Topic: this has bugged me for years

[candle_86]

Why was the entire consitition fleet mothballed? The design couldn't have been that hard to upgrade, Oberth class ships are older as noticed with there 3 digit registry, putting them very old. Miriandia class registries also are right around Consistion class's and those vessels still serve and are smaller and more cramped. What was the reason besides a dramtic finish to Star Trek Six was there to retire the Consistion Fleet, I mean the Enterprise A was refit in 2286 and mothballed in 2293 that doesnt make sense at all. Also why are constellation class ships retired from fleet duty.

[Lieutenant_Q]

The Oberth has lower registry numbers not because the ships are older than the Constitution, but rather they, like the first few Mirandas, come from a time when Starfleet batched their hull numbers.  The "book" used for Star Trek I - III was Franz Joseph's Technical Manual, which of course is also one of the books used for Starfleet Battles.  After what I believe was a very private tiff between Joseph and Roddenberry, Roddenberry called the entire book non-canon and proceeded to change some of the stuff that was in that book.  (If you start to look at what Roddenberry did towards the end of his life, you have to wonder if he started suffering from some dementia of sorts)

In the Technical Manual, Starfleet assigned the hull numbers 1700 - (if you believe the number built) 1799 to the Constitution (and her subclasses)  Even if the ship wasn't built, the hull number was reserved for it.  Similar batches were done for Saladin Class Destroyers (500-599) and Federation Class Dreadnoughts (2100-2150).  After Star Trek IV, (and subsequently TNG) Starfleet stopped batching the numbers and just assigned what ever number was next sequentially, although some ships were still batched, especially if near the prototype of the class. (74205 was the registry for the Defiant, while 74210 was the registry for the Valiant)

While Legacy has the Miranda as a TOS refit, it is the only source that I know of that places the Miranda as that age.  I personally view the Miranda as a Cruiser class that was intended to eventually supplant the Constitution, not operate along side of it.  The Oberth I also tag as a relatively new class, which like the Miranda was intended to replace (and did replace) the old Hermes Class Scout ships.  As the Miranda would have been the next replacement cruiser, its hull numbers were batched in the 1800-1899 range. while the Oberth, replacing the Hermes, received the 600-699 batch.  With the debut of the Excelsior and Constellation, Starfleet had to move away from the pre-set batch numbers, and just assign the next available number.

[knightstorm]

Where in Star Trek 6 did it say that they were mothballing the entire constitution class?  As for why the oberths are still in service in the 24th century, part of the reason might be that they weren't designed for the sort of front line duties that the Constitution class was, and were more efficient in their particular niche than a converted constitution class would have been.  While we never saw a constitution in TNG , this is mainly because Roddenbery and his successors wanted the new series to not be stuck in TOS' shadow.  The Stargazer was orignally supposed to be a constitution class ship, but the producers changed their mind at the last minute.  Its possible that they were still in service at that time.  This is evident by the fact that Mirandas and D-7s were still in service in TNG and DS9.  In fact the TMP era Soyuz Class variant of the Miranda Class USS Bozeman which appeared in the episode Cause and Effect was apparently modernized and took part in the battle against the Borg cube in First Contact.  Also, the Excelsiors might have replaced the constitutions in production.  As a result, over time the class would have been phased out of service as older ships were retired.  Even with maintanance, and upgrades, its conceivable that the ships would have eventually been retired due to wear and tear in the 70 years between ST6 and Encounter at Far point.

[candle_86]

but if you look at systems aboard both Oberth and Mirindia class's there systems match a Consistion refit. So a Connie would have the excact same system layout, and we do not know when the isolieaner computer came out so you could speculate they still use duotronics though refined still in the new excelscior, though in 2294 aboard the EnterpriseB we see what looks like an early isolineaer computer, so excelscior could have been the test bed it did use alot of new technology, also if Mirandia was set to replace the Consistition then what purpose was there to bring the Excelscrior fleet online period. Not only that but Mirandia's lack the room for the science labs and weapons systems of a consitition class, so it couldnt have been the replacement heavy crusiser, nor could have constellation which seems built purley for combat, with 4 naccells and 4 forward firing tubes each capable for 2 shots giving a total of 8 photons per volley forward, Constellation seems more like a ship built for war, which doesnt make sense, as the ship was still undergoing trials when the Kitomer Accords happened, so why would Starfleet keep the ship operational afterwards.

Also it has been theorized that the Enterprise A was a newly built consitition not a refit yorkshire as Star Trek IV puts the Yorkshire adrift in deep space, and unlikly to the new ship. So why would a brand new Heavy Cruiser be scrapped just 7 years later? Remember it was set to be scrapped before they knew of the Kitomer Accords, so Starfleet was phasing out the entire fleet, but it makes no sense to build a new one to phase it out 7 years later.

Also arguing the class was old, the Excelscrior class was launched in 2285 and served upto 2380 we know, thats 95 years, Miridina class's we saw as easly as 2285 but given Reliant's status and the mission ect you can speculate the class was introduced in the late 2270's at the latest, putting that class at 100 years or older and still in fleet duties. OBerth no clue but at least 100 years given we saw Grissiom meaning Oberth was launched earlier than that. But the Consitition was scrapped after 53 years, it doesnt make sense for Starfleet to do that given there use of other ships for far longer. USS Hattaway was commisioned in 2285 according to her plaque though the Constelation was still undergoing cirtifications in 2293 but that puts that class also at 90 years in service, as last time we saw them was in DS9, so 2375, it doesnt fit to retire the consitition or it doesnt fit to keep these 23rd century ships working into the late 24th, you decide.


