Topic: Treknology: Cargo Bays

[toasty0]

While reading your post Nem I kept thinking "sabre dance" and then you finally wrote it.

The only manuaver the fed can do effectively against a good sabre dancce is...

Nope, not gonna post it for all to see, but even then, a good Klingon warrior captain will crack that Fed too.

[Nemesis]

While reading your post Nem I kept thinking "sabre dance" and then you finally wrote it.

The only manuaver the fed can do effectively against a good sabre dancce is...

Every ship has its own style and that style needs to be adapted to the opposing ship (or ships) and how it is being used.  Some know one style and use that regardless of the opponent and regardless of the ship they themselves fly.  This occasionally leads to very strange battles. 

[knightstorm]

Where you see efficient warp design, I see a poorly made piece of ^&*(^.  Also, I decided to post the results of my Rorshach test because I thought the other members of the community would be proud to know that they've been a bad influence on me.

When the undersized ship can and does defeat the larger vessel the undersized one is not the one that is poorly designed. 

Lets consider the Federation propaganda campaign against the Klingon D7.  The Federation published 2 SSDs purporting to show what happens when a F-CA and a K-D7 exchange alpha strikes at range 0.  They neglect to consider several factors.

1/  The K-D7 does not deliver its alpha strike on the forward center line like the F-CA.  It delivers it on the 60^o port and starboard angles.  If you revise the damage based on this the damage allocation is far different.  The K-D7 then fires 2 more Ph-2 doing 10-12 more internals.  The Federation damage also is then split between 2 shields reducing the internal damage by 22 points.

2/ If you assume that both ships are using all their power and had competently filled their phaser capacitor before approaching and approached at the same speed the K-D7 would have 3 extra points of power (It says much that the Federation automatically assumed incompetence by their Captains).  This could be used either for ECM or shield reinforcement, either of which would reduce the damage the K-D7 took.

3/ The K-D7 can and does use its superior maneuverability to do as Kahless advised to apply their strength against the opponents weakness and compel the opponent to apply their weakness against Klingon strength.  This would apply the damage to a weaker shield on the Federation ship increasing the damage done while preventing the Federation from firing its Alpha Strike at all let alone at optimum range.  This reduces the damage received by the K-D7 while maximizing that which the F-CA takes.

4/ It doesn't allow for using the full power of the Klingon vessel by using such things as the scatter pack or T-Bombs.  The scatterpack alone would increase the internals by another 72 points.   Effective T-Bombing can add another 50 points.    Each missile and T-Bomb having its damage allocated separately this creates a very effective Mizia attack. 

So you see the K-D7 is capable of dishing out far more damage while not allowing the F-CA to use its full potential.  The fact is that those who command Klingon vessels use finesse (the Sabre Dance) vs the rush in and pound of the drunken bar room fighting of the Federation.  I suppose that the Federation using liquid courage to drive their battle "strategy" is better than if they had no courage at all.

1. The Klingons are based on the Soviet Union, are you going to argue that Soviet tech is good?
2. It requires a lot more training to be able to handle Klingon ships competently in battle.  This should not be necessary for a purpose built warship.
3. The fact that fed ships which are built primarily as explorers can fight against Klingon purpose built warships demonstrates the inferiority of Klingon tech.
4. Efficient warp design and Efficient combat design are two different things.

[Panzergranate]

On Klingon starshups, cargo should be relablled "Beer / Bloodwine / Booze" or just "Booze" to simplify things.

On Lyran and Kzinti ships, most probally a large supply of "Kitty Litters" as in space one can't take a dump in a neighbour's flower bed or kid's sand pit.

If you read some of the technical manuials, and even pay attention to the TV shows, some things have defied replicator technology. Alcoholic beverages are another thing mentioned.

Dylithium Crystals, radio isotopes, certain metals and composites, etc. are notalble, by plot lines, as being impossible to replicate, so need cargo storage space.

Latinum is one thing mentioned in DS9 that is impossible to replicate. Also replicators need bulk raw material to replicate certain large components.

Then there is all the survival rations that need to be stored for those moments when there is no power available for use.

Another use for Cargo Bays is to have somewhere to place the replicated parts prior to assembly of some large assembly.

[toasty0]

Where you see efficient warp design, I see a poorly made piece of ^&*(^.  Also, I decided to post the results of my Rorshach test because I thought the other members of the community would be proud to know that they've been a bad influence on me.

