Topic: Votes for the worst ship in the game....

[Panzergranate]

I reckon everyone has an idea of which is the most pointless or worst ship in SFB and SFC.

My vote is for the F5Y.... a ship with just Disrupters (and crap ones at that!!) which finds the large freighter shields next to impossible to penetrate, struggles to kill small freighters , making it pretty useless as a commerce raider, which is what it seems to be intended for.

It can't be used as a cloaked scout as it lacks special sensors, which would replace the sole armament of Disrupters if fitted.

So the case for the F5Y being the worst and most pointless ship in the game is put.... unless someone else can come up with another candidate.

[Nemesis]

R-COH.  Loses BOTH it's plasma torpedoes and one of its 2 shuttles in becoming a Commando ship.  What type of ship can it capture with ONE transporter and 1 shuttle?  With 4 Ph I, good shields and maneuvering it could defeat a freighter or even a F-Pol but how is it supposed to actually function as a Commando ship? 

K-E4G.  Loses its disruptor's and drone rack in becoming a commando ship but doesn't carry enough transporters or shuttles to perform as a commando ship.  With only 4 Ph II it finds it next to impossible to knock down a shield to allow boarding actions in any case.  It can't run away due to the 4 pt aft shield.  Even to capture (let alone destroy) a Federation Freighter would be a challenge.  What possible role does this ship fill?

[Nemesis]

I reckon everyone has an idea of which is the most pointless or worst ship in SFB and SFC.

My vote is for the F5Y.... a ship with just Disrupters (and crap ones at that!!) which finds the large freighter shields next to impossible to penetrate, struggles to kill small freighters , making it pretty useless as a commerce raider, which is what it seems to be intended for.

It can't be used as a cloaked scout as it lacks special sensors, which would replace the sole armament of Disrupters if fitted.

So the case for the F5Y being the worst and most pointless ship in the game is put.... unless someone else can come up with another candidate.

The K-F5Y keeps all its K-F5 armaments and so long as you ignore the idiocy of putting a cloak on it the ship is an excellent frigate as intended.  The K-E4Y is similar in adding a cloak to a ship that is otherwise unchanged and unsuited for using a cloak.  Yes it can beat freighters easily.

Cloaks are useful for scouting and for ships with long weapon cycles not for mainline ships whose weapons cycle fast.  It also needs enemies against whom a cloak can be effective.  Two out of the 3 Klingon enemies have weapons that can take down a cloaked ship quite well.

[Starfox1701]

Any of the frigate comando ships are pretty much useless. They were already too small to survive in a ship to ship combate enviroment which is why they got replaced with war destroyers in the first place. Trying to shoe horn in another function for which the US Navy builds baby carieers for is a asking for trouble.

[knightstorm]

I'd have to say the Taldren adv ships.  While I am not opposed to the adv weaponry like many of the posters on these boards, I can't stand the ships that they are on.  Ships without limits do not belong in a game that is supposed to be about managing limited energy resources.

[Nemesis]

I'd have to say the Taldren adv ships.  While I am not opposed to the adv weaponry like many of the posters on these boards, I can't stand the ships that they are on.  Ships without limits do not belong in a game that is supposed to be about managing limited energy resources.

If the topic were which ships need most to be removed from the game I would say the X Ships myself.  The problem I have with them is not the weapons but the major jump in total capability in 1 generation. 

Consider the way the K-D7 evolved step by step to the B then K then W.  Then the jump to the DX where unlike all other upgrades, systems enhanced across the board in large ways.  All phasers upgraded to X,  50% increase in disruptors, 25% power boost, major shield increase and so forth not a generational change but a change bigger than all those from the K-D7 to the K-D7W in one step.

There need to be more incremental upgrades to the full X status or remove the current X ships altogether to keep generational changes in line with prior changes.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Cloaking would be great for Klingons, but only if they had a cloak cost of 1 or less, in which case it would be cheap as all get-out!

Class-for-class, I really hate most Klingon dreadnoughts. Most smaller Klingon ships have great arcs, but things like the C8 have many of their offensive phasers facing only one side, and the disruptor arcs are barely better than FA-only. Compared to many of the Klink dreadnoughts, the C7 has as many or more ph-1, and better arcs. Now, the C8 and C9 have better durability, but I don't think that a Klingon should rely on that durability to win, so it's a dumb design to trade good arcs/maneuverability/efficiency for durability.

About the D7W ... were all D7K/D7L converted to this type eventually? If so, it makes me feel better about abusing command ships.

[Czar Mohab]

R-COH.  Loses BOTH it's plasma torpedoes and one of its 2 shuttles in becoming a Commando ship.  What type of ship can it capture with ONE transporter and 1 shuttle?  With 4 Ph I, good shields and maneuvering it could defeat a freighter or even a F-Pol but how is it supposed to actually function as a Commando ship? 

K-E4G.  Loses its disruptor's and drone rack in becoming a commando ship but doesn't carry enough transporters or shuttles to perform as a commando ship.  With only 4 Ph II it finds it next to impossible to knock down a shield to allow boarding actions in any case.  It can't run away due to the 4 pt aft shield.  Even to capture (let alone destroy) a Federation Freighter would be a challenge.  What possible role does this ship fill?

COH can land on planets (Aerodynamically, IIRC) in SFB, which would allow the ship to lower the ramp, unload everything, and get out of dodge. Lost this coolness in SFC. Very sad, Romulans can own almost any planet within a few turns using mass troop landings - Biggest problem was getting the slow tubs there in a timely manner, and in one piece.

Any of the frigate comando ships are pretty much useless. They were already too small to survive in a ship to ship combate enviroment which is why they got replaced with war destroyers in the first place. Trying to shoe horn in another function for which the US Navy builds baby carieers for is a asking for trouble.

Too true - this is an instance where the SFB to SFC conversion breaks down. While they may not be the first choice to take on a planetary raid, they could be there and after the real warships clear the area of baddies these could come in and, using both their own transporters and those of their friendly ships to beam down troops. Kind of useless in battle themselves, and probably not the desired ship to go capturing other ships with, but so long as they have support and they stay more or less in their role, they're fine enough ships.

