Topic: Two things really bug me about the new Star Trek--Spoilers herein. (Read 4197 times)

The_Joker · « **on:** May 10, 2009, 12:37:22 am »

OK...the in-movie assertation that this movie was an alternate timeline was both simple and brilliant, and I really enjoyed the movie. However, I do have a problem with two parts:

An alternate timeline wouldn't explain a difference in physics, Star Trek, or real world.

1: How in the living hell did that entire fleet warp out of Earth's orbit? What about a planets gravity well and all that?
2: The freefall jump from low orbit to the drill was pretty idiotic....they'd have burnt up when they entered the planet's atmosphere.

Any thoughts on these two items?

KBF-Crim · « **Reply #1 on:** May 10, 2009, 01:04:07 am »

Quote from: The_Joker on May 10, 2009, 12:37:22 am

OK...the in-movie assertation that this movie was an alternate timeline was both simple and brilliant, and I really enjoyed the movie. However, I do have a problem with two parts:

An alternate timeline wouldn't explain a difference in physics, Star Trek, or real world.

1: How in the living hell did that entire fleet warp out of Earth's orbit? What about a planets gravity well and all that?
2: The freefall jump from low orbit to the drill was pretty idiotic....they'd have burnt up when they entered the planet's atmosphere.

Any thoughts on these two items?

#1....it was in the script

#2....it was in the script

Hey you asked...

The_Joker · « **Reply #2 on:** May 10, 2009, 01:08:22 am »

LOL....true true.

Its not really that big of a deal to me....its just that pretty much all other anomalies are easily explained within the storyline put forth.

Oh...and since this is a spoiler thread,

I giggled my ass off when Kirk, Sulu, and redshirted engineer who cares? went on that particular mission and the red shirt bought it.....

Brush Wolf · « **Reply #3 on:** May 10, 2009, 01:36:38 am »

1: How in the living hell did that entire fleet warp out of Earth's orbit? What about a planets gravity well and all that?

How far a ship needs to be away from planets before engaging warp has always been inconsistent in Trek in all the series and the movies. I think the best way to mentally deal with this is to imagine that the ships spent some time at sub light speeds before engaging warp.

2: The freefall jump from low orbit to the drill was pretty idiotic....they'd have burnt up when they entered the planet's atmosphere

Think of this as more like Project Excelsior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excelsior than a true space jump. Since Nero's ship was in orbit over Vulcan the shuttle from the Enterprise could dip into the atmosphere long enough to make the drop.

The_Joker · « **Reply #4 on:** May 10, 2009, 01:56:07 am »

Except for the fact that somebody on the bridge specifically stated that they were entering atmo AFTER they had jumped out of the shuttle.

Brush Wolf · « **Reply #5 on:** May 10, 2009, 02:37:21 am »

True but I am not going to let minor details diminish what to me was a really good movie.

The_Joker · « **Reply #6 on:** May 10, 2009, 02:51:57 am »

Quote from: Brush Wolf on May 10, 2009, 02:37:21 am

True but I am not going to let minor details diminish what to me was a really good movie.

Oh...don't get me wrong. I truly liked it. That's what bothers me on this particular nitpick.... There seemed to be a lot of thought put into making things work and nodding and winking to what has gone before....for instance, Kirk eating an apple while not believing in a no-win scenario. This seems like such a glaring oversight, I was wondering if one of the science and physics guys around here could give a rational explanation? For instance, I was wondering if they were possibly traveling slow enough that it would cause them not to burn up when combined with a thinner atmosphere?

Nemesis · « **Reply #7 on:** May 10, 2009, 05:22:03 am »

Quote from: The_Joker on May 10, 2009, 12:37:22 am

2: The freefall jump from low orbit to the drill was pretty idiotic....they'd have burnt up when they entered the planet's atmosphere.

I have NOT seen the movie so I don't know all the circumstances but here are some thoughts.

1/ Suborbital skydiving is being planned for NOW (from 100 km). With proper equipment you need not burn up.

