Topic: Question about Warp Drive.

[Sirgod]

The issue at hand, is can warp drive be used within a planets atmosphere.

Now I've seen where no it can't, and then again, I've seen it done.  We have seen where a Starship has to leave the solar system, and then we see the Big E warp right out in a clear blue sky.

So which is it guys?

One reason I ask, is I've long thought about maybe a fan fic, involving the Klingons simply using an unmanned warp sled, cloak into a planets atmosphere, and lay it waste. This seems like an easy way to pretty much eliminate any enemy they may have.

Stephen

[TAnimaL]

going with what we've seen on screen, it seems that warp drive in an atmosphere is doable but not recommended. (insert "Closed course, professional driver" disclaimer here) The most obvious example is ST:IV, when Kirk et. al. did after getting the whales, and it seems to me that they wouldn't have done it if it would hurt the atmosphere (kinda defeats the purpose of getting the whales in the first place). There are probably other examples of doing, and I don't recall anyone saying "never do that." Maybe it's bad for the ship but only mildly affects the atmos?

For your story sake, there's lots of wiggle room. Maybe it ionizes the atmosphere and disrupts comms? A subspace effect that knocks out sensors briefly? Or maybe the Klinks warp sled is designed to maximize the atmosphere damage rather than actually get a ship into warp.

IMHO, unless it's a small planet/moon with atmosphere, the resulting damage would be long term rather than immediate. Sort of like the setup in ST:VI, where Kronos won't be able to support life in (50) years.

[Sirgod]

Interesting. Thanks Animal, you have given me something to think about.

Stephen

[Corbomite]

I would think that an atmosphere would destroy any ship going to warp. After all, the deflector is designed to push minute specks of dust away that would tear a starship apart at warp. Millions of cubic tons of atmosphere seems like it would vaporize the ship pretty fast. What is the coefficient of friction, at say, 512 times the speed of light anyway?

[Nemesis]

I would think that an atmosphere would destroy any ship going to warp. After all, the deflector is designed to push minute specks of dust away that would tear a starship apart at warp. Millions of cubic tons of atmosphere seems like it would vaporize the ship pretty fast. What is the coefficient of friction, at say, 512 times the speed of light anyway?

More recent shows have portrayed it as a "warp bubble" that should drag along that atmosphere. 

[Corbomite]

If the warp bubble can protect against outside influences, why do they need a nav deflector?

[Lieutenant_Q]

For Sub-light maneuvering?  Or maybe they really don't need it at all and Feds are just overly Paranoid about such things...

[marstone]

I would agree, with the buble concept, the navigational deflector is for sub-light use.  Remember sub-light is everything up to the speed of light.  In SFB the impulse engines can get a craft moving up to the speed of light (speed 1).  Small particles moving at those speeds would really mess up a ship, when warp is kicked in you are sidesteping normal movement folding space to increase the speed.  But, also from SFB, you can use impulse power to move faster to so the two forms of movement would combine, you are folding space to move really quick, and also moving in normal space up to the speed of light so navigational deflectors would help within the bubble at the speeds you are moving in normal space.

Bah, warp theory is convoluted at times but it does make sense, overall.

[Corbomite]

I know for a fact that in the book "The Making of Star Trek" they specifically said that the nav deflector was used during warp travel to move things out of the way. I have it buried around here somewhere. I'll try to find it.

[Nemesis]

If the warp bubble can protect against outside influences, why do they need a nav deflector?

Situation 1/ Ship passing through atmosphere activates warp bubble and sweeps up atmosphere when warping out

Situation 2/ Ship traveling along at warp speed comes into collision with an object with a high relative velocity that is NOT within the warp bubble already. 

Entering the warp bubble could destabilize it due to that relative velocity. 

[Corbomite]

If the warp bubble can protect against outside influences, why do they need a nav deflector?

Situation 1/ Ship passing through atmosphere activates warp bubble and sweeps up atmosphere when warping out

Situation 2/ Ship traveling along at warp speed comes into collision with an object with a high relative velocity that is NOT within the warp bubble already. 

Entering the warp bubble could destabilize it due to that relative velocity.

