Topic: Votes for the worst ship in the game....

[Nemesis]

Lets look at the quotes you guys provided:

"The Enterprise redesigned, increases Phaser power by channeling through the main engines.  When the engines went into anti-matter imbalance, the Phasers were automatically cut off."

Wasn't there also some mention of the shields being upgraded, which is why they handled the 1st volley from V'ger? Also,

Yes, Sulu pointed out that the new screens held after V'Ger hit them.

All this says is that there were improvements.  Nothing that indicates doubling the number of phasers.  Upgrading to Ph X could be justified by this.  The Phaser power getting direct channeling from warp can also be considered a defect, the moment the engines had trouble they lose phaser ability.

The shields were upgraded, but nothing to say how much.  It could be a 5% increase and still hold against an attack that would have broken the old shields.

Nothing there indicates a quantum jump in power instead of evolutionary changes. 

In any case the major thing is the affect on the game.  Once the X-Ships come out the game changes suddenly and dramatically and for some of us in a negative way.  I myself LIKE the fact that ships have flaws and weaknesses, X-Ships remove those weaknesses and flaws. 

As I recently said:

With our discussion of relative ability to take damage we actually expose one of the weaknesses of SFB.  Later designed races took into account experience with the existing races and customized them to avoid weaknesses in older ship designs and their weapons were designed to take those weaknesses into account.

Consider the Hydrans.  Strong center hull so they are protected the longest versus the 3 most common rolls.  Their major enemy is the Klingon Empire and their major weapon is designed to hit the Klingons ships in their greatest weakness - the glass rear shields.

It is unfortunate that SFB didn't tell the designers "get stuffed with your super ships". 

[Panzergranate]

According to the literature in my 1988 Commander's Edition Rules, the Kzinti Z-FH is regarded as the worst ship in the game, even by the Kzinti.

The Kzinti Z-FF is the weakest of all the frigates already and I often wondered why the Kzinti just didn't stick a Z-FF comand section onto a Z-DD hull for a Z-FH design.... Come to think of it, I might see how that works out. I feel another kitbash coming on.... 

[knightstorm]

I've never liked the F-FFD.  Even with the 3rd rack which comes with the plus refit, it still has too few drones to serve as a droner.

[marstone]

Grrr, can't find the quote. When V'ger attacked the enterprise, I believe Spock was the one to say the attack had the power of an ungodly number of photon torpedoes. (my memory was like over 100).  Also that attack disentigrated a whole Klingon K'tinga ship with one hit, but didn't drop the shields on Enterprise.  I'd say a really big upgrade on the shields.

[marstone]

I've never liked the F-FFD.  Even with the 3rd rack which comes with the plus refit, it still has too few drones to serve as a droner.

I'll agree the F=FFD was a weak ship.  It had uses, but I think it was one to show the evolution of design (first droner for the Feds).  It works alright in support.  Scatter packs, also using it's control channels to control drones from other ships when needed.  It was alright as a defensive ship (protect the fleet from enemy drones and such).

[Lieutenant_Q]

Grrr, can't find the quote. When V'ger attacked the enterprise, I believe Spock was the one to say the attack had the power of an ungodly number of photon torpedoes. (my memory was like over 100).  Also that attack disentigrated a whole Klingon K'tinga ship with one hit, but didn't drop the shields on Enterprise.  I'd say a really big upgrade on the shields.

There was an episode in Changeling, which I disregard completely, where Spock says that the shockwaves that Nomad is sending at them is equivalent "90 of our Photon Torpedoes.  We can take three more such hits, the fourth will shatter our shields completely."

Kind of funny when only a dozen episodes later, a Klingon Battle Cruiser is crippled by ONE Photon Torpedo.

[Starfox1701]

Lets look at the quotes you guys provided:

"The Enterprise redesigned, increases Phaser power by channeling through the main engines.  When the engines went into anti-matter imbalance, the Phasers were automatically cut off."