As for the argument just the A was retired, it was 7 years out of refit or construction no one was very clear on this ever from Star Trek we get two seperate histroyies one was she is Yorktown and one she was an a ship awaiting commission, but either way if they retire a ship that was refit and from what we can tell in STV almost totally rebuilt again with massive systems upgrades given the Warp Cores and decks dont match the Original Enterprise, refit it would have been another extensive enteral refit so why retire it?

[knightstorm]

The major plot of Star Trek 6 revolved around disarmament talks with the Klingons.  This would have restricted the number of constitution class ships available, and a ship which just received major battle damage like the A would have been first on the cutting block.  As for the point I made about the ships being old, you misread my post.  I stated that it is possible that instead of building new Constitution class ships that the federation was building Excelsiors instead.  The Excelsiors, Oberths, and Mirandas which appeared in TNG were not the same ships which appeared in the movies, but were built later.  If Excelsiors replaced constitutions in production, than as older ships retired, they would have been replaced with Excelsiors.  As for the point I made about the Oberths and Mirandas being more efficient in their roles, they were specifically built for different jobs than the constitution class.  The Oberths were designed as science vessels.  While we didn't get a tour of the Grissom, it was probably better equipped for scientific survey than the Enterprise was.  Also, a Constitution class starship circa 2293 had a crew of 300.  Oberths presumably had a smaller crew requirement.  Likewise, the Miranda class ships were probably also more efficient in their role than a Constitution class would have been.

[candle_86]

except kirk makes the comment they are 3 weeks from retirement and the enterprise is to be mothballed with them. This is before the battle of Kitomier before they even meet Gorkon

[knightstorm]

except kirk makes the comment they are 3 weeks from retirement and the enterprise is to be mothballed with them. This is before the battle of Kitomier before they even meet Gorkon

Kirk didn't make any reference to the ship being retired, only the command crew.

[candle_86]

In 2293, the Enterprise-A was due to be retired along with most of her command crew.

take from here
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701-A%29

and we all know Memory Alpha only deals with excat cannon seen and heard on screen

not to mention EnterpriseB was already being built at the time, she lauched later that year. But to top it off during the domionion war, Starfleet despretly short of ships does not recall any consititions into service, we know the EnterpriseA was mothballed, and she could have been reactivated, I doubt they would scrap her it would go against starfleets love of making famous ships into functional museme ships. Yet we never see a single Consitition in the fleet, and you may say the last refit was 100 years before the dominion war, that doesnt mean they couldn't have used it as a troop transport, without a full crew and given the max capicity is about 800 I belive it could have easily fit that role for a light troop transport, yet none of the mothball fleet was recalled. Then again they still have yet to explain why the engineering section of the Enterprise was at Wolf 359 yet either. They used the blown up model they made for ST III and put it in the debris field, but the markings on the hull, blast patter, and even the starfleet emblem all point to the NCC-1701 yet no one yet has told me why they had the engineering hull at wolf 359

[knightstorm]

In 2293, the Enterprise-A was due to be retired along with most of her command crew.

take from here
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701-A%29

and we all know Memory Alpha only deals with excat cannon seen and heard on screen

not to mention EnterpriseB was already being built at the time, she lauched later that year. But to top it off during the domionion war, Starfleet despretly short of ships does not recall any consititions into service, we know the EnterpriseA was mothballed, and she could have been reactivated, I doubt they would scrap her it would go against starfleets love of making famous ships into functional museme ships. Yet we never see a single Consitition in the fleet, and you may say the last refit was 100 years before the dominion war, that doesnt mean they couldn't have used it as a troop transport, without a full crew and given the max capicity is about 800 I belive it could have easily fit that role for a light troop transport, yet none of the mothball fleet was recalled. Then again they still have yet to explain why the engineering section of the Enterprise was at Wolf 359 yet either. They used the blown up model they made for ST III and put it in the debris field, but the markings on the hull, blast patter, and even the starfleet emblem all point to the NCC-1701 yet no one yet has told me why they had the engineering hull at wolf 359

1. Memory Alpha is a wiki, its not 100% reliable
2. There was no reference to the Enterprise being retired until the very end of the film which is odd if the ship was "due to be retired"
3. The B could have been named Enterprise while under construction
4. It is possible there may have been a few Constitutions in service in the TNG era as it was never confirmed in canon that the class had been entirely retired.
5. As I stated earlier, one of the reasons that the class was not shown in the TNG era was a production decision made early during TNGs run when there was concern about making sure the new series could develop its own identity.

[candle_86]

yes the writers wrote it off, but without giving a valid reason in cannon for doing so.

[Kreeargh]

In 2286 there were only 2 or 3 Constitution class TOS ships still in service, my guess there was only 1 "active" starfleet front line vessle and it got the refit due to kirk and the crews request. My guess the few cony designs that were left  other than enterprise ended up in the starfleet Smithonian, or got transferd to tug duty.

[knightstorm]

yes the writers wrote it off, but without giving a valid reason in cannon for doing so.

They never explicitly stated that there were no constitution class ships in service during the TNG era, so they din't have to give a reason for not showing one.

[candle_86]

In 2286 there were only 2 or 3 Constitution class TOS ships still in service, my guess there was only 1 "active" starfleet front line vessle and it got the refit due to kirk and the crews request. My guess the few cony designs that were left  other than enterprise ended up in the starfleet Smithonian, or got transferd to tug duty.

then explain the fleet charts that Colonel West showed the president, there was a few connies on there

[Corbomite]

This is the part I don't get...


