Topic: this has bugged me for years

[candle_86]

depends on the job, Connies would make better long range transports, could be outfited for deep space scientific study with more labs than tradtional while removing weaponry. A test platform, many uses left for the hull. Also they brought online other ships like the constellation with similar hull space, but why do so if the connie is slightly larger and already built?

[knightstorm]

depends on the job, Connies would make better long range transports, could be outfited for deep space scientific study with more labs than traditional while removing weaponry. A test platform, many uses left for the hull. Also they brought online other ships like the constellation with similar hull space, but why do so if the connie is slightly larger and already built?

The Constitutions couldn't do those jobs better than an excelsior, as for building other ships like the constellation, my guess would probably be operating "cost."  For starters, in Star Trek VI, Enterprise A had a crew of 300.  This number is over 100 lower than in TOS, however, I do not know if that is because of automation, or if it had to do with the fact that the Enterprise was just supposed to meet Gorkon and escort him to earth as opposed to a long duration cruise.  Presumably smaller ships would have smaller crew requirements.  Additionally a smaller ships are more flexible, as they can be maintained in smaller yards, and be in more places at once.

[Age]

depends on the job, Connies would make better long range transports, could be outfited for deep space scientific study with more labs than tradtional while removing weaponry. A test platform, many uses left for the hull. Also they brought online other ships like the constellation with similar hull space, but why do so if the connie is slightly larger and already built?

What would be the point in that though as knightstorm has pointed out that the Excelsior is far superior ship campared to the Old Ironsides not Connies.We really will never know as I am just assuming this.I would gather this would be the reason if you take modern navel history as an examble.

The Connie refers to the USS Constallation and the Constition is OldIronside as known in the US Navy.The Enterprise is the big E.

[candle_86]

but old iron side is still on the US Naval registry as a Naval Vessel and kept war ready, though I highly doubt it would ever be called to war. Also cost wouldnt be a factor in this time period kirk states very clearly they no longer use money, so does picard, i would assume federation credits then are used with dealings with non federation speicies but given that the federation has its own dilitium processing facilities and most likly mining facilities upkeep to run the vessles wouldnt be that large. Also we know Starfleet brought the constellation online as early as 2285 according to the USS Hattaway, but the vessel is nearly as large. Another thing by the 2360's starfleet operates lighter ships much larger than a connie, in a lighter duty capacity. So size and cost wouldn't factor in to be honest. The Connie wouldn't be affected by the Kitomer accords it wasnt a war ship it was classified as an Exploratory cruiser, but this might be why the soyuz class was decomissioned. Also by the time the A is retired it is 7 years old, and we only know canonicly of one Exclescior vessel online yet, so why retire the fleet. Also given the tensions with the romulans that lead up to the tomed incident retiring a front line ship also makes less sense given the lack of Excelscior class hulls at the time. Even by the 2360's the Excelsciors we see appear to be built from sumation in the 2300's given the 5 digit registry and not the tradition 4 digit of the 2200's, as can be refranced with by 2285 we where only up to the 2000's in registry numbers, so a sh*t to 5 digits had to occur at some point in the 2300's. Also if all ships where relcassified with the new NCC numbers that still doesnt tell us when they where brought online but from the proof we have only the Excelscior was active in 2293. With the EnterpriseB in 2294 making the 2nd offically commissioned ship. To abdon the connie at this time would not make sense in the slightest. That would leave the Federation 2 Excelscior class vessels in 2294 and alot of mirinida's oberths and constellations

[knightstorm]

