ultraproducts.com/product_details.php?cPath=97&pPath=632&productID=639 my 1600W power supply

As for Intel's business practices.. Hmm.. guaranteed to work drivers, works directly with NVidia and Microsoft in development, designed to give optimal performance on NForce and Intel chipsets, Designed to give optimal performance on MS Windows, and depending on CPU, starting from the 6650 CPU and up, excellent OC ability (except the i7 920-960 CPU series).. the Quadcore Core 2 3.0 Ghz 8700 (non extreme) can run stable under air cool at 4.2 Ghz OC (given appropriate air flow). AMD's biggest problem is the 3rd party drivers for MS that they use and lack of Customer support for legacy components or even components over a year old. Though thier CPU drivers seem stable enough for MS Vista / Windows 7, however they have more random CTD / system reboots happen on AMD CPUs where Intel it hardly happens..

so based on business practices, I prefer to side with what is proven to work vs what I have to tinker with to make work correctly.

Again to each their own. Just giving some suggestions.
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Offline candle_86

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2009, 11:16:53 pm »
its there frivilous law suits not there hardware support I dont like how the conduct themselves in there dealings with others, pushing there weight around, also your figure is max load which my PC will never hit, or if it does very rarly, take for instance mine, mesaured out sevral times with a volt meter at the wall, I use normally about 230W of power when gaming about 270W, But max wattage on full blown load is 347W which I have never hit. The chances for me to fully load this new system are also slim to know besides 3d modeling nothing will use all 4 cores at once, and im not a multitasker, and my games are a little older than most. The GTX260 is for F@H because any game i play now played on my 6800 and nothing new is comming out that really will max even a GTX260, so full load is nill, I will only hit that on startup. The shop where I worked we usally but a PSU in about 25-50% more than needed, and in that shops 23 years of service not one system came back with PSU problems they sold.

Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 11:19:08 pm »
the GPU itself is a 300W GPU.. so your power estimates are way off.

the GTX 260 and up are 300W + GPU's theus requiring more and more power.. with 8 pin connections.. You may want to research your components before making jump decsions..

then you have to factor in the power consumption of the rest of the system.. if your system is using 230W with a 6800 GPU.. then your power consumption is going to be 470W normal consumption with the GTX 260 on board with a quad core running IE or Office 2K7.. if you toss in a game.. you will be hitting 500W normal settings.. and if you decide to crank up the settings to get max out of your Vid card, then you are looking at 527W.. kinds close to the fail point of the PSU already.. not counting Heat ahd degredation factors..

What you are use to using on the archaic beast you currently have is nothing in comparrison to what you have listed to build.. the power consumption has grown quite a bit...

a 680W PSU and you are comfortable and safe.. 750 will give you breathing room for expansions in the future.
"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

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Offline candle_86

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2009, 11:25:21 pm »
in my current system with the 6800 also the power rating on the BOX isnt accurate, look at reviews, Nvidia recomends 300W for my 6800, i run 400W on a quality PSU. Nvidia recomends 600W and I intend to run 550W on a quality PSU, which from my experince is more than enough, i may not have your years, but im a member of most enthusiat websites and follow these things quite well.

Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2009, 11:40:20 pm »
OK.. Go with what you think..

Let me give you my specs

i7 975 XE OC'd 4.8 GhZ air cool

8GB DDR3 Patriot Extreme gaming low latency Ram

GIGABYTE GA-EX58-UD5 LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Motherboard

Ultra X-3 1600W PSU

2 BFG NVidia GTX 295 OC2 GPUs w/ 1.5 GB gDDR3

Blue Ray Burner, Lightscribe burner

Hauppage X1600 TV Tuner

Expansion USB ports

48 in 1 memory card reader

2 WD 500GB Raptor HDD in Raid 0 Striped for 6 GB/S transfer rates

now running my system.. my average power consumption is 640W

peak power consumption on my most demanding games with graphics set to max and using Physx is 835W

Now I could comfortably use a 1000W PSU, however I feel safer with a 1600W PSU for expanding my system in the future or when I decide to build a new machine. Especially when I look at Effeciency ratings for the PSU's.. the 1600 PSU is most effecient when I am gaming.

When using a 550W PSU the effeciency rating is max at around 250W to 280W.. not at the PSU peak end.. that is where Effeciency is lowest and as such, more prone to degredation and failure.

so going off personal experience, I was just giving suggestions. I'm done with this now.. hope I helped.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 11:52:58 pm by Cptn_Pestalence_XC »
"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

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Offline marstone

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2009, 12:50:14 am »
Pesty, I will say this.  I am taking notes on everything you post on systems.  I have to do a new system soon so looking at parts to build it.  Wish I had the cash to just say build me a system and send it to me.  (maybe after a lottery win  ;D )

I also agree on the power supply.  My current system the PSU lasted about 5 years and fried out bad.  I was running it in the upper end of the power band of it.  Will not happen again.  I picked up pieces at a local store that didn't have a higher rated PSU.