The head of Starfleet said in ST3 that the Enterprise was twenty years old and was to be decommissioned, this just after a major overhaul a few years earlier. Kirk and Co. then stole it and blew it up (saving Starfleet the trouble of dismantling it) and were gone few a few months (possibly up to eighteen) on Vulcan. In that time Starfleet managed to forgive Kirk, sequester a fleetdock, find resources and staff and build and exact replica (Enterprise A) of a thirty five year old (or more?) design that they were planning to retire anyway, all so they could decommission it a few years later.

[knightstorm]

This is the part I don't get...


The head of Starfleet said in ST3 that the Enterprise was twenty years old and was to be decommissioned, this just after a major overhaul a few years earlier. Kirk and Co. then stole it and blew it up (saving Starfleet the trouble of dismantling it) and were gone few a few months (possibly up to eighteen) on Vulcan. In that time Starfleet managed to forgive Kirk, sequester a fleetdock, find resources and staff and build and exact replica (Enterprise A) of a thirty five year old (or more?) design that they were planning to retire anyway, all so they could decommission it a few years later.

Well, the Enterprise being 20 years old was a scripting error as it violated both previous and subsequent cannon.  I think the decision to retire her in ST3 was more about the physical age of the ship combined with subsequent battle damage.  From what I have As for the A, the explanation given in both the TNG technical manual as well as interviews with the STIV staff was that the A was a recently built Constitution class that had its name changed.  Also, it wasn't an exact replica, as pointed out in STV, its internal layout was different.  A more important reason for the events of 3 was that the ILM crew hated working with the Enterprise model, so they planned to dump it in favor of the Excelsior which had been designed to be easier to film.  The idea was leaked, and proved unpopular with fans, so they dropped it in favor of another Constitution. 

[candle_86]

This is the part I don't get...


The head of Starfleet said in ST3 that the Enterprise was twenty years old and was to be decommissioned, this just after a major overhaul a few years earlier. Kirk and Co. then stole it and blew it up (saving Starfleet the trouble of dismantling it) and were gone few a few months (possibly up to eighteen) on Vulcan. In that time Starfleet managed to forgive Kirk, sequester a fleetdock, find resources and staff and build and exact replica (Enterprise A) of a thirty five year old (or more?) design that they were planning to retire anyway, all so they could decommission it a few years later.

battle damage, engineering was a mess, the photon topedo launcher was a mess, the computer was damaged, massive structual damage to the entire ship.

[Nemesis]

The plans to scrap the Enterprise could easily have been connected with the earlier upgrade. 

Assuming it was the first prototype for an upgraded design then design flaws might have shown in the actual use of the ship that were not seen earlier.  Design flaws that were impractical (or too expensive) to retroactively fix but which could be done in a subsequent model (1701A for example) or later upgrades.  Design flaws that might well cause the ship to under perform or to be extremely vulnerable to failures in combat.

Thus it is possible to justify the scraping decision.  Admittedly I don't recall any reason beyond age (and a faulty age based on the Pike Captaincy) being given.

[Corbomite]

This is the part I don't get...


The head of Starfleet said in ST3 that the Enterprise was twenty years old and was to be decommissioned, this just after a major overhaul a few years earlier. Kirk and Co. then stole it and blew it up (saving Starfleet the trouble of dismantling it) and were gone few a few months (possibly up to eighteen) on Vulcan. In that time Starfleet managed to forgive Kirk, sequester a fleetdock, find resources and staff and build and exact replica (Enterprise A) of a thirty five year old (or more?) design that they were planning to retire anyway, all so they could decommission it a few years later.

battle damage, engineering was a mess, the photon topedo launcher was a mess, the computer was damaged, massive structual damage to the entire ship.

Yes, I understand why they wanted to scrap the old ship. I don't understand why they went backwards just to placate an old warhorse.

[knightstorm]

Yes, I understand why they wanted to scrap the old ship. I don't understand why they went backwards just to placate an old warhorse.

The A wasn't a backwards design.  It also wasn't built to "placate an old war horse" It had recently been built under a different name and was state of the art.  The only ship more advanced was the Excelsior.

[Corbomite]

Advanced? Funny, I remember it being a POS and Scotty saying as much. I guess I'll have to suffer through ST5 again to find out.

[Nemesis]

The Excelsior was arguably a failure.  It was supposed to demonstrate the trans warp technology.  If it had succeeded then why did not the Enterprise C through E have the technology?  To me it has all the ear marks of a failed prototype.  Scotty expected it to fail which is why he criticized it, TNG proves he was right.  Any later Excelsior designs presumably went back to warp engines.

[candle_86]

they all did, even the original excelscior was refit by STVI with normal warp engines we can see that much on her nacells. And the A wasnt a peice of junk, it was freash from refit/construction STIV and and sources make this hard to really figure out, but the A was ordered to Neranda III without having a full crew and still in peices, the ship wasn't near ready to launch.

[Nemesis]

And the A wasnt a peice of junk

I believe that Corbomite was referring to the Excelsior.

[knightstorm]

Advanced? Funny, I remember it being a POS and Scotty saying as much. I guess I'll have to suffer through ST5 again to find out.

The ship was suffering from glitches in its new presumably more advanced computer.

[Corbomite]

Advanced? Funny, I remember it being a POS and Scotty saying as much. I guess I'll have to suffer through ST5 again to find out.

The ship was suffering from glitches in its new presumably more advanced computer.

Sounds like a certain game series we all know and love... 