As far as SFC is concerned, these are indeed mighty useless. Commando Frigates in SFC are best when you're shooting at them in your brand new "Just out of the Academy" Frigate. They are more or less free prestige (unless you really goof it up) in this instance.

Czar "Worthless ship = F-CLH" Mohab, who notes that this is just one of many...

[Panzergranate]

I kind of agree on the commando ships being unfit for purpose.

In our LAN games here, both sides tend to opt for small troop ships, which have more transporters and can have a 4 x shuttle bay ducktail welded on the tail plus a skid, under the belly, for additional stuff.

Troop Ships are listed, as standard, under "All Races" as X-FTS and X-FTL in the SFBSPC13.TXT and SHIPLIST.TXT files right at the top, but with no model assigned, for use in scenario scripts. However Taldren never used them actually in the SFC games.

Apart from being slow, troopships can land troops, carry several shuttles and even have facilities for MRS shuttles.

If I was a Rommie player wishing to capture something, and given the choice between a R-COH and R-FTS or R-FTL, I'd go for a troopship with ducktail and skids everytime, a couple of MRS shuttles, a cargo bay full of heavy weapons and other useful millitary hardware.

[Chrystoff]

I kind of agree on the commando ships being unfit for purpose.

In our LAN games here, both sides tend to opt for small troop ships, which have more transporters and can have a 4 x shuttle bay ducktail welded on the tail plus a skid, under the belly, for additional stuff.

Troop Ships are listed, as standard, under "All Races" as X-FTS and X-FTL in the SFBSPC13.TXT and SHIPLIST.TXT files right at the top, but with no model assigned, for use in scenario scripts. However Taldren never used them actually in the SFC games.

Apart from being slow, troopships can land troops, carry several shuttles and even have facilities for MRS shuttles.

If I was a Rommie player wishing to capture something, and given the choice between a R-COH and R-FTS or R-FTL, I'd go for a troopship with ducktail and skids everytime, a couple of MRS shuttles, a cargo bay full of heavy weapons and other useful millitary hardware.

  Are there any renders anywhere for what one of these might look like? The ducktail and skid idea sounds interesting.

[Panzergranate]

We just do what SFB players do with their freighter models.... and just imagine that the ducktails and skids are in place.

There are ADB SSDs of freighters with either ducktails, skids or both fitted, along with "In Ballast" SSDs of freighters.

The ducktail is just a 4 x Box aft shuttle hangar tacked onto the back of freighters to allow a pair of 2 space Cargo shuttles to be carried and operated. This would be useful for landing and retreiving cargo from planets where landing a freighter isn't adviseable and where transporter transfers are impossible.  Needless to say, 2 space MRS shuttles and any other 2 space small craft will also fit into the ducktail hangar bay.

Skids are welded under the forward hull of the freighter and usually carry 4 x box spaces of useful stuff, such as transporters, etc. For freighters, ADB has a proscribed set rigging. However, ADB has a heavy Q-Ship SSD displaying both dual weapons skids and a ducktial, on their website.

Ducktails and skid can be fitted to ALL freighter based millitary vessels, so will fit onto troopships, repair freighters, AuxCV and AuxCVA, etc. without affecting movement costs.

Someone has already posted up "In Ballast" Fed freighters on Battleclinic.

Troopships use stock freighter hulls, so any freighter for a specific race can be used. You just need to look online for the relavent models.

I'm sure that the creators of the freighter models will do revised versions with duscktails and skids in the various combinations.

The specs are already in the shiplists, one just needs to marry them up to the appropriate race's freighters.

[GotAFarmYet?]

Worse ship in the game?

Usually the one I am flying, I give all the better ships and load outs to the AI piloting the other swhips in my fleet. That way they might stand a chance in fight without me having to micro manage them.

[Starfox1701]

I'd have to say the Taldren adv ships.  While I am not opposed to the adv weaponry like many of the posters on these boards, I can't stand the ships that they are on.  Ships without limits do not belong in a game that is supposed to be about managing limited energy resources.

If the topic were which ships need most to be removed from the game I would say the X Ships myself.  The problem I have with them is not the weapons but the major jump in total capability in 1 generation. 

Consider the way the K-D7 evolved step by step to the B then K then W.  Then the jump to the DX where unlike all other upgrades, systems enhanced across the board in large ways.  All phasers upgraded to X,  50% increase in disruptors, 25% power boost, major shield increase and so forth not a generational change but a change bigger than all those from the K-D7 to the K-D7W in one step.

There need to be more incremental upgrades to the full X status or remove the current X ships altogether to keep generational changes in line with prior changes.

I have to disagree here. If you look at the development history for SFB all the X ships come out after the Movies have shown people the refit Constitution and Katinga models. These are both ships that have massive improvements over there TOS counterparts. Because the makers of SFB have no desire to move completely out of the TOS framework they have made for the game the Xships became an alternitive to the true historical development of tech in Star Trek and the one item the firmly placed the game in an alternet timeline. When the X ships are seen in the context of TMP tech in a TOS universe for SFB or TLE tech in a TMP universe for SFC they don't seem that over powered to me. Just think of them as the nuc boats of the sub world. Anything eles is just a diesel engine.

[marstone]

I'd have to say the Taldren adv ships.  While I am not opposed to the adv weaponry like many of the posters on these boards, I can't stand the ships that they are on.  Ships without limits do not belong in a game that is supposed to be about managing limited energy resources.

If the topic were which ships need most to be removed from the game I would say the X Ships myself.  The problem I have with them is not the weapons but the major jump in total capability in 1 generation. 

Consider the way the K-D7 evolved step by step to the B then K then W.  Then the jump to the DX where unlike all other upgrades, systems enhanced across the board in large ways.  All phasers upgraded to X,  50% increase in disruptors, 25% power boost, major shield increase and so forth not a generational change but a change bigger than all those from the K-D7 to the K-D7W in one step.

There need to be more incremental upgrades to the full X status or remove the current X ships altogether to keep generational changes in line with prior changes.