2/ You can be at the altitude of a low orbit (see 1/ above) and still be moving at suborbital speeds. The ship could be moving at a suborbital velocity or even be hovering just above the atmosphere.

So without having seen the show I would say it is at least possible.

Sirgod · « **Reply #8 on:** May 10, 2009, 07:39:31 am »

That is true Nem. I think we had a thread not to long ago about Space Marines doing just that.

Stephen

marstone · « **Reply #9 on:** May 10, 2009, 10:42:40 am »

as for the dive, nothing says that they couldn't of had a small thermal shield gen on the suit that protected them from the heat. Not strong anough to defend against weapons, but good anough to seal the suit.

Commander La'ra · « **Reply #10 on:** May 10, 2009, 01:02:36 pm »

Sulu finally got a real sword fight.

KBF-Crim · « **Reply #11 on:** May 10, 2009, 06:07:22 pm »

The reason things burn up on entry is due to speed......

Orbital speeds are much higher than the rate of gravity decent 32 ft / sec squared....

Once terminal velocity is reached that's it...you dont fall any faster...

So simply dropping a galf ball from a staionary point at the limit of the atmosphere wouldnt burn up...it would simply fall at terminal velocity and hit the ground.

marstone · « **Reply #12 on:** May 10, 2009, 06:37:59 pm »

Quote from: KBF-Crim on May 10, 2009, 06:07:22 pm

The reason things burn up on entry is due to speed......

Orbital speeds are much higher than the rate of gravity decent 32 ft / sec squared....

Once terminal velocity is reached that's it...you dont fall any faster...

So simply dropping a galf ball from a staionary point at the limit of the atmosphere wouldnt burn up...it would simply fall at terminal velocity and hit the ground.

true, but the people would have the initial velocity of the ship they jumped from. So they would be moving much faster then terminal velocity to start with.

KBF-Crim · « **Reply #13 on:** May 10, 2009, 06:50:56 pm »

Quote from: marstone on May 10, 2009, 06:37:59 pm

Quote from: KBF-Crim on May 10, 2009, 06:07:22 pm
The reason things burn up on entry is due to speed......

Orbital speeds are much higher than the rate of gravity decent 32 ft / sec squared....

Once terminal velocity is reached that's it...you dont fall any faster...

So simply dropping a galf ball from a staionary point at the limit of the atmosphere wouldnt burn up...it would simply fall at terminal velocity and hit the ground.

true, but the people would have the initial velocity of the ship they jumped from. So they would be moving much faster then terminal velocity to start with.

Shuttles can hover. and VTOL...

And even if it was underway...we dont know the velocity...

I doubt they would try and 'pool shot' a drop at 50k per hour...they would hover and drop...

I'd have to see the entire sequence...which I havent...

Ever notice a federation shuttle doesnt even have phyiscal heat shields?...just generated ones...

marstone · « **Reply #14 on:** May 10, 2009, 06:54:15 pm »

Quote from: KBF-Crim on May 10, 2009, 06:50:56 pm

Quote from: marstone on May 10, 2009, 06:37:59 pm
Quote from: KBF-Crim on May 10, 2009, 06:07:22 pm
The reason things burn up on entry is due to speed......

Orbital speeds are much higher than the rate of gravity decent 32 ft / sec squared....

Once terminal velocity is reached that's it...you dont fall any faster...

So simply dropping a galf ball from a staionary point at the limit of the atmosphere wouldnt burn up...it would simply fall at terminal velocity and hit the ground.

true, but the people would have the initial velocity of the ship they jumped from. So they would be moving much faster then terminal velocity to start with.

Shuttles can hover. and VTOL...

And even if it was underway...we dont know the velocity...

I doubt they would try and 'pool shot' a drop at 50k per hour...they would hover and drop...

I'd have to see the entire sequence...which I havent...

Ever notice a federation shuttle doesnt even have phyiscal heat shields?...just generated ones...