[knightstorm]

Advanced? Funny, I remember it being a POS and Scotty saying as much. I guess I'll have to suffer through ST5 again to find out.

The ship was suffering from glitches in its new presumably more advanced computer.

Sounds like a certain game series we all know and love... 

Taldren did go for the movie era look in the stock game for a reason

[Storvick_XC]

The Excelsior was arguably a failure.  It was supposed to demonstrate the trans warp technology.  If it had succeeded then why did not the Enterprise C through E have the technology?  To me it has all the ear marks of a failed prototype.  Scotty expected it to fail which is why he criticized it, TNG proves he was right.  Any later Excelsior designs presumably went back to warp engines.

Remember in Star Trek III Scotty took parts out of the Excelsior so that it would break down when it gave chase to Kirk and crew stealing the Enterprise. Thats one way of thinking it was a failure. Scotty was in charge of the transwarp drive on the Excelsior when it was being built. He gave the parts to Kirk but I guess they never turned the parts back over to Starfleet

[Nemesis]

The Excelsior was arguably a failure.  It was supposed to demonstrate the trans warp technology.  If it had succeeded then why did not the Enterprise C through E have the technology?  To me it has all the ear marks of a failed prototype.  Scotty expected it to fail which is why he criticized it, TNG proves he was right.  Any later Excelsior designs presumably went back to warp engines.

Remember in Star Trek III Scotty took parts out of the Excelsior so that it would break down when it gave chase to Kirk and crew stealing the Enterprise. Thats one way of thinking it was a failure. Scotty was in charge of the transwarp drive on the Excelsior when it was being built. He gave the parts to Kirk but I guess they never turned the parts back over to Starfleet

It has been a long time since I saw that particular movie but I was under the impression that Scotty was not involved with the Excelsior and was against it.  That he was able to get a tour (and freedom to sabotage) based on his stature as Starfleets best Chief Engineer.

[Sirgod]

The Excelsior was arguably a failure.  It was supposed to demonstrate the trans warp technology.  If it had succeeded then why did not the Enterprise C through E have the technology?  To me it has all the ear marks of a failed prototype.  Scotty expected it to fail which is why he criticized it, TNG proves he was right.  Any later Excelsior designs presumably went back to warp engines.

Dude we all know from the last movie, the reason Transwarp didn't work was because of the lack of Red Matter, and Isolating Scotty long enough to work it out.

<ducks>

Stephen

[Storvick_XC]

The Excelsior was arguably a failure.  It was supposed to demonstrate the trans warp technology.  If it had succeeded then why did not the Enterprise C through E have the technology?  To me it has all the ear marks of a failed prototype.  Scotty expected it to fail which is why he criticized it, TNG proves he was right.  Any later Excelsior designs presumably went back to warp engines.

Remember in Star Trek III Scotty took parts out of the Excelsior so that it would break down when it gave chase to Kirk and crew stealing the Enterprise. Thats one way of thinking it was a failure. Scotty was in charge of the transwarp drive on the Excelsior when it was being built. He gave the parts to Kirk but I guess they never turned the parts back over to Starfleet

It has been a long time since I saw that particular movie but I was under the impression that Scotty was not involved with the Excelsior and was against it.  That he was able to get a tour (and freedom to sabotage) based on his stature as Starfleets best Chief Engineer.

2285 – Promoted to captain, oversaw test of transwarp drive for U.S.S. Excelsior under Capt. Styles  (from the Offical Star Trek site on the Bio of Scotty)

[knightstorm]

The Excelsior was arguably a failure.  It was supposed to demonstrate the trans warp technology.  If it had succeeded then why did not the Enterprise C through E have the technology?  To me it has all the ear marks of a failed prototype.  Scotty expected it to fail which is why he criticized it, TNG proves he was right.  Any later Excelsior designs presumably went back to warp engines.

Dude we all know from the last movie, the reason Transwarp didn't work was because of the lack of Red Matter, and Isolating Scotty long enough to work it out.

<ducks>

Stephen

I thought the TROST explanation is that the ship didn't have a propeller.  Or maybe it was because the warp nacelles were not balanced in natural gravity.  Or maybe transwarp only works when there's a supernova capable of threatening the entire galaxy.  Possibly, you have to fly into a black hole to travel through time and create a lightning storm in order to trigger it.

[Sirgod]

I love it Knightstorm. Good points.

Stephen

[knightstorm]

I forgot the most important technological innovations in TROST's SR universe.   The ship needs water turbines, and tailfins on the nacelles!

[Age]

Why was the entire consitition fleet mothballed? The design couldn't have been that hard to upgrade, Oberth class ships are older as noticed with there 3 digit registry, putting them very old. Miriandia class registries also are right around Consistion class's and those vessels still serve and are smaller and more cramped. What was the reason besides a dramtic finish to Star Trek Six was there to retire the Consistion Fleet, I mean the Enterprise A was refit in 2286 and mothballed in 2293 that doesnt make sense at all. Also why are constellation class ships retired from fleet duty.

The Enterprise A was not refit it was competely new ship with warp core instead of coil which the refitted one had before it crashed into Genisis.Star Trek 3 The Search for Spock.I do agree with you as why didn't you see them use the most popular ship of them all as you saw all the others.I guess they just wanted to get those next gen fans to forget about the original cast."Those Butchers Charelton Heston Planet of the Apes".


I beleive that they were being replaced by the Miranda class as they were cheaper to run and operate than the Constition A Class.

[candle_86]

cheaper but not as much space

[Age]

The reason I would assume is so that Starfleet can build more Excelsior class ships to go further out and do exploration.Starfleet didn't need the massive exspensive CA like the Enterprise A in service.