Wasn't there also some mention of the shields being upgraded, which is why they handled the 1st volley from V'ger? Also,

Yes, Sulu pointed out that the new screens held after V'Ger hit them.

Ok heres the deal. The Enterprise refit striped the ship back to the "Strong Back" which is the Keel of a starship. Every system on the ship was brand new and never been tested tech. The Phasers, warp drive, impulse drive, and shields all incorperated new tech principles never before tried on a production vessel. The refit increased the overall displacement of the ship by nearlly 25% and increased her combat effectiveness by 200% over the new build batch 3 Constitutions. Overall speed saw a 30% increase with emergency crusie speed seeing a 10% increase in duration. This was not just an incramental improvement in the design. The Enterpries represented a new generation and design philosiphy that was carried forward into ships like the Galaxy and Soverign Classes today. Its like comparing Nuclear power to Coal fired steam. They just arn't on the same level. Thats why in SFB X ship = normal DNs and BBs.

All this says is that there were improvements.  Nothing that indicates doubling the number of phasers.  Upgrading to Ph X could be justified by this.  The Phaser power getting direct channeling from warp can also be considered a defect, the moment the engines had trouble they lose phaser ability.

The shields were upgraded, but nothing to say how much.  It could be a 5% increase and still hold against an attack that would have broken the old shields.

Nothing there indicates a quantum jump in power instead of evolutionary changes. 

In any case the major thing is the affect on the game.  Once the X-Ships come out the game changes suddenly and dramatically and for some of us in a negative way.  I myself LIKE the fact that ships have flaws and weaknesses, X-Ships remove those weaknesses and flaws. 

As I recently said:

With our discussion of relative ability to take damage we actually expose one of the weaknesses of SFB.  Later designed races took into account experience with the existing races and customized them to avoid weaknesses in older ship designs and their weapons were designed to take those weaknesses into account.

Consider the Hydrans.  Strong center hull so they are protected the longest versus the 3 most common rolls.  Their major enemy is the Klingon Empire and their major weapon is designed to hit the Klingons ships in their greatest weakness - the glass rear shields.

It is unfortunate that SFB didn't tell the designers "get stuffed with your super ships". 

[FPF-Paladin]

I'm with Nemesis on X-ships.

I really dislike the sudden jump in capability and removal of having to choose between the triangle of speed-weapons-defence.  That's a lot of the tactical decision in a battle... removing it makes it kind of... bleh.... clickfesty.

I created a shiplist that moved the X ships far up in FYA and inserted a lot of variants with gradual upgrades in between.  Not anything SFB or canon though, just creations... also did adjustments to increase the BPV, as the increase shown in the shiplist currently doesn't make any sense... it's far too low.  Even then I usually get bored by the time the game gets to that point, so I've a few variants that decrease the power available to force choices to keep it remotely interesting.

[Panzergranate]

The X-Ships and the TMP starships seem to represent a technological improvement in available power, so perhaps the evolution of the Intermix Chamber with the Warp Core.... or a step in that direction.

The Federation X-Ships are all supposed to use the ACE (Advanced Circumferential Engine) nachelles and not the LN (Linear Nachelles) as seen in the TMP to TNG period.

There is a mention of the (failed) ACE project in the book "Ships of the Star Fleet 2290-2291 - Volume One, which cites the LN engine refits and new builds covering for the X-Ship programme failure.

[Nemesis]

Ok heres the deal. The Enterprise refit striped the ship back to the "Strong Back" which is the Keel of a starship. Every system on the ship was brand new and never been tested tech. The Phasers, warp drive, impulse drive, and shields all incorperated new tech principles never before tried on a production vessel. The refit increased the overall displacement of the ship by nearlly 25% and increased her combat effectiveness by 200% over the new build batch 3 Constitutions. Overall speed saw a 30% increase with emergency crusie speed seeing a 10% increase in duration. This was not just an incramental improvement in the design. The Enterpries represented a new generation and design philosiphy that was carried forward into ships like the Galaxy and Soverign Classes today. Its like comparing Nuclear power to Coal fired steam. They just arn't on the same level. Thats why in SFB X ship = normal DNs and BBs.