but old iron side is still on the US Naval registry as a Naval Vessel and kept war ready, though I highly doubt it would ever be called to war. Also cost wouldnt be a factor in this time period kirk states very clearly they no longer use money, so does picard, i would assume federation credits then are used with dealings with non federation speicies but given that the federation has its own dilitium processing facilities and most likly mining facilities upkeep to run the vessles wouldnt be that large. Also we know Starfleet brought the constellation online as early as 2285 according to the USS Hattaway, but the vessel is nearly as large. Another thing by the 2360's starfleet operates lighter ships much larger than a connie, in a lighter duty capacity. So size and cost wouldn't factor in to be honest. The Connie wouldn't be affected by the Kitomer accords it wasnt a war ship it was classified as an Exploratory cruiser, but this might be why the soyuz class was decomissioned. Also by the time the A is retired it is 7 years old, and we only know canonicly of one Exclescior vessel online yet, so why retire the fleet. Also given the tensions with the romulans that lead up to the tomed incident retiring a front line ship also makes less sense given the lack of Excelscior class hulls at the time. Even by the 2360's the Excelsciors we see appear to be built from sumation in the 2300's given the 5 digit registry and not the tradition 4 digit of the 2200's, as can be refranced with by 2285 we where only up to the 2000's in registry numbers, so a sh*t to 5 digits had to occur at some point in the 2300's. Also if all ships where relcassified with the new NCC numbers that still doesnt tell us when they where brought online but from the proof we have only the Excelscior was active in 2293. With the EnterpriseB in 2294 making the 2nd offically commissioned ship. To abdon the connie at this time would not make sense in the slightest. That would leave the Federation 2 Excelscior class vessels in 2294 and alot of mirinida's oberths and constellations

I put cost in quotations for a reason.  While they may not be using a money economy, building, and crewing ships takes resources.  Starfleet is only going to have a limited number of personnel that can be deployed on a starship.  The federation does have limitations in its production capacity for constructing and maintaining those ships.  No federation ship is a warship.  Due to its idealism, the federation doesn't use that term.  Even the Defiant class is officially classified as an escort.  The treaty being negotiated in STVI probably did place a limit on the number of Constitutions, that's why there was that whole line about mothballing Starfleet.  As for the A, it recieved heavy battle damage, so it was first on the chopping block.  Also, despite what some idiot wrote on memory alpha, at no point in the film do they state that they are retiring the entire constitution class from service.  Registration numbers are meaningless, they were chosen without ryme or reason.  Also, I find it odd that while you start a thread complaining about there being no Constitutions in service TNG era (something which was never confirmed canonically), you seem so interested in jumping on the fact that only one Excelsior was confirmed in service canonically as of 2293.  Also, how do you know what the B was named when construction started?

[candle_86]

we do not, but it is stated on screen the A was set to be retired after the completion of retriving gorkon. Being brand new and with no battle damage what reason would there be to decomission the ship.

Also it is infered in sevral points that the only constition is a museme ship that picard once visited, and seeing as every other old dinosaur shows up there is no reason to assume the Connie is in service. The only time we saw any part of a connie was Wolf359 but seeing as it was just a damaged engineering hull and it was using 23rd century hull markings, the ship if it is a connie was scrambled into the battle likly from a salvage yard or possibly also as a museme ship. Now of course we know the reasons for the markings are the fact its the Enterprise damaged model from STIII, its still cannon which means the only connie there also was likly not an active starship. Also if there where active by the TNG era still it could also be concluded the hulls would have been used during the Domion War as they are more capable at combat than a Mirindia and if they where already refit for the era they should have seen combat.

[knightstorm]

we do not, but it is stated on screen the A was set to be retired after the completion of retriving gorkon. Being brand new and with no battle damage what reason would there be to decomission the ship.

Also it is infered in sevral points that the only constition is a museme ship that picard once visited, and seeing as every other old dinosaur shows up there is no reason to assume the Connie is in service. The only time we saw any part of a connie was Wolf359 but seeing as it was just a damaged engineering hull and it was using 23rd century hull markings, the ship if it is a connie was scrambled into the battle likly from a salvage yard or possibly also as a museme ship. Now of course we know the reasons for the markings are the fact its the Enterprise damaged model from STIII, its still cannon which means the only connie there also was likly not an active starship. Also if there where active by the TNG era still it could also be concluded the hulls would have been used during the Domion War as they are more capable at combat than a Mirindia and if they where already refit for the era they should have seen combat.