I have to disagree here. If you look at the development history for SFB all the X ships come out after the Movies have shown people the refit Constitution and Katinga models. These are both ships that have massive improvements over there TOS counterparts. Because the makers of SFB have no desire to move completely out of the TOS framework they have made for the game the Xships became an alternitive to the true historical development of tech in Star Trek and the one item the firmly placed the game in an alternet timeline. When the X ships are seen in the context of TMP tech in a TOS universe for SFB or TLE tech in a TMP universe for SFC they don't seem that over powered to me. Just think of them as the nuc boats of the sub world. Anything eles is just a diesel engine.

X-ship development doesn't cover the movies in SFB because, ADB didn't have the copywrite for the movie only TOS.  IIRC X3 was the movie ships (and ADB didn't do X3)

[Khalee1]

Worst ship in the game Anything Klingon Nuff said

[Nemesis]

Worst ship in the game Anything Klingon Nuff said

The K-F5 and K-D7 and their mainline variants are among the best in the game.  If you are good enough. 

[Nemesis]

I have to disagree here. If you look at the development history for SFB all the X ships come out after the Movies have shown people the refit Constitution and Katinga models. These are both ships that have massive improvements over there TOS counterparts. Because the makers of SFB have no desire to move completely out of the TOS framework they have made for the game the Xships became an alternitive to the true historical development of tech in Star Trek and the one item the firmly placed the game in an alternet timeline. When the X ships are seen in the context of TMP tech in a TOS universe for SFB or TLE tech in a TMP universe for SFC they don't seem that over powered to me. Just think of them as the nuc boats of the sub world. Anything eles is just a diesel engine.

In the movie is there any point where Scotty (or someone else) lists all the super powered weapons, power systems and shields or are they just sleeker versions of what were already there?

[Lieutenant_Q]

Decker when explaining him self to Kirk.

"The Enterprise redesigned, increases Phaser power by channeling through the main engines.  When the engines went into anti-matter imbalance, the Phasers were automatically cut off."

[Rod ONeal]

Wasn't there also some mention of the shields being upgraded, which is why they handled the 1st volley from V'ger? Also, I think they said that the refit Ent. had been stripped to her frame and virtually everything was new. Sorry, I've seen the movie but not a big enough fan to have everything committed to memory.

For a real life example look at the Navy's DDX. Pretty major upgrade across the board. Weapons, stealth, etc...

[Lieutenant_Q]

I had to go over the script for a story I was writing, only real reason that comes to mind.

Yes, Sulu pointed out that the new screens held after V'Ger hit them.

[Nemesis]

Lets look at the quotes you guys provided:

"The Enterprise redesigned, increases Phaser power by channeling through the main engines.  When the engines went into anti-matter imbalance, the Phasers were automatically cut off."

Wasn't there also some mention of the shields being upgraded, which is why they handled the 1st volley from V'ger? Also,

Yes, Sulu pointed out that the new screens held after V'Ger hit them.

All this says is that there were improvements.  Nothing that indicates doubling the number of phasers.  Upgrading to Ph X could be justified by this.  The Phaser power getting direct channeling from warp can also be considered a defect, the moment the engines had trouble they lose phaser ability.

The shields were upgraded, but nothing to say how much.  It could be a 5% increase and still hold against an attack that would have broken the old shields.

Nothing there indicates a quantum jump in power instead of evolutionary changes. 

In any case the major thing is the affect on the game.  Once the X-Ships come out the game changes suddenly and dramatically and for some of us in a negative way.  I myself LIKE the fact that ships have flaws and weaknesses, X-Ships remove those weaknesses and flaws. 

As I recently said:

With our discussion of relative ability to take damage we actually expose one of the weaknesses of SFB.  Later designed races took into account experience with the existing races and customized them to avoid weaknesses in older ship designs and their weapons were designed to take those weaknesses into account.

Consider the Hydrans.  Strong center hull so they are protected the longest versus the 3 most common rolls.  Their major enemy is the Klingon Empire and their major weapon is designed to hit the Klingons ships in their greatest weakness - the glass rear shields.

It is unfortunate that SFB didn't tell the designers "get stuffed with your super ships". 

[Panzergranate]

According to the literature in my 1988 Commander's Edition Rules, the Kzinti Z-FH is regarded as the worst ship in the game, even by the Kzinti.

The Kzinti Z-FF is the weakest of all the frigates already and I often wondered why the Kzinti just didn't stick a Z-FF comand section onto a Z-DD hull for a Z-FH design.... Come to think of it, I might see how that works out. I feel another kitbash coming on.... 

[knightstorm]

I've never liked the F-FFD.  Even with the 3rd rack which comes with the plus refit, it still has too few drones to serve as a droner.

[marstone]

Grrr, can't find the quote. When V'ger attacked the enterprise, I believe Spock was the one to say the attack had the power of an ungodly number of photon torpedoes. (my memory was like over 100).  Also that attack disentigrated a whole Klingon K'tinga ship with one hit, but didn't drop the shields on Enterprise.  I'd say a really big upgrade on the shields.

[marstone]

I've never liked the F-FFD.  Even with the 3rd rack which comes with the plus refit, it still has too few drones to serve as a droner.

I'll agree the F=FFD was a weak ship.  It had uses, but I think it was one to show the evolution of design (first droner for the Feds).  It works alright in support.  Scatter packs, also using it's control channels to control drones from other ships when needed.  It was alright as a defensive ship (protect the fleet from enemy drones and such).

[Lieutenant_Q]

Grrr, can't find the quote. When V'ger attacked the enterprise, I believe Spock was the one to say the attack had the power of an ungodly number of photon torpedoes. (my memory was like over 100).  Also that attack disentigrated a whole Klingon K'tinga ship with one hit, but didn't drop the shields on Enterprise.  I'd say a really big upgrade on the shields.

There was an episode in Changeling, which I disregard completely, where Spock says that the shockwaves that Nomad is sending at them is equivalent "90 of our Photon Torpedoes.  We can take three more such hits, the fourth will shatter our shields completely."

Kind of funny when only a dozen episodes later, a Klingon Battle Cruiser is crippled by ONE Photon Torpedo.