Source?

Honestly I don't see any way you could increase the displacement of an F-CA by a rebuild by as much as 25% and if you did the ship wouldn't be an F-CA but an F-BCH.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I think of the TMP-era Enterprise as something like the F-CB. The movie Enterprise wasn't shown as a fleet command ship, but the jump in technology between the CAR (or whatever ship you imagine the TOS Enterprise to be) and the CB seems about right for the gap in years between TOS and TMP.

The SFC timeline is actually pretty good, having X1 show up at the turn of the 24th century... seems like that's where X-ships should be -- a few years after the sixth movie and the beginning of Generations. It just seems strange that two years after TOS (The Motion Picture) or even after fifteen-whatever years (Wrath of Khan), there is such a huge jump in technology.

In the end, it's always the most fun just to imagine how you want to merge SFB and SFC/The movies. To heck if it's not the officially published story...

[FoaS_XC]

See, this is why I made my own trek-verse :-) no squabling between what sources are valid and what disproves what. Just take what you want.

Enjoy: http://wiki.robinomicon.com/index.php?title=Constitution2_class
I'm still working on some numbers and dates, but thats the general feel for the article so far.

[Czar Mohab]

Ok heres the deal. The Enterprise refit striped the ship back to the "Strong Back" which is the Keel of a starship. Every system on the ship was brand new and never been tested tech. The Phasers, warp drive, impulse drive, and shields all incorperated new tech principles never before tried on a production vessel. The refit increased the overall displacement of the ship by nearlly 25% and increased her combat effectiveness by 200% over the new build batch 3 Constitutions. Overall speed saw a 30% increase with emergency crusie speed seeing a 10% increase in duration. This was not just an incramental improvement in the design. The Enterpries represented a new generation and design philosiphy that was carried forward into ships like the Galaxy and Soverign Classes today. Its like comparing Nuclear power to Coal fired steam. They just arn't on the same level. Thats why in SFB X ship = normal DNs and BBs.

Source?

Honestly I don't see any way you could increase the displacement of an F-CA by a rebuild by as much as 25% and if you did the ship wouldn't be an F-CA but an F-BCH.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/constitution-refit.htm
Link kind of supports both views...

Back on topic:
Any medical ship is useless for SFB/SFC - F-CLH, Hospital freighters (yes, those were added to the game), that "thing" that Doctor-Captain Picard flew in All Good Things... (although not in the "official" SFB/SFC, I do think that there exists the desire to have it in someone's SFC3 as a mod, if not already done)...

Why was the F-CLH playable in SFC1? So you could beat "Dancing With Yourself"! No other use for that target. Bah, such a waste of a good hull.

Czar "Hope that link helps," Mohab

P.S. Add to that the Andro "sleds" - not too useful on their own.

[knightstorm]

What about the police ships.  While they do have a useful role in SFB, that role does not exist in SFC.  Granted, I tend to set up POL matches on GSA on occasion, but that is really me venting my frustration about rarely being able to fly anything smaller than a BCH.

[Starfox1701]

Ok heres the deal. The Enterprise refit striped the ship back to the "Strong Back" which is the Keel of a starship. Every system on the ship was brand new and never been tested tech. The Phasers, warp drive, impulse drive, and shields all incorperated new tech principles never before tried on a production vessel. The refit increased the overall displacement of the ship by nearlly 25% and increased her combat effectiveness by 200% over the new build batch 3 Constitutions. Overall speed saw a 30% increase with emergency crusie speed seeing a 10% increase in duration. This was not just an incramental improvement in the design. The Enterpries represented a new generation and design philosiphy that was carried forward into ships like the Galaxy and Soverign Classes today. Its like comparing Nuclear power to Coal fired steam. They just arn't on the same level. Thats why in SFB X ship = normal DNs and BBs.