No.  They did not state that the ship was scheduled to be retired at the beginning of the film.  They only made reference to the command staff.  Furthermore, the dialogue in the film itself between Spock and Valeris indicates that he was supposed to continue in service after the command staff retired.  Picard may have been referring to a pre-refit type constitution, as it was a representation of the TOS bridge.  Once more, how do you know that there weren't any Constitutions active during the dominion war.  Remember, the production crew didn't feature Constitutions outside of (T&T) because they wanted the spinoffs to escape TOS' shadow.  Considering that in 2267, there were only a dozen ships after over 20 years in service, and assuming that production ceased in favor of the Excelsior class in the 2290s, there also may not have been that many hulls still in usable condition by the time the dominion war started.

[candle_86]

well then explain the connie hull carring the markers of the 23rd century though, why would the only connie be obsolete, unless you consider the only ones left where in salvage yards, and given the hull markings we can then state they had to have been retired by the 24th century. Also leaving the Connie behind to break away from TOS makes sense yes, but to abdon a class of vessel that was rebuilt in the 2270's arguably the space frames are almost completely new, and we know the A was new, so Connies where still be built at this time. There is no good reason then to retire the hulls.

[knightstorm]

well then explain the connie hull carring the markers of the 23rd century though, why would the only connie be obsolete

I don't quite understand what you're asking, can you rephrase it?

[candle_86]

im saying if the connie was still active then why would the only one we see in the debris field be carring hull markings from the 23rd century in the 24th century. Its more than likly it was pulled from a Salvage yard, phasers recharged and photons added back aboard and rushed to meet the borg, as any ship would be useful. But that doesnt mean she was operational as a standard vessel at this time.

[knightstorm]

im saying if the connie was still active then why would the only one we see in the debris field be carring hull markings from the 23rd century in the 24th century. Its more than likly it was pulled from a Salvage yard, phasers recharged and photons added back aboard and rushed to meet the borg, as any ship would be useful. But that doesnt mean she was operational as a standard vessel at this time.

What do you mean by markings?  Also, the external hull configuration does not necessarily indicate the ship's technology level.  Many of the TNG era Mirandas look externally equivalent to their 23rd century counterparts, but are clearly carrying updated weapons.

[candle_86]

the white chevron, for 1 second on the battle scene the connie hull displays the gold chevron, which was replaced even on newer connies with a white chevron thats my point

Also the hull markings on your Mirinida are diffrent, the Reliants where on the bar and there red tails where straight and longer like a connies but not as long, those hull markings are slanted to a point like the defiants

[candle_86]

though the really odd part is the yorktown had a white chevron not the gold one, only the Enterprise had a gold chevron even at this time, so I could go so far as to say the Engineering hull from the Original Enterprise fought at wolf359

[knightstorm]

the white chevron, for 1 second on the battle scene the connie hull displays the gold chevron, which was replaced even on newer connies with a white chevron thats my point

Maybe the color was a trick of the light?  Maybe the gold chevron had some sort of special meaning that wasn't stated?

[candle_86]

the speical meaning is its the Enterprise NCC-1701 lol its the only refit connie with a gold chevron

[knightstorm]

its the only refit connie with a gold chevron

And how many refit Constitutions have you seen in canon?

[candle_86]

Yorktown and the A both have white chevrons, we only know of 3 refit connies in Canon that we have seen. Though sevral are directly or indirectly shown

[Nemesis]

the speical meaning is its the Enterprise NCC-1701 lol its the only refit connie with a gold chevron

The only one?  Or the only one seen on screen? 

though the really odd part is the yorktown had a white chevron not the gold one, only the Enterprise had a gold chevron even at this time, so I could go so far as to say the Engineering hull from the Original Enterprise fought at wolf359

As I recall in STIII Kirk used the self destruct. There should not have been any major salvagable parts. 

The gold chevron could easily be a unit citation and other ships could have earned it as well.

[candle_86]

but its never stated, so in pure canon we must assume the hull of the 1701 was at wolf359, though only paramount could ever explain that

[Nemesis]

but its never stated, so in pure canon we must assume the hull of the 1701 was at wolf359, though only paramount could ever explain that

I assume you mean the chevron?  It is never stated that it is unique to the Enterprise either.  All that can be said is that it appears a Constitution engineering hull was at Wolf.  It could be a similar hull from a different ship class.