[Starfox1701]

Lets look at the quotes you guys provided:

"The Enterprise redesigned, increases Phaser power by channeling through the main engines.  When the engines went into anti-matter imbalance, the Phasers were automatically cut off."

Wasn't there also some mention of the shields being upgraded, which is why they handled the 1st volley from V'ger? Also,

Yes, Sulu pointed out that the new screens held after V'Ger hit them.

Ok heres the deal. The Enterprise refit striped the ship back to the "Strong Back" which is the Keel of a starship. Every system on the ship was brand new and never been tested tech. The Phasers, warp drive, impulse drive, and shields all incorperated new tech principles never before tried on a production vessel. The refit increased the overall displacement of the ship by nearlly 25% and increased her combat effectiveness by 200% over the new build batch 3 Constitutions. Overall speed saw a 30% increase with emergency crusie speed seeing a 10% increase in duration. This was not just an incramental improvement in the design. The Enterpries represented a new generation and design philosiphy that was carried forward into ships like the Galaxy and Soverign Classes today. Its like comparing Nuclear power to Coal fired steam. They just arn't on the same level. Thats why in SFB X ship = normal DNs and BBs.

All this says is that there were improvements.  Nothing that indicates doubling the number of phasers.  Upgrading to Ph X could be justified by this.  The Phaser power getting direct channeling from warp can also be considered a defect, the moment the engines had trouble they lose phaser ability.

The shields were upgraded, but nothing to say how much.  It could be a 5% increase and still hold against an attack that would have broken the old shields.

Nothing there indicates a quantum jump in power instead of evolutionary changes. 

In any case the major thing is the affect on the game.  Once the X-Ships come out the game changes suddenly and dramatically and for some of us in a negative way.  I myself LIKE the fact that ships have flaws and weaknesses, X-Ships remove those weaknesses and flaws. 

As I recently said:

With our discussion of relative ability to take damage we actually expose one of the weaknesses of SFB.  Later designed races took into account experience with the existing races and customized them to avoid weaknesses in older ship designs and their weapons were designed to take those weaknesses into account.

Consider the Hydrans.  Strong center hull so they are protected the longest versus the 3 most common rolls.  Their major enemy is the Klingon Empire and their major weapon is designed to hit the Klingons ships in their greatest weakness - the glass rear shields.

It is unfortunate that SFB didn't tell the designers "get stuffed with your super ships". 

[FPF-Paladin]

I'm with Nemesis on X-ships.

I really dislike the sudden jump in capability and removal of having to choose between the triangle of speed-weapons-defence.  That's a lot of the tactical decision in a battle... removing it makes it kind of... bleh.... clickfesty.

I created a shiplist that moved the X ships far up in FYA and inserted a lot of variants with gradual upgrades in between.  Not anything SFB or canon though, just creations... also did adjustments to increase the BPV, as the increase shown in the shiplist currently doesn't make any sense... it's far too low.  Even then I usually get bored by the time the game gets to that point, so I've a few variants that decrease the power available to force choices to keep it remotely interesting.

[Panzergranate]

The X-Ships and the TMP starships seem to represent a technological improvement in available power, so perhaps the evolution of the Intermix Chamber with the Warp Core.... or a step in that direction.

The Federation X-Ships are all supposed to use the ACE (Advanced Circumferential Engine) nachelles and not the LN (Linear Nachelles) as seen in the TMP to TNG period.

There is a mention of the (failed) ACE project in the book "Ships of the Star Fleet 2290-2291 - Volume One, which cites the LN engine refits and new builds covering for the X-Ship programme failure.

[Nemesis]

Ok heres the deal. The Enterprise refit striped the ship back to the "Strong Back" which is the Keel of a starship. Every system on the ship was brand new and never been tested tech. The Phasers, warp drive, impulse drive, and shields all incorperated new tech principles never before tried on a production vessel. The refit increased the overall displacement of the ship by nearlly 25% and increased her combat effectiveness by 200% over the new build batch 3 Constitutions. Overall speed saw a 30% increase with emergency crusie speed seeing a 10% increase in duration. This was not just an incramental improvement in the design. The Enterpries represented a new generation and design philosiphy that was carried forward into ships like the Galaxy and Soverign Classes today. Its like comparing Nuclear power to Coal fired steam. They just arn't on the same level. Thats why in SFB X ship = normal DNs and BBs.

Source?

Honestly I don't see any way you could increase the displacement of an F-CA by a rebuild by as much as 25% and if you did the ship wouldn't be an F-CA but an F-BCH.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I think of the TMP-era Enterprise as something like the F-CB. The movie Enterprise wasn't shown as a fleet command ship, but the jump in technology between the CAR (or whatever ship you imagine the TOS Enterprise to be) and the CB seems about right for the gap in years between TOS and TMP.

The SFC timeline is actually pretty good, having X1 show up at the turn of the 24th century... seems like that's where X-ships should be -- a few years after the sixth movie and the beginning of Generations. It just seems strange that two years after TOS (The Motion Picture) or even after fifteen-whatever years (Wrath of Khan), there is such a huge jump in technology.

In the end, it's always the most fun just to imagine how you want to merge SFB and SFC/The movies. To heck if it's not the officially published story...

[FoaS_XC]

See, this is why I made my own trek-verse :-) no squabling between what sources are valid and what disproves what. Just take what you want.

Enjoy: http://wiki.robinomicon.com/index.php?title=Constitution2_class
I'm still working on some numbers and dates, but thats the general feel for the article so far.

[Czar Mohab]

Ok heres the deal. The Enterprise refit striped the ship back to the "Strong Back" which is the Keel of a starship. Every system on the ship was brand new and never been tested tech. The Phasers, warp drive, impulse drive, and shields all incorperated new tech principles never before tried on a production vessel. The refit increased the overall displacement of the ship by nearlly 25% and increased her combat effectiveness by 200% over the new build batch 3 Constitutions. Overall speed saw a 30% increase with emergency crusie speed seeing a 10% increase in duration. This was not just an incramental improvement in the design. The Enterpries represented a new generation and design philosiphy that was carried forward into ships like the Galaxy and Soverign Classes today. Its like comparing Nuclear power to Coal fired steam. They just arn't on the same level. Thats why in SFB X ship = normal DNs and BBs.