Source?

Honestly I don't see any way you could increase the displacement of an F-CA by a rebuild by as much as 25% and if you did the ship wouldn't be an F-CA but an F-BCH.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/constitution-refit.htm
Link kind of supports both views...

Back on topic:
Any medical ship is useless for SFB/SFC - F-CLH, Hospital freighters (yes, those were added to the game), that "thing" that Doctor-Captain Picard flew in All Good Things... (although not in the "official" SFB/SFC, I do think that there exists the desire to have it in someone's SFC3 as a mod, if not already done)...

Why was the F-CLH playable in SFC1? So you could beat "Dancing With Yourself"! No other use for that target. Bah, such a waste of a good hull.

Czar "Hope that link helps," Mohab

P.S. Add to that the Andro "sleds" - not too useful on their own.

My points of source  are Mr Scotts Guide to the Enterprise, The ships of the Star Fleet, and The Motion Picture. For the record the Klingons considered the Constitution refit a BC. Source is dialog from ST III. They refer the the Enterprise as a "Federation Battle Cruiser" When considering the classifacation note the the TV often refers to ships as cruisers even when they are some of that navies most powerful classes.

[FoaS_XC]

Ok heres the deal. The Enterprise refit striped the ship back to the "Strong Back" which is the Keel of a starship. Every system on the ship was brand new and never been tested tech. The Phasers, warp drive, impulse drive, and shields all incorperated new tech principles never before tried on a production vessel. The refit increased the overall displacement of the ship by nearlly 25% and increased her combat effectiveness by 200% over the new build batch 3 Constitutions. Overall speed saw a 30% increase with emergency crusie speed seeing a 10% increase in duration. This was not just an incramental improvement in the design. The Enterpries represented a new generation and design philosiphy that was carried forward into ships like the Galaxy and Soverign Classes today. Its like comparing Nuclear power to Coal fired steam. They just arn't on the same level. Thats why in SFB X ship = normal DNs and BBs.

Source?

Honestly I don't see any way you could increase the displacement of an F-CA by a rebuild by as much as 25% and if you did the ship wouldn't be an F-CA but an F-BCH.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/constitution-refit.htm
Link kind of supports both views...

Back on topic:
Any medical ship is useless for SFB/SFC - F-CLH, Hospital freighters (yes, those were added to the game), that "thing" that Doctor-Captain Picard flew in All Good Things... (although not in the "official" SFB/SFC, I do think that there exists the desire to have it in someone's SFC3 as a mod, if not already done)...

Why was the F-CLH playable in SFC1? So you could beat "Dancing With Yourself"! No other use for that target. Bah, such a waste of a good hull.

Czar "Hope that link helps," Mohab

P.S. Add to that the Andro "sleds" - not too useful on their own.

My points of source  are Mr Scotts Guide to the Enterprise, The ships of the Star Fleet, and The Motion Picture. For the record the Klingons considered the Constitution refit a BC. Source is dialog from ST III. They refer the the Enterprise as a "Federation Battle Cruiser" When considering the classifacation note the the TV often refers to ships as cruisers even when they are some of that navies most powerful classes.

That could be very much due to the warlike nature of the klinks, a Heavy cruiser for us could be called a battlecruiser by them. Its also sort of like the klingon catchall term; Starship for us, Warbirds for Roms, Battlecruisers for them... Who knows.

[Czar Mohab]

What about the police ships.  While they do have a useful role in SFB, that role does not exist in SFC.  Granted, I tend to set up POL matches on GSA on occasion, but that is really me venting my frustration about rarely being able to fly anything smaller than a BCH.