[Nemesis]

The reason I would assume is so that Starfleet can build more Excelsior class ships to go further out and do exploration.Starfleet didn't need the massive exspensive CA like the Enterprise A in service.

Different designs for different purposes.  One could be equipped for the long range exploration while the other is for short to medium range.

[Age]

The reason I would assume is so that Starfleet can build more Excelsior class ships to go further out and do exploration.Starfleet didn't need the massive exspensive CA like the Enterprise A in service.

Different designs for different purposes.  One could be equipped for the long range exploration while the other is for short to medium range.

Yes exactly as the Miranda fullfills the role where the Constition A use to however a few could be kept in reserve for diplomatic use only.

[candle_86]

a Miranda doesnt have the enternal hull space of a Connie, also a Connie has more room for science. It would make the smarter choice.

[knightstorm]

a Miranda doesnt have the enternal hull space of a Connie, also a Connie has more room for science. It would make the smarter choice.

But the Excelsior does.  Starfleet adopted a class which could perform the Constitutions role better.  Relegating the ships to secondary duties was a waste of resources when they had the Mirandas which could do the job just as well.

[candle_86]

depends on the job, Connies would make better long range transports, could be outfited for deep space scientific study with more labs than tradtional while removing weaponry. A test platform, many uses left for the hull. Also they brought online other ships like the constellation with similar hull space, but why do so if the connie is slightly larger and already built?

[knightstorm]

depends on the job, Connies would make better long range transports, could be outfited for deep space scientific study with more labs than traditional while removing weaponry. A test platform, many uses left for the hull. Also they brought online other ships like the constellation with similar hull space, but why do so if the connie is slightly larger and already built?

The Constitutions couldn't do those jobs better than an excelsior, as for building other ships like the constellation, my guess would probably be operating "cost."  For starters, in Star Trek VI, Enterprise A had a crew of 300.  This number is over 100 lower than in TOS, however, I do not know if that is because of automation, or if it had to do with the fact that the Enterprise was just supposed to meet Gorkon and escort him to earth as opposed to a long duration cruise.  Presumably smaller ships would have smaller crew requirements.  Additionally a smaller ships are more flexible, as they can be maintained in smaller yards, and be in more places at once.

[Age]

depends on the job, Connies would make better long range transports, could be outfited for deep space scientific study with more labs than tradtional while removing weaponry. A test platform, many uses left for the hull. Also they brought online other ships like the constellation with similar hull space, but why do so if the connie is slightly larger and already built?

What would be the point in that though as knightstorm has pointed out that the Excelsior is far superior ship campared to the Old Ironsides not Connies.We really will never know as I am just assuming this.I would gather this would be the reason if you take modern navel history as an examble.

The Connie refers to the USS Constallation and the Constition is OldIronside as known in the US Navy.The Enterprise is the big E.

[candle_86]

but old iron side is still on the US Naval registry as a Naval Vessel and kept war ready, though I highly doubt it would ever be called to war. Also cost wouldnt be a factor in this time period kirk states very clearly they no longer use money, so does picard, i would assume federation credits then are used with dealings with non federation speicies but given that the federation has its own dilitium processing facilities and most likly mining facilities upkeep to run the vessles wouldnt be that large. Also we know Starfleet brought the constellation online as early as 2285 according to the USS Hattaway, but the vessel is nearly as large. Another thing by the 2360's starfleet operates lighter ships much larger than a connie, in a lighter duty capacity. So size and cost wouldn't factor in to be honest. The Connie wouldn't be affected by the Kitomer accords it wasnt a war ship it was classified as an Exploratory cruiser, but this might be why the soyuz class was decomissioned. Also by the time the A is retired it is 7 years old, and we only know canonicly of one Exclescior vessel online yet, so why retire the fleet. Also given the tensions with the romulans that lead up to the tomed incident retiring a front line ship also makes less sense given the lack of Excelscior class hulls at the time. Even by the 2360's the Excelsciors we see appear to be built from sumation in the 2300's given the 5 digit registry and not the tradition 4 digit of the 2200's, as can be refranced with by 2285 we where only up to the 2000's in registry numbers, so a sh*t to 5 digits had to occur at some point in the 2300's. Also if all ships where relcassified with the new NCC numbers that still doesnt tell us when they where brought online but from the proof we have only the Excelscior was active in 2293. With the EnterpriseB in 2294 making the 2nd offically commissioned ship. To abdon the connie at this time would not make sense in the slightest. That would leave the Federation 2 Excelscior class vessels in 2294 and alot of mirinida's oberths and constellations

[knightstorm]

but old iron side is still on the US Naval registry as a Naval Vessel and kept war ready, though I highly doubt it would ever be called to war. Also cost wouldnt be a factor in this time period kirk states very clearly they no longer use money, so does picard, i would assume federation credits then are used with dealings with non federation speicies but given that the federation has its own dilitium processing facilities and most likly mining facilities upkeep to run the vessles wouldnt be that large. Also we know Starfleet brought the constellation online as early as 2285 according to the USS Hattaway, but the vessel is nearly as large. Another thing by the 2360's starfleet operates lighter ships much larger than a connie, in a lighter duty capacity. So size and cost wouldn't factor in to be honest. The Connie wouldn't be affected by the Kitomer accords it wasnt a war ship it was classified as an Exploratory cruiser, but this might be why the soyuz class was decomissioned. Also by the time the A is retired it is 7 years old, and we only know canonicly of one Exclescior vessel online yet, so why retire the fleet. Also given the tensions with the romulans that lead up to the tomed incident retiring a front line ship also makes less sense given the lack of Excelscior class hulls at the time. Even by the 2360's the Excelsciors we see appear to be built from sumation in the 2300's given the 5 digit registry and not the tradition 4 digit of the 2200's, as can be refranced with by 2285 we where only up to the 2000's in registry numbers, so a sh*t to 5 digits had to occur at some point in the 2300's. Also if all ships where relcassified with the new NCC numbers that still doesnt tell us when they where brought online but from the proof we have only the Excelscior was active in 2293. With the EnterpriseB in 2294 making the 2nd offically commissioned ship. To abdon the connie at this time would not make sense in the slightest. That would leave the Federation 2 Excelscior class vessels in 2294 and alot of mirinida's oberths and constellations