Source?

Honestly I don't see any way you could increase the displacement of an F-CA by a rebuild by as much as 25% and if you did the ship wouldn't be an F-CA but an F-BCH.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/constitution-refit.htm
Link kind of supports both views...

Back on topic:
Any medical ship is useless for SFB/SFC - F-CLH, Hospital freighters (yes, those were added to the game), that "thing" that Doctor-Captain Picard flew in All Good Things... (although not in the "official" SFB/SFC, I do think that there exists the desire to have it in someone's SFC3 as a mod, if not already done)...

Why was the F-CLH playable in SFC1? So you could beat "Dancing With Yourself"! No other use for that target. Bah, such a waste of a good hull.

Czar "Hope that link helps," Mohab

P.S. Add to that the Andro "sleds" - not too useful on their own.

[knightstorm]

What about the police ships.  While they do have a useful role in SFB, that role does not exist in SFC.  Granted, I tend to set up POL matches on GSA on occasion, but that is really me venting my frustration about rarely being able to fly anything smaller than a BCH.

[Starfox1701]

Ok heres the deal. The Enterprise refit striped the ship back to the "Strong Back" which is the Keel of a starship. Every system on the ship was brand new and never been tested tech. The Phasers, warp drive, impulse drive, and shields all incorperated new tech principles never before tried on a production vessel. The refit increased the overall displacement of the ship by nearlly 25% and increased her combat effectiveness by 200% over the new build batch 3 Constitutions. Overall speed saw a 30% increase with emergency crusie speed seeing a 10% increase in duration. This was not just an incramental improvement in the design. The Enterpries represented a new generation and design philosiphy that was carried forward into ships like the Galaxy and Soverign Classes today. Its like comparing Nuclear power to Coal fired steam. They just arn't on the same level. Thats why in SFB X ship = normal DNs and BBs.

Source?

Honestly I don't see any way you could increase the displacement of an F-CA by a rebuild by as much as 25% and if you did the ship wouldn't be an F-CA but an F-BCH.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/constitution-refit.htm
Link kind of supports both views...

Back on topic:
Any medical ship is useless for SFB/SFC - F-CLH, Hospital freighters (yes, those were added to the game), that "thing" that Doctor-Captain Picard flew in All Good Things... (although not in the "official" SFB/SFC, I do think that there exists the desire to have it in someone's SFC3 as a mod, if not already done)...

Why was the F-CLH playable in SFC1? So you could beat "Dancing With Yourself"! No other use for that target. Bah, such a waste of a good hull.

Czar "Hope that link helps," Mohab

P.S. Add to that the Andro "sleds" - not too useful on their own.

My points of source  are Mr Scotts Guide to the Enterprise, The ships of the Star Fleet, and The Motion Picture. For the record the Klingons considered the Constitution refit a BC. Source is dialog from ST III. They refer the the Enterprise as a "Federation Battle Cruiser" When considering the classifacation note the the TV often refers to ships as cruisers even when they are some of that navies most powerful classes.

[FoaS_XC]

Ok heres the deal. The Enterprise refit striped the ship back to the "Strong Back" which is the Keel of a starship. Every system on the ship was brand new and never been tested tech. The Phasers, warp drive, impulse drive, and shields all incorperated new tech principles never before tried on a production vessel. The refit increased the overall displacement of the ship by nearlly 25% and increased her combat effectiveness by 200% over the new build batch 3 Constitutions. Overall speed saw a 30% increase with emergency crusie speed seeing a 10% increase in duration. This was not just an incramental improvement in the design. The Enterpries represented a new generation and design philosiphy that was carried forward into ships like the Galaxy and Soverign Classes today. Its like comparing Nuclear power to Coal fired steam. They just arn't on the same level. Thats why in SFB X ship = normal DNs and BBs.

Source?

Honestly I don't see any way you could increase the displacement of an F-CA by a rebuild by as much as 25% and if you did the ship wouldn't be an F-CA but an F-BCH.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/constitution-refit.htm
Link kind of supports both views...

Back on topic:
Any medical ship is useless for SFB/SFC - F-CLH, Hospital freighters (yes, those were added to the game), that "thing" that Doctor-Captain Picard flew in All Good Things... (although not in the "official" SFB/SFC, I do think that there exists the desire to have it in someone's SFC3 as a mod, if not already done)...

Why was the F-CLH playable in SFC1? So you could beat "Dancing With Yourself"! No other use for that target. Bah, such a waste of a good hull.

Czar "Hope that link helps," Mohab

P.S. Add to that the Andro "sleds" - not too useful on their own.

My points of source  are Mr Scotts Guide to the Enterprise, The ships of the Star Fleet, and The Motion Picture. For the record the Klingons considered the Constitution refit a BC. Source is dialog from ST III. They refer the the Enterprise as a "Federation Battle Cruiser" When considering the classifacation note the the TV often refers to ships as cruisers even when they are some of that navies most powerful classes.

That could be very much due to the warlike nature of the klinks, a Heavy cruiser for us could be called a battlecruiser by them. Its also sort of like the klingon catchall term; Starship for us, Warbirds for Roms, Battlecruisers for them... Who knows.

[Czar Mohab]

What about the police ships.  While they do have a useful role in SFB, that role does not exist in SFC.  Granted, I tend to set up POL matches on GSA on occasion, but that is really me venting my frustration about rarely being able to fly anything smaller than a BCH.

You're right; SFC POLs are crap, considering that the common situations that you find them in are rediculously unbalanced in favor of the other team. You should really only find them defending convoys against pirate raiders (where the guns of the convoy can be grouped into something resembling a good defense) and protecting smaller, more backwater planets from the same, where a small group (say, 3) of them is enough to keep the baddies busy. There's really no reason to have them in SFC, except for "completeness" of the SFB to SFC transition.

My points of source  are Mr Scotts Guide to the Enterprise, The ships of the Star Fleet, and The Motion Picture. For the record the Klingons considered the Constitution refit a BC. Source is dialog from ST III. They refer the the Enterprise as a "Federation Battle Cruiser" When considering the classifacation note the the TV often refers to ships as cruisers even when they are some of that navies most powerful classes.