I'm surprized at you Nem. Sophistry? Again, there are millons of cubic tons of atmosphere outside the warp bubble with a high relative velocity to everything inside the bubble. Doesn't matter if it is dust or a dense field of gas. I'm pretty sure we have never seen any ship warp through a nebula. I'm pretty sure they even made plot points about having to go around large nebulas in Voyager (I know, I know... sacrilege!! The show that must not be named!  )

[Nemesis]

I'm surprized at you Nem. Sophistry? Again, there are millons of cubic tons of atmosphere outside the warp bubble with a high relative velocity to everything inside the bubble. Doesn't matter if it is dust or a dense field of gas. I'm pretty sure we have never seen any ship warp through a nebula. I'm pretty sure they even made plot points about having to go around large nebulas in Voyager (I know, I know... sacrilege!! The show that must not be named!  )

We are also talking about high in the atmosphere I believe.  High enough to be above the ceiling of any jet engine.  Very diffuse gas consisting of light weight molecules.   Far easier to brush aside or have the bubble of air that you would be carrying with you blunt the force of the impact compared to a micrometeor of even a few grams let alone tons. 

Never saw a ship warp through a nebula but a ship does warp through a comets tail that is dense enough to obscure Spocks sensors in The Balance of Terror.  It does so while cloaked as well.  Don't forget some people claim that cloaked ships can't operate shields and Romulans do travel while both cloaked and at warp.  The Balance of Terror never mentions shields for the Romulan ship that I recall.  I don't recall the Captain being told " The shields are failing/down to x %". 

In Enterprise Earth ships don't have shields and travel at up to Warp 5.x.

[marstone]

In Enterprise Earth ships don't have shields and travel at up to Warp 5.x.

A navigational defector wouldn't be considered shields as it would not stand up to direct fire.

I am modifiying my opinion on how warp works, after I posted I refined it down.

You do move when warping so a navigational deflector would be needed.  Here is why.

The warp bubble is nothing more the actually compressing space in front of the ship and expanding it behind, but it doesn't really move the ship (acts as a movement multiplier as a small move in compressed space equals a large move in normal space).  The impulse engine then moves the ship forward at speeds up to light speed, but because of the compressed space it becomes alot faster.

Imagine steping forward into compressed space (say compressed by times ten), one step forward and you would move the same as if you stepped ten.  To an external observer this should look like the warp jump when a ship takes off (the stretch of the shape)  If you were moving a longer distance you would just stretch and disappear.  Seems logical anough.  So in my opinion you need deflectors at warp speed.

Oh, as side note, you wouldn't take anything with you as only you is moving not the whole bubble of space, the bubble effect moves forward, space compresses ahead of you and decompresses behind as you move.

[Nemesis]

A navigational defector wouldn't be considered shields as it would not stand up to direct fire.

I don't believe that the Enterprise in that show is ever mentioned as having deflectors of any type.

Oh, as side note, you wouldn't take anything with you as only you is moving not the whole bubble of space,

In Enterprise another ships Warp bubble is extended around the Enterprise due to sabotage and the Enterprise has to do a shutdown and restart of their engines before the other ship overloads (might be the Columbia).  Those who know TNG better may recall episodes where they extend their warp field around other ships.

The only time I recall them saying what is warped is in the pilot where they say "Time Warp Factor".

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

I dont now about the Trek universe but generally speaking insofar as SciFi goes FTL drives are usually restricted from being used in atomospheres of any kind due to one of the following...

gravitational field inteference (energy required to attain FTL would be many times more due to the planets gravity well.)  Why require that much when you just go imnto space and require some much less?

shielding issues to spacecraft (already covered) with atomosphere.

safety issues to life on the planet (even if sucessfully shielded to the ship the speed we are talking about would release so much energy into the atomosphere ...  hundreds of times more powerful and destructive than the asteroid that smashed into earth 64 million years ago) 
Of course its all Sci Fi anyway.  heh.

[Tulwar]

If the warp bubble can protect against outside influences, why do they need a nav deflector?

They had to justify the big headlight on the front of the Enterprise.  I never liked that explanation myself.  I then ask, "If the nav deflector is a necessary component of starship architechture, then why did they swap the antenna in the nose of the Klingon BC for a torpedo, and not bother to put one on the Reliant?"  There were cinimatic reasons for doing so, but they sure didn't make it easy for for fans to discover the rules of starship architechture.

[Dash Jones]

If the warp bubble can protect against outside influences, why do they need a nav deflector?

They had to justify the big headlight on the front of the Enterprise.  I never liked that explanation myself.  I then ask, "If the nav deflector is a necessary component of starship architechture, then why did they swap the antenna in the nose of the Klingon BC for a torpedo, and not bother to put one on the Reliant?"  There were cinimatic reasons for doing so, but they sure didn't make it easy for for fans to discover the rules of starship architechture.

Not only that, but they constantly use it for other things, or BLOW it up and destroy it's usefulness for a while, and still seem to get along fine without the Nav Deflector.

[Age]

I wouldn't think so as you can turn at warp speed and if there is air traffic in front of you.You would end up coliding into them eg 747 and air traffic control could not track you.