Working on my new XP/programming machine and I thank you for all the tidbits you put out on this board.

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Offline candle_86

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2009, 01:16:58 am »
dont take it to mean i dont appreciate your views please, i do appreaciate them I just disagree and was taught totally diffrent both in high school during computer repair (a class i noticed most high schools dont have) and when I started working at that shop) I do appreciate your opions though and will take it to heart and tomorrow will be looking at more reseach on the matter.

Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2009, 02:26:19 am »
Example or Effeciency ratings by Chart

here is one of the top model PSU on hte market by Ultra..

550W, notice the peak effeciency is about 310W





Now notice the 800W, peak effenciency is about 430W



Here is my 1600W PSU



Peak effenciency is about 880W

so my optimal running for my system is with gaming and graphics maxed out with my current rig.. I can however still upgrade and push into the 930 to 950W range and still be comfortable.. I can push even further and lose some effeciency without getting into degredation ranges..

On the charts, the lower the bar gets, the more punishment you are doing to the PSU, and as such, the less life you will have with the unit.

Where people see effeciency in these charts, I see wear and tear..

on the 550 PSU, at peak operation, it is 79% effecient, thus 21% of that is work or wear.. but that equates into minimal degredation of the unit..

Now look at the upper limit .. It is only 73% effecient .. a 6 % increase to wear and tear.. or 27% constant work .. as such the PSU will fail much faster than running it at effecient peak.. and remember, degredation is cumlative..

so if after 3 months of running max you lose 3% effeciency rating running the system at near peak (within the 90% range of the PSU capabilities).. so that 79% will be 76% and the peak end will be 70% or 30% wear and tear.. that 30% is increased wear and as such, next 3 months you will lose approx 5% total effenciency..and that is in 6 months

You subtract that from your max rating.. 550- 5% = a loss of 27.5W peak.. as such the PSU is now rated for 522.5W.

The effect is cumulative and compounding... However degredation doesn't accumulate near as fast so long as you stay outside the 10% max rating. the 5% loss wouldn't be present if you were running Optimal effeciency until about 2 years down the line.. on my Ultra.. I only have about a 4.2% effenciency loss and the PSU is not quite 2 years old.. I figure in Feb, my effencienfy rating will have degraded by about 5 to 5.2 %.. so no where near in danger of my PSU dying..

Remember the PII systems and P III, they came with 200W PSU's, but the systems only pulled 140W max with the best graphics and sound on the market.. they overpowered the systems.. as such, my old P II and P III are working just fine.. though the PSU's are nearing the end of their life cycle.. Today in computer companies, they put PSU's at the limit of the system power requirements.. as such, the PSU may last 3 years and then needs to be replaced.. which is where they make money. they degrade quickly.

These are things that they don't teach you in Computer repair classes.. they teach you to test a PSU to see how much power it is putting out, however that is rarely tested under load.. but if the unit doesn't hit peak, pop another supply in that is rated the same..

Unfortunately, most pre-built systems come with underpowered PSU's in them and most shops do the same.. reason.. repair , warranty, part sales, return business..

Makes sence, good business model.. However in practice it is poor.. when you build your own system, throw out what School tought you.. they teach you market practice, not practicality or comparrison.

This is why I stated I speak from experience.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 02:57:36 am by Cptn_Pestalence_XC »
"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

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Offline candle_86

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2009, 01:45:35 am »
well I get what your saying, but a few points in the enthusiant community Ultra's are a sad joke, and there are units awhole lot better out there. I dont shop for brand, i shop based on the numbers on the PSU to find true manufacture, my allied here was built by seasonic so its a seasonic 450W PSU. AT my room tempture its rated for 430W, with effiency at 87%. Now taking components into question on the rig brings me to about 320W max load which will never happen so im well within tolerance. ITs the same story behind the 6800GT saying 450W PSU recomended but a high quality 350W does it fine. So I really dont care what the brand name says its the little gold sticker that I read that matters to me then I go pull up the specs on that unit.

Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: new GPU time
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2009, 11:47:29 am »
320 W would barely even start 1 of my GFX cards, it wouldn't even power up my main board with the Ram, CPU and other componends - the GFX cards as I stated before and my specs above my system requires over 600 W to run normally with games on full capability in graphics with physx enabled.... we are looking at 865W.

Believe me when I say when you pop a GTX 260 in your system... a 450W PSU will barely handle playing a game on low settings.. and if the PSU has a fail safe, then the system will just click off whtn the PSU gets hot. with a GTX 260, that would be about 15 min into a game.

But like everyone else, under power your system.. I understand budgeting, but budget within the proper requirement ranges.

Also, I wouldn't go for a GTX 260 on your system with the PSU you are claiming to use, then I would go with an 8800 GTX... it is DX 10 and well within the power range if you run med graphics.
"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

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