That could be very much due to the warlike nature of the klinks, a Heavy cruiser for us could be called a battlecruiser by them. Its also sort of like the klingon catchall term; Starship for us, Warbirds for Roms, Battlecruisers for them... Who knows.

From the TNG Tech Manual, the Galaxy class is an "Explorer Class", so you really should take non-SFB hull classifications with a grain of salt. We all know that the primary role of Trek Starfleet is to explore while the role seems to be combat in SFB/SFC Starfleet. Give them some credit, though, as they tried to stay Trekish.

I suggest to take this question easy. Even in present-day navies the designations may be subject to change, as new frigates are often larger than destroyers, and the latter seem to come out of use anyway. In many cases Starfleet probably doesn't know itself how to categorize a new ship class, just like it was with the Defiant. I wouldn't know how to classify the Prometheus, and please don't ask me about the Saber, Steamrunner or Norway either. There is absolutely no clue. Making up terms like "fast attack frigate" or "strike cruiser" and insisting on them is fanboyish and unbecoming of Starfleet.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/miscellaneous.htm

Czar "Humph," Mohab

[Panzergranate]

In SFC 1 having the F-CLH in your squadron has the AI enemy equiped with just Battle Stations in all campaign games.

In SFB, only two F-CL were converted into F-CLH, so in SFC the any model of a Texas Class F-CL should be used.

I would have rather that they just had the F-CL there instead of the F-CLH.

[Age]

Cloaking would be great for Klingons, but only if they had a cloak cost of 1 or less, in which case it would be cheap as all get-out!

Class-for-class, I really hate most Klingon dreadnoughts. Most smaller Klingon ships have great arcs, but things like the C8 have many of their offensive phasers facing only one side, and the disruptor arcs are barely better than FA-only. Compared to many of the Klink dreadnoughts, the C7 has as many or more ph-1, and better arcs. Now, the C8 and C9 have better durability, but I don't think that a Klingon should rely on that durability to win, so it's a dumb design to trade good arcs/maneuverability/efficiency for durability.

About the D7W ... were all D7K/D7L converted to this type eventually? If so, it makes me feel better about abusing command ships.

It would be ok if the cost was that of the same as for Romulans the cloak that is.The only problem is that normal disruptors don't cost that much to recharge as compared to plasma.I can see photons but not disruptors unless the cost is greater than Romulan ships.I wouldn't mind seeing some Feds ships get more power and shielding

I can't think of worst ship of the game atm.

Quote from: Starfox1701 on April 23, 2009, 09:32:12 amI have to disagree here. If you look at the development history for SFB all the X ships come out after the Movies have shown people the refit Constitution and Katinga models. These are both ships that have massive improvements over there TOS counterparts. Because the makers of SFB have no desire to move completely out of the TOS framework they have made for the game the Xships became an alternitive to the true historical development of tech in Star Trek

The only problem is that they never had phasers the Katinga as well as all Klink ships that is.

[Panzergranate]

Klingon Police Ships are only in the game so that the other race's frigates have something that they at least have a chance of beating.

I quite like flying Police Ships, mainly due to the challenge.

They actually give Kzinti frigates a fighting chance of survival.

The SFB G2X Advanced Police Ship is an interesting addition to the Klingon line up.

[Starfox1701]

The Klingons did an X POL? I thought it was there policy to give older frigates and DDs to the internal security forces. Seems like a huge waste of resorces. Can the stand up to the average cruiser of the day long enough for help to come?

[Panzergranate]

The G2X was in response to the increasing ability of Orion Pirate vessels, which kind of outclass the G2 and G2C by this period of SFB timeline.

The improvemets are mainly in drones, engines, power and battery.

The ability to fire X-Drones is a welocome edge.

[Starfox1701]

So while classed as an X ship this is really just incrament system improvement of a class still in production.

[Panzergranate]

Yes, the G2X is basically a G2C refitted with selected X-Technology, just enough to keep up with the improved Orion vessels.

[Spartan-039]

I have to say the I-FF or what ever ship that the ISC gives you at first in SFC OP. It only has 4 phasers, two 1 phasers and two 3 phasers. The only good thing is the anti-missle plasma banks.

[Norsehound]

The Gorn Fleet Resupply ship (G-FCR) was the most hated 'starting spaceship' I've encountered in all of SFC. Seriously, why give us a spaceship without any heavy weapons? You don't even have the boarding parties to justify the lack of heavies. The only time the D-rack comes in handy is if your enemy is using fighters or PFs. Against, say, a pirate two sizes up? Best run away... but every single time!?

 Even Federation Police cutters have a photon to give them some damage potential!

[Spartan-039]

I agree, the only real use for the ship is cannon fodder, send in... say, a hundred and they STILL get blown to pieces by a F-CL or even a advanced destroyer (which kill just about anything really quickly).

[Starfox1701]

An FCR is basicly a light armed freighter not a police cutter it shouldn't have any weapons and they shouldn't start you in it. As for the I-FF it was designed to be a through away ship in the gunline in SFB I guess that didn't translate well in SFC. Basicaly in acordance with ISC stratagy the FFs and DDs die well to protect the bigger ships further back in the formation. They were never really intended for lone patrol work. Thats the Strike Cruisers job in the ISC fleet.

[marstone]

My vote for worst ship is easy, any I pick to fly.  But then that is the captain and not always the ship.

[marstone]

An FCR is basicly a light armed freighter not a police cutter it shouldn't have any weapons and they shouldn't start you in it. As for the I-FF it was designed to be a through away ship in the gunline in SFB I guess that didn't translate well in SFC. Basicaly in acordance with ISC stratagy the FFs and DDs die well to protect the bigger ships further back in the formation. They were never really intended for lone patrol work. Thats the Strike Cruisers job in the ISC fleet.

have to agree here.  The FCR's jobs is to quickly bring fighters and supplies to line carriers.  They are not meant to be in combat, but they are at least armed better then a freighter, and a whole lot faster.