You're right; SFC POLs are crap, considering that the common situations that you find them in are rediculously unbalanced in favor of the other team. You should really only find them defending convoys against pirate raiders (where the guns of the convoy can be grouped into something resembling a good defense) and protecting smaller, more backwater planets from the same, where a small group (say, 3) of them is enough to keep the baddies busy. There's really no reason to have them in SFC, except for "completeness" of the SFB to SFC transition.

My points of source  are Mr Scotts Guide to the Enterprise, The ships of the Star Fleet, and The Motion Picture. For the record the Klingons considered the Constitution refit a BC. Source is dialog from ST III. They refer the the Enterprise as a "Federation Battle Cruiser" When considering the classifacation note the the TV often refers to ships as cruisers even when they are some of that navies most powerful classes.

That could be very much due to the warlike nature of the klinks, a Heavy cruiser for us could be called a battlecruiser by them. Its also sort of like the klingon catchall term; Starship for us, Warbirds for Roms, Battlecruisers for them... Who knows.

From the TNG Tech Manual, the Galaxy class is an "Explorer Class", so you really should take non-SFB hull classifications with a grain of salt. We all know that the primary role of Trek Starfleet is to explore while the role seems to be combat in SFB/SFC Starfleet. Give them some credit, though, as they tried to stay Trekish.

I suggest to take this question easy. Even in present-day navies the designations may be subject to change, as new frigates are often larger than destroyers, and the latter seem to come out of use anyway. In many cases Starfleet probably doesn't know itself how to categorize a new ship class, just like it was with the Defiant. I wouldn't know how to classify the Prometheus, and please don't ask me about the Saber, Steamrunner or Norway either. There is absolutely no clue. Making up terms like "fast attack frigate" or "strike cruiser" and insisting on them is fanboyish and unbecoming of Starfleet.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/miscellaneous.htm

Czar "Humph," Mohab

[Panzergranate]

In SFC 1 having the F-CLH in your squadron has the AI enemy equiped with just Battle Stations in all campaign games.

In SFB, only two F-CL were converted into F-CLH, so in SFC the any model of a Texas Class F-CL should be used.

I would have rather that they just had the F-CL there instead of the F-CLH.

[Age]

Cloaking would be great for Klingons, but only if they had a cloak cost of 1 or less, in which case it would be cheap as all get-out!

Class-for-class, I really hate most Klingon dreadnoughts. Most smaller Klingon ships have great arcs, but things like the C8 have many of their offensive phasers facing only one side, and the disruptor arcs are barely better than FA-only. Compared to many of the Klink dreadnoughts, the C7 has as many or more ph-1, and better arcs. Now, the C8 and C9 have better durability, but I don't think that a Klingon should rely on that durability to win, so it's a dumb design to trade good arcs/maneuverability/efficiency for durability.

About the D7W ... were all D7K/D7L converted to this type eventually? If so, it makes me feel better about abusing command ships.

It would be ok if the cost was that of the same as for Romulans the cloak that is.The only problem is that normal disruptors don't cost that much to recharge as compared to plasma.I can see photons but not disruptors unless the cost is greater than Romulan ships.I wouldn't mind seeing some Feds ships get more power and shielding

I can't think of worst ship of the game atm.

Quote from: Starfox1701 on April 23, 2009, 09:32:12 amI have to disagree here. If you look at the development history for SFB all the X ships come out after the Movies have shown people the refit Constitution and Katinga models. These are both ships that have massive improvements over there TOS counterparts. Because the makers of SFB have no desire to move completely out of the TOS framework they have made for the game the Xships became an alternitive to the true historical development of tech in Star Trek

The only problem is that they never had phasers the Katinga as well as all Klink ships that is.

[Panzergranate]

Klingon Police Ships are only in the game so that the other race's frigates have something that they at least have a chance of beating.

I quite like flying Police Ships, mainly due to the challenge.

They actually give Kzinti frigates a fighting chance of survival.

The SFB G2X Advanced Police Ship is an interesting addition to the Klingon line up.