I put cost in quotations for a reason.  While they may not be using a money economy, building, and crewing ships takes resources.  Starfleet is only going to have a limited number of personnel that can be deployed on a starship.  The federation does have limitations in its production capacity for constructing and maintaining those ships.  No federation ship is a warship.  Due to its idealism, the federation doesn't use that term.  Even the Defiant class is officially classified as an escort.  The treaty being negotiated in STVI probably did place a limit on the number of Constitutions, that's why there was that whole line about mothballing Starfleet.  As for the A, it recieved heavy battle damage, so it was first on the chopping block.  Also, despite what some idiot wrote on memory alpha, at no point in the film do they state that they are retiring the entire constitution class from service.  Registration numbers are meaningless, they were chosen without ryme or reason.  Also, I find it odd that while you start a thread complaining about there being no Constitutions in service TNG era (something which was never confirmed canonically), you seem so interested in jumping on the fact that only one Excelsior was confirmed in service canonically as of 2293.  Also, how do you know what the B was named when construction started?

[candle_86]

we do not, but it is stated on screen the A was set to be retired after the completion of retriving gorkon. Being brand new and with no battle damage what reason would there be to decomission the ship.

Also it is infered in sevral points that the only constition is a museme ship that picard once visited, and seeing as every other old dinosaur shows up there is no reason to assume the Connie is in service. The only time we saw any part of a connie was Wolf359 but seeing as it was just a damaged engineering hull and it was using 23rd century hull markings, the ship if it is a connie was scrambled into the battle likly from a salvage yard or possibly also as a museme ship. Now of course we know the reasons for the markings are the fact its the Enterprise damaged model from STIII, its still cannon which means the only connie there also was likly not an active starship. Also if there where active by the TNG era still it could also be concluded the hulls would have been used during the Domion War as they are more capable at combat than a Mirindia and if they where already refit for the era they should have seen combat.

[knightstorm]

we do not, but it is stated on screen the A was set to be retired after the completion of retriving gorkon. Being brand new and with no battle damage what reason would there be to decomission the ship.

Also it is infered in sevral points that the only constition is a museme ship that picard once visited, and seeing as every other old dinosaur shows up there is no reason to assume the Connie is in service. The only time we saw any part of a connie was Wolf359 but seeing as it was just a damaged engineering hull and it was using 23rd century hull markings, the ship if it is a connie was scrambled into the battle likly from a salvage yard or possibly also as a museme ship. Now of course we know the reasons for the markings are the fact its the Enterprise damaged model from STIII, its still cannon which means the only connie there also was likly not an active starship. Also if there where active by the TNG era still it could also be concluded the hulls would have been used during the Domion War as they are more capable at combat than a Mirindia and if they where already refit for the era they should have seen combat.

No.  They did not state that the ship was scheduled to be retired at the beginning of the film.  They only made reference to the command staff.  Furthermore, the dialogue in the film itself between Spock and Valeris indicates that he was supposed to continue in service after the command staff retired.  Picard may have been referring to a pre-refit type constitution, as it was a representation of the TOS bridge.  Once more, how do you know that there weren't any Constitutions active during the dominion war.  Remember, the production crew didn't feature Constitutions outside of (T&T) because they wanted the spinoffs to escape TOS' shadow.  Considering that in 2267, there were only a dozen ships after over 20 years in service, and assuming that production ceased in favor of the Excelsior class in the 2290s, there also may not have been that many hulls still in usable condition by the time the dominion war started.

[candle_86]

well then explain the connie hull carring the markers of the 23rd century though, why would the only connie be obsolete, unless you consider the only ones left where in salvage yards, and given the hull markings we can then state they had to have been retired by the 24th century. Also leaving the Connie behind to break away from TOS makes sense yes, but to abdon a class of vessel that was rebuilt in the 2270's arguably the space frames are almost completely new, and we know the A was new, so Connies where still be built at this time. There is no good reason then to retire the hulls.

[knightstorm]

well then explain the connie hull carring the markers of the 23rd century though, why would the only connie be obsolete

I don't quite understand what you're asking, can you rephrase it?

[candle_86]

im saying if the connie was still active then why would the only one we see in the debris field be carring hull markings from the 23rd century in the 24th century. Its more than likly it was pulled from a Salvage yard, phasers recharged and photons added back aboard and rushed to meet the borg, as any ship would be useful. But that doesnt mean she was operational as a standard vessel at this time.

[knightstorm]

im saying if the connie was still active then why would the only one we see in the debris field be carring hull markings from the 23rd century in the 24th century. Its more than likly it was pulled from a Salvage yard, phasers recharged and photons added back aboard and rushed to meet the borg, as any ship would be useful. But that doesnt mean she was operational as a standard vessel at this time.