[Norsehound]

Even escort ships on the western side of the galaxy have some effectiveness against an enemy with missiles. The only time you'd be greatful flying a FCR, I imagine, is when the enemy is using fighters/PFs. How often is that in a given scenario?

At least the CLH is better in the sense that you don't start with it.

[marstone]

Even escort ships on the western side of the galaxy have some effectiveness against an enemy with missiles. The only time you'd be greatful flying a FCR, I imagine, is when the enemy is using fighters/PFs. How often is that in a given scenario?

At least the CLH is better in the sense that you don't start with it.

But an FCR isn't an escort.  Now you should never start with an FCR in the game, but it is probably a quirk of the points for it.  FCR's were designed for fleets and campaign level for supply.  An FCR is a nitche ship, never designed for direct combat.  But could do some support if needed when resupplying the carriers of the fleet.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Since so many specialty ships suck, maybe we should talk about bad line or bad command ships, the ones that suck compared to other races' equivalent ships.

I have to say, the G-DD is pretty bad when compared to early-era frigates. Almost any other empire frigate, except the slow Snipe, can take the G-torpedo and kill the Gorn before it can get another shot in.

I'm also not a fan of the Orion ships that depend on finesse (like disruptor or hellbore ones), because in order to dance, they would need to double their engines almost all the time. The crunch pirates can at least load their weapons, then turn on engine doubling while they surge in for the attack, regenerating engines during the "off" time.

[Spartan-039]

I'd say the command cruiser for the Federation, the one Miranda class one, is the worst command ship for the Federation.

[Czar Mohab]

I have to say, the G-DD is pretty bad when compared to early-era frigates. Almost any other empire frigate, except the slow Snipe, can take the G-torpedo and kill the Gorn before it can get another shot in.

I'm also not a fan of the Orion ships that depend on finesse (like disruptor or hellbore ones), because in order to dance, they would need to double their engines almost all the time. The crunch pirates can at least load their weapons, then turn on engine doubling while they surge in for the attack, regenerating engines during the "off" time.

Two comments for 500, Alex:

You'll have to keep in mind that the G-DD was designed for fighting the slow Romulans. Since the Romulans were both technologically retarded and the primary enemy of the Gorn, the Gorn really didn't need to be better than what they had at the time. When the Romulans start getting better tech, so do the Gorn, to try keep their edge. Which, of course, is why the G-DD plays well (or not well, depending on your point of view) with the Snipe.

Dancing Pirates are for Soft Targets - convoy raids, supply raids, blockade running, etc. This is really the true role of the pirates.
Crunchy Pirates are for Hard Targets - shipyard assaults, fleet actions, pirate homeworld raids, etc. They aren't supposed to be heavily armed, but get them angry enough, and you'll find the wolves have teeth.

Dancing Pirates would prefer that thier prey is relatively intact cargo wise, and thus use their small crunch to down a shield and hopefully slow the target. With luck, the target has the cargo that they came for; then they can secure it and bail out before things get too rough. On the other hand, the Crunchy Pirates are there to make a statement, whether it be "This is my shipyard, now!" or "Get of my lawn you young whipper-snappers!" doesn't matter. They need to hurt the big guns enough to complete the mission, and still have a ship to complete the mission with.

These SFBisms are lost in translation to SFC, and is why the Dancing Pirates aren't liked and the G-DD fights Lyrans suckily.

Czar "G-FCR v F-CLH - I'll have to try that one out," Mohab

P.S. Roychipoqua_Mace - Not trying to offend! Honest!

[FPF-Paladin]

I'd say the command cruiser for the Federation, the one Miranda class one, is the worst command ship for the Federation.

Uh... command miranda class.. you don't mean the F-CLC do you?  (sounds like you're referring to it by the stock model type used for it)

Seriously that ship, pound for pound might be the best ship for the cost, counting all races not just federation...

[Spartan-039]

I'm talking in action against ships of similar designations across the galaxy, I tried and the command ship I used was torn to pieces, altough that day wasn't a good one for me. I prefer to have ships that can tear something up  and get out fast. Command cruisers aren't my cup of tea.

[Starfox1701]

Most CCs are just CAs or CLs with command bridges. They should play just like there counterpart except its a bit harder to knockout there controles.

[FPF-Paladin]

I'm talking in action against ships of similar designations across the galaxy, I tried and the command ship I used was torn to pieces, altough that day wasn't a good one for me. I prefer to have ships that can tear something up  and get out fast. Command cruisers aren't my cup of tea.

Well, if line/command ships aren't your thing plus it was a bad day for you, I can see how that could happen.  Those types are my favorites but I'd be first to admit they have to be handled and power managed a certain way to get the most out of them, and a CL hull isn't going to be very forgiving of too many mistakes in a battle.

[Czar Mohab]

The honest to goodness worst ship in SFC (any version to date) is the one that you just captured. This ship is the worst no matter which race owned it, no matter what the hull class is, or anything else, with no exceptions - even if you owned it and recaptured it - simply because you don't get to keep it (unless it was yours to begin with, but then, do you really want to keep it??) after the mission. There's no point in taking home a K-B11 if all the Hegemony's going to do is keep it for themselves. And forget the ROC, Freddy boy - no covert ops in Rommy space for you!

I find that often it takes more skill to capture a relatively intact ship during a mission than it is to blast it down to 1% and capture it, or even to just blow it up. If I take that kind of time and care, delicately carving "MOHAB'S NEW TOY" in the hull with phaser fire, I should at the very least keep said toy.