It would make more sense to hover, but even hovering above a spot on the earth, you still have alot of speed to hold that one spot (you don't actually sit still you have to match the rotational speed modified by the distance out. So you would still be moving really fast (side note, I have always wondered why the shuttle hit the atmos at mach 14 instead of a slower speed, doesn't make sense to me, but I am not a rocket scientist)

KBF-Crim · « **Reply #15 on:** May 10, 2009, 06:59:28 pm »

Quote from: marstone on May 10, 2009, 06:54:15 pm

Quote from: KBF-Crim on May 10, 2009, 06:50:56 pm
Quote from: marstone on May 10, 2009, 06:37:59 pm
Quote from: KBF-Crim on May 10, 2009, 06:07:22 pm
The reason things burn up on entry is due to speed......

Orbital speeds are much higher than the rate of gravity decent 32 ft / sec squared....

Once terminal velocity is reached that's it...you dont fall any faster...

So simply dropping a galf ball from a staionary point at the limit of the atmosphere wouldnt burn up...it would simply fall at terminal velocity and hit the ground.

true, but the people would have the initial velocity of the ship they jumped from. So they would be moving much faster then terminal velocity to start with.

Shuttles can hover. and VTOL...

And even if it was underway...we dont know the velocity...

I doubt they would try and 'pool shot' a drop at 50k per hour...they would hover and drop...

I'd have to see the entire sequence...which I havent...

Ever notice a federation shuttle doesnt even have phyiscal heat shields?...just generated ones...
It would make more sense to hover, but even hovering above a spot on the earth, you still have alot of speed to hold that one spot (you don't actually sit still you have to match the rotational speed modified by the distance out. So you would still be moving really fast (side note, I have always wondered why the shuttle hit the atmos at mach 14 instead of a slower speed, doesn't make sense to me, but I am not a rocket scientist)

I believe it has to do with the amount of thrust that would be required to slow from orbital speeds.....

Why use all that fuel when the you can let the atmosphere do the braking for you...

Fuel has to be carried....

Ofcorse the tech is really crude...

If you had some kind of gravity drive...you could enter the atmosphere at whatever speed you wanted...

Commander La'ra · « **Reply #16 on:** May 11, 2009, 01:59:18 am »

One thing I liked about the scene, science aside, was that it marked one of the few times in Trek where you had three guys told to 'go there, defeat the enemy, break his gadget' without any hesitation.

NJAntman · « **Reply #17 on:** May 11, 2009, 09:21:26 am »

Quote from: The_Joker on May 10, 2009, 12:37:22 am

1: How in the living hell did that entire fleet warp out of Earth's orbit? What about a planets gravity well and all that?
2: The freefall jump from low orbit to the drill was pretty idiotic....they'd have burnt up when they entered the planet's atmosphere.

They referenced legendary battlespace tactics and read up on the "The Adama Maneuver" and thought if Adama can warp into low orbit, free fall an entire Battlestar, and warp out from low atmosphere then anything is possible.

Tophat · « **Reply #18 on:** May 11, 2009, 11:22:07 am »

Quote from: The_Joker on May 10, 2009, 12:37:22 am

OK...the in-movie assertation that this movie was an alternate timeline was both simple and brilliant, and I really enjoyed the movie. However, I do have a problem with two parts:

An alternate timeline wouldn't explain a difference in physics, Star Trek, or real world.

1: How in the living hell did that entire fleet warp out of Earth's orbit? What about a planets gravity well and all that?
2: The freefall jump from low orbit to the drill was pretty idiotic....they'd have burnt up when they entered the planet's atmosphere.

Any thoughts on these two items?

Who knows when,where and how the entire warp envelope works?a) First contact the Enterprise warps into earth orbit to join the battle against the Cube,thats just one instance of squishy warp field theory. b) Star Trek III Enterprise warps out just after leaving space dock and Excelsior throws a rod trying to follow.

The shuttle was going to dock with the Romulan ship which was holding a geo-stationary orbit using a drill to burn into Vulcan's mantle. Somehow I doubt you dock with a strange hostile ship holding orbit relative to the planet,at high speed.

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