What do you mean by markings?  Also, the external hull configuration does not necessarily indicate the ship's technology level.  Many of the TNG era Mirandas look externally equivalent to their 23rd century counterparts, but are clearly carrying updated weapons.

[candle_86]

the white chevron, for 1 second on the battle scene the connie hull displays the gold chevron, which was replaced even on newer connies with a white chevron thats my point

Also the hull markings on your Mirinida are diffrent, the Reliants where on the bar and there red tails where straight and longer like a connies but not as long, those hull markings are slanted to a point like the defiants

[candle_86]

though the really odd part is the yorktown had a white chevron not the gold one, only the Enterprise had a gold chevron even at this time, so I could go so far as to say the Engineering hull from the Original Enterprise fought at wolf359

[knightstorm]

the white chevron, for 1 second on the battle scene the connie hull displays the gold chevron, which was replaced even on newer connies with a white chevron thats my point

Maybe the color was a trick of the light?  Maybe the gold chevron had some sort of special meaning that wasn't stated?

[candle_86]

the speical meaning is its the Enterprise NCC-1701 lol its the only refit connie with a gold chevron

[knightstorm]

its the only refit connie with a gold chevron

And how many refit Constitutions have you seen in canon?

[candle_86]

Yorktown and the A both have white chevrons, we only know of 3 refit connies in Canon that we have seen. Though sevral are directly or indirectly shown

[Nemesis]

the speical meaning is its the Enterprise NCC-1701 lol its the only refit connie with a gold chevron

The only one?  Or the only one seen on screen? 

though the really odd part is the yorktown had a white chevron not the gold one, only the Enterprise had a gold chevron even at this time, so I could go so far as to say the Engineering hull from the Original Enterprise fought at wolf359

As I recall in STIII Kirk used the self destruct. There should not have been any major salvagable parts. 

The gold chevron could easily be a unit citation and other ships could have earned it as well.

[candle_86]

but its never stated, so in pure canon we must assume the hull of the 1701 was at wolf359, though only paramount could ever explain that

[Nemesis]

but its never stated, so in pure canon we must assume the hull of the 1701 was at wolf359, though only paramount could ever explain that

I assume you mean the chevron?  It is never stated that it is unique to the Enterprise either.  All that can be said is that it appears a Constitution engineering hull was at Wolf.  It could be a similar hull from a different ship class. 

[candle_86]

im nitpicking the writers and art department and catching there mistakes let me do it

[Corbomite]

The Defiant is a war ship. It was stated that it was specifically designed to fight the Borg. Remember many of the crew were dismayed at the spartan facilities on the ship, most notably the sickbay and crew quarters.


Picard's line from "Relics" is
                             Picard  - "Constitution class."
                             Scotty - "Ah, you're familiar with them?"
                             Picard  - "There's one in the fleet museum."


All this proves is there is one in the fleet museum. Voyager was also in the museum (or at least the Ready Room) according to the future Janeway in Endgame, but I doubt Intrepids were out of service by her time. BTW, they made such a big deal about Voyagers bio-circuitry, but we never hear much about it in later ship design. Was it abandoned?

[candle_86]

well its in promethus, also. Not sure about the Sovergin but a movie isnt much fun if its about chasing a computer problem

[marstone]

well its in promethus, also. Not sure about the Sovergin but a movie isnt much fun if its about chasing a computer problem

Chasing a computer problem can make a great movie.  Heck if the computer that has the problem is in control of a manufacturing plant that makes killer robots, and mega defense systems for the world.  It could be a good plot device.

Heck throw Micheal Bay as director and maybe even Megan Fox as Heroine in distress and a mega block buster in the making.

[knightstorm]

The Defiant is a war ship. It was stated that it was specifically designed to fight the Borg. Remember many of the crew were dismayed at the spartan facilities on the ship, most notably the sickbay and crew quarters.


Picard's line from "Relics" is
                             Picard  - "Constitution class."
                             Scotty - "Ah, you're familiar with them?"
                             Picard  - "There's one in the fleet museum."


All this proves is there is one in the fleet museum. Voyager was also in the museum (or at least the Ready Room) according to the future Janeway in Endgame, but I doubt Intrepids were out of service by her time. BTW, they made such a big deal about Voyagers bio-circuitry, but we never hear much about it in later ship design. Was it abandoned?

The Defiant may be a warship, but the federation didn't call it that.  Its official classification was as an escort.  As for the bioneural circutry, we didn't hear much about it on voyager after the novelty wore off in the first season.  It may or may not still be in new construction, we just don't know.

[Corbomite]

And just what is the job of an "escort" (other than the pleasure industry defintion)? Other words you could use are bodyguard, protect and safeguard. They all mean the same thing with the implication that combat is in their primary job description.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

The Defiant is a war ship. It was stated that it was specifically designed to fight the Borg. Remember many of the crew were dismayed at the spartan facilities on the ship, most notably the sickbay and crew quarters.


Picard's line from "Relics" is
                             Picard  - "Constitution class."
                             Scotty - "Ah, you're familiar with them?"
                             Picard  - "There's one in the fleet museum."


All this proves is there is one in the fleet museum. Voyager was also in the museum (or at least the Ready Room) according to the future Janeway in Endgame, but I doubt Intrepids were out of service by her time. BTW, they made such a big deal about Voyagers bio-circuitry, but we never hear much about it in later ship design. Was it abandoned?

I would hope they abandonned the gel packs. Who needs circuitry that gets sick?