But no - despite all the (very few) "captured" hulls that do exist in the game as playable, you'll never get your new toy, and thus, capturing that ship may be useful to the current mission (added phasers on your side, meat shield, mission objective, whatever), but afterwards, it becomes the WORST SHIP EVER.

~~~

I'm confused over the discussion over the Miranda like CC - Do you mean the F-CLC as stated or the F-CLM (Miranda Class)? The F-CLC is meant more like a CL leader variant, and not a true CC - Meaning you should find a squadron of CLs, NCLs, maybe a DD or FF hull or two and one of the CLCs. Not meant for "rough and tumble" like a CA or full CC, just a little "rough" and not any "tumble".

As to the Miranda Class (CLM) - This is one of those SFB meets newer-Trek ships that was added for flavor, much like the K'Tinga and F-BCE. The ships were added because they were in the movies and someone decided that they would like to have them in the game. I personally don't care for the "movie" ships, but I find the CLM to be better than the others in most regards. The BCE has retarded phaser arcs and photons on a Klingon ship throw it off balance from the rest of the fleet. With the CLM you get all the perks of the base hull class but with a nice surprise in ability to cover your butt. She opens up many new avenues of tactical combat for the Feds that generally are unavailable in other classes, including the F-BB, and can hang in a firefight a little longer than her counterparts.

Czar "This has become an interesting topic," Mohab

[knightstorm]

The honest to goodness worst ship in SFC (any version to date) is the one that you just captured. This ship is the worst no matter which race owned it, no matter what the hull class is, or anything else, with no exceptions - even if you owned it and recaptured it - simply because you don't get to keep it (unless it was yours to begin with, but then, do you really want to keep it??) after the mission. There's no point in taking home a K-B11 if all the Hegemony's going to do is keep it for themselves. And forget the ROC, Freddy boy - no covert ops in Rommy space for you!

I find that often it takes more skill to capture a relatively intact ship during a mission than it is to blast it down to 1% and capture it, or even to just blow it up. If I take that kind of time and care, delicately carving "MOHAB'S NEW TOY" in the hull with phaser fire, I should at the very least keep said toy.

But no - despite all the (very few) "captured" hulls that do exist in the game as playable, you'll never get your new toy, and thus, capturing that ship may be useful to the current mission (added phasers on your side, meat shield, mission objective, whatever), but afterwards, it becomes the WORST SHIP EVER.

~~~

I'm confused over the discussion over the Miranda like CC - Do you mean the F-CLC as stated or the F-CLM (Miranda Class)? The F-CLC is meant more like a CL leader variant, and not a true CC - Meaning you should find a squadron of CLs, NCLs, maybe a DD or FF hull or two and one of the CLCs. Not meant for "rough and tumble" like a CA or full CC, just a little "rough" and not any "tumble".

As to the Miranda Class (CLM) - This is one of those SFB meets newer-Trek ships that was added for flavor, much like the K'Tinga and F-BCE. The ships were added because they were in the movies and someone decided that they would like to have them in the game. I personally don't care for the "movie" ships, but I find the CLM to be better than the others in most regards. The BCE has retarded phaser arcs and photons on a Klingon ship throw it off balance from the rest of the fleet. With the CLM you get all the perks of the base hull class but with a nice surprise in ability to cover your butt. She opens up many new avenues of tactical combat for the Feds that generally are unavailable in other classes, including the F-BB, and can hang in a firefight a little longer than her counterparts.

Czar "This has become an interesting topic," Mohab

I agree with you for the most part.  However, sometimes the AI does spawn ships which are useful for your mission if captured, ie. a mauler on a base assault.  Grab it, and use it for what it was designed to do.  As for the movie ships, the big thing that I despise about them is the lack of point defense.  CAI (movie Enterprise) is pretty much the CB without the drones and amd, and the forward/360 phaser arcs reversed.  Its a pretty good ship if you're not going against drones, and the extra 360 phasers make it better at phaserboating.  As for the NCM, I do enjoy the rear photon arc, but I really wish it had either more power, or some AMD any day of the week.  I would have to agree with you on the BCE, but I don't think the D7T is that bad.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

These SFBisms are lost in translation to SFC, and is why the Dancing Pirates aren't liked and the G-DD fights Lyrans suckily.

Czar "G-FCR v F-CLH - I'll have to try that one out," Mohab

P.S. Roychipoqua_Mace - Not trying to offend! Honest![/color]

Nah, no offense taken. Thanks for the info. I have gotten used to the arena-style of SFC, where an empire's ship can face any equal-BPV ship of a different race -- and BPV and era, not geography or historical enemies, are the only limitations.


I guess the Miranda's rear arc is good sometimes, like an "ace in the sleeve." My biggest problem with it is that whenever you would need to point the ship away from the enemy (like avoiding a plasma ship who is intent on getting within range 2.5), the photons would have to be off to have a decent amount of power/speed. So if you can manage slowing down and charging the photons, you don't really need the get-away factor of the rear arc after all. Now, it would be neat to have FH arc photons or something like that, so you could skim overload range, fire, and peel away with less risk.

What does everyone think of the Hydran NCAs/NCCs? The Hydran versions of the CCH have more power, phasers, and hull (but I have to check the list to see) than the NCCs. And things like the H-CHC have those nice split hellbore arcs. Most of the other races at least have NCCs with some advantages over their CCHs, but the Hydran ones aren't even cheaper than their old-school counterparts...

[Lieutenant_Q]

I love taking the NCM against any Romulan ship.  Take the forward phasers offline and keep the aft photons loaded with Proxies.  If he's a cloaker, wait til he decloaks and hit him with a spread of torpedoes.  If he's not a cloaker, you can constantly worry his #1 shield until its down.  At that point, he has to break off.  The BCE has that advantage as well.  While I don't care for the lack of a 360 phasers on it, the Phaser arcs do cover the ship well enough.  And it has even more power to spare.

[Spartan-039]

I do like the the F-BC's they are nice looking and are powerful. I especially like the Bismark varient, alaways have. Maybe it's just because the name is from the German battleship... Oh well.

[Norsehound]

I like the NCM too. The photon versatility is a nice bonus, but I wish it also had some AMD. Interestingly enough the D7T has AMD equipped, and so does the bird of prey (unquestionably the weakest of the movie fleet).

I thought the CAI was a decent ship too. Haven't flown enough of the excelsiors or K'tingas to comment on them.

[knightstorm]

The biggest advantage of the NCM is that the rear firing torps make it easier to hit the plasma ships forward arc without eating plasma.  I find that in fed vs. plasma matchups, it often comes down to their forward shields vs. your aft shields.

[Spartan-039]

I do like the I-BC's especially the advanced bombardment cruisers. They give me over eight type F plasma torpedoes. One broadside is enough to take out many of the smaller ships and it allows me to punch a hole in the shields of even the largest ships.