[candle_86]

And just what is the job of an "escort" (other than the pleasure industry defintion)? Other words you could use are bodyguard, protect and safeguard. They all mean the same thing with the implication that combat is in their primary job description.

An Escort is designed to travel with cruisers and destroyers ect to provide fire support, just like the real navy. It would be used for Diplomatic missions where the probabilty of conflict would be high. Also the Defiant wasnt bought online till the domion threat reared its head, and I would except the ships where short lived, as mass produced vessels, either that or refit to include scientific equipment and removed some teeth

[Corbomite]

An Escort is designed to travel with cruisers and destroyers ect to provide fire support, just like the real navy. It would be used for Diplomatic missions where the probabilty of conflict would be high.

It was a rhetorical question.

Also the Defiant wasnt bought online till the domion threat reared its head...

Only because of design flaws and "reduced Borg threat". Who knows how many were built. We only know of the Defiant and the Valiant.

[Ravok]

An Escort is designed to travel with cruisers and destroyers ect to provide fire support, just like the real navy. It would be used for Diplomatic missions where the probabilty of conflict would be high.

It was a rhetorical question.

Also the Defiant wasn't bought on line till the domion threat reared its head...

Only because of design flaws and "reduced Borg threat". Who knows how many were built. We only know of the Defiant and the Valiant.

 The Defiant didn't come into its own, until they let Worf and the Chief, have fun with it.

 After the fixed the warp overpower issue, and added the ablative Armor, and other Klingon inspired goodies.
 It was one little vicious ship.

 If I remember correctly, they said it had the fire power of a Galaxy Class.
 Which probably made it hugely expensive for its size. That  and the fact it was really only good for war.

 You would have a hell of a time, convincing another Civilization you came upon, that you where on a peaceful mission of exploration, showing up in that little death dealer.

[candle_86]

we know of at least 5. USS Defiant, USS Sao Palo, USS Valiant and 2 unknown Defiant ships chasing the Promethus

[candle_86]

An Escort is designed to travel with cruisers and destroyers ect to provide fire support, just like the real navy. It would be used for Diplomatic missions where the probabilty of conflict would be high.

It was a rhetorical question.

Also the Defiant wasn't bought on line till the domion threat reared its head...

Only because of design flaws and "reduced Borg threat". Who knows how many were built. We only know of the Defiant and the Valiant.

 The Defiant didn't come into its own, until they let Worf and the Chief, have fun with it.

 After the fixed the warp overpower issue, and added the ablative Armor, and other Klingon inspired goodies.
 It was one little vicious ship.

 If I remember correctly, they said it had the fire power of a Galaxy Class.
 Which probably made it hugely expensive for its size. That  and the fact it was really only good for war.

 You would have a hell of a time, convincing another Civilization you came upon, that you where on a peaceful mission of exploration, showing up in that little death dealer.

lol well its like Roman peace, we come in peace as long as your swear your life and your children childrens life otherwise we shoot now

[Ravok]

An Escort is designed to travel with cruisers and destroyers ect to provide fire support, just like the real navy. It would be used for Diplomatic missions where the probabilty of conflict would be high.

It was a rhetorical question.

Also the Defiant wasn't bought on line till the domion threat reared its head...

Only because of design flaws and "reduced Borg threat". Who knows how many were built. We only know of the Defiant and the Valiant.

 The Defiant didn't come into its own, until they let Worf and the Chief, have fun with it.

 After the fixed the warp overpower issue, and added the ablative Armor, and other Klingon inspired goodies.
 It was one little vicious ship.

 If I remember correctly, they said it had the fire power of a Galaxy Class.
 Which probably made it hugely expensive for its size. That  and the fact it was really only good for war.

 You would have a hell of a time, convincing another Civilization you came upon, that you where on a peaceful mission of exploration, showing up in that little death dealer.

lol well its like Roman peace, we come in peace as long as your swear your life and your children childrens life otherwise we shoot now

 

[Age]

Why was the entire consitition fleet mothballed? The design couldn't have been that hard to upgrade, Oberth class ships are older as noticed with there 3 digit registry, putting them very old. Miriandia class registries also are right around Consistion class's and those vessels still serve and are smaller and more cramped. What was the reason besides a dramtic finish to Star Trek Six was there to retire the Consistion Fleet, I mean the Enterprise A was refit in 2286 and mothballed in 2293 that doesnt make sense at all. Also why are constellation class ships retired from fleet duty.

The Enterprise A was not a refit it was newly designed ship with real warp care as it didn't have warp coil.What do you mean by chevrons?Those are delta shield only the Enterprise in TOS had that other ships had their own untll it was adpoted for all StarFleet Ships.I never did see a class Constitution class at Wolf 359.They were all mothballed except maybe a few for diplomatic missions.

We will never know the fate of these ships unless there is TV series set in late 23rd to early 34th century Star Trek.I guess the reason to as they were mothballed is they wanted to bring in some newer designs.We don't know all the ships in Starfleet as they don't show any CLs which can fillfull many duties and tasks.

There as Defiant before the one seen in DS9.

[candle_86]

I would expect the Mirindia/Souyz to be a Light Cruiser firepower match;s a connie almost. Destroyers and under arnt shown, but Starfleet at the time may not have had any. Also the Constelation might also be a Light Cruiser but we have no idea the real firepower of one. Though on the Enterprise is Schematics for the Saladin and Hermes so they where also in the fleet somewhere canonicly just no idea of numbers or hull classification. The Centur also had to have been brought online near this time period given its hull configuratiion. But I still say there isnt a good reason to retire the Connies.