When the undersized ship can and does defeat the larger vessel the undersized one is not the one that is poorly designed. 

Lets consider the Federation propaganda campaign against the Klingon D7.  The Federation published 2 SSDs purporting to show what happens when a F-CA and a K-D7 exchange alpha strikes at range 0.  They neglect to consider several factors.

1/  The K-D7 does not deliver its alpha strike on the forward center line like the F-CA.  It delivers it on the 60^o port and starboard angles.  If you revise the damage based on this the damage allocation is far different.  The K-D7 then fires 2 more Ph-2 doing 10-12 more internals.  The Federation damage also is then split between 2 shields reducing the internal damage by 22 points.

2/ If you assume that both ships are using all their power and had competently filled their phaser capacitor before approaching and approached at the same speed the K-D7 would have 3 extra points of power (It says much that the Federation automatically assumed incompetence by their Captains).  This could be used either for ECM or shield reinforcement, either of which would reduce the damage the K-D7 took.

3/ The K-D7 can and does use its superior maneuverability to do as Kahless advised to apply their strength against the opponents weakness and compel the opponent to apply their weakness against Klingon strength.  This would apply the damage to a weaker shield on the Federation ship increasing the damage done while preventing the Federation from firing its Alpha Strike at all let alone at optimum range.  This reduces the damage received by the K-D7 while maximizing that which the F-CA takes.

4/ It doesn't allow for using the full power of the Klingon vessel by using such things as the scatter pack or T-Bombs.  The scatterpack alone would increase the internals by another 72 points.   Effective T-Bombing can add another 50 points.    Each missile and T-Bomb having its damage allocated separately this creates a very effective Mizia attack. 

So you see the K-D7 is capable of dishing out far more damage while not allowing the F-CA to use its full potential.  The fact is that those who command Klingon vessels use finesse (the Sabre Dance) vs the rush in and pound of the drunken bar room fighting of the Federation.  I suppose that the Federation using liquid courage to drive their battle "strategy" is better than if they had no courage at all.

1. The Klingons are based on the Soviet Union, are you going to argue that Soviet tech is good?

Ha! Maybe in the tv, but in SFC and SFB Klingon ships ruled the space from here to there.

2. It requires a lot more training to be able to handle Klingon ships competently in battle.  This should not be necessary for a purpose built warship.

I can understand your misconception not being a real warrior of a real warrior race.

3. The fact that fed ships which are built primarily as explorers can fight against Klingon purpose built warships demonstrates the inferiority of Klingon tech.

Another Freddie myth...oh, who us...we come in peace they claim as they enslave thousands with their lies.

4. Efficient warp design and Efficient combat design are two different things.

And you would do well to learn both from Klingons.

[Nemesis]

1. The Klingons are based on the Soviet Union, are you going to argue that Soviet tech is good?

I've seen all sorts of claims of what the Klingons are based on. 

Consider the Klingon Empire was clearly from the begining a warrior culture.  Were the Soviets a warrior culture?  There is very little of the Soviet Russian in them. 

At most I see the U.S. - Russia cold war on the verge of flaring up to full scale war being emulated by the Federation - Klingon relationship. 

I understand that at least some of the Russian tanks were excellent, but not handled well vs the Germans in WWII - the Germans had the training the Russians had the quality. 

2. It requires a lot more training to be able to handle Klingon ships competently in battle.  This should not be necessary for a purpose built warship.

Refer to above - warrior culture.  Train early, train hard lose fewer in battle.  The incompetent don't survive training or get demoted to infantry.

Don't forget Kor beat Kirk.  The Organians had to rewrite the rules to give Kirk a draw.

3. The fact that fed ships which are built primarily as explorers can fight against Klingon purpose built warships demonstrates the inferiority of Klingon tech.

The Fed ships are multi purpose but the F-GCS is the TRUE explorer design.  The F-CA while capable of surveying is not primarily an explorer.  It lacks long range probes and scout sensors.  It is a warship that can perform exploration roles, but so can the D7.

4. Efficient warp design and Efficient combat design are two different things.

Its survival without a major over haul proves it to be well designed.  As listed earlier the evolution from K-D7 to K-D7K upgraded weapons but only added 1 new weapons mount.  The F-CA to F-CAR+ added 6 which show its design inadequacies, it didn't even have real rear defenses.

[Panzergranate]

Just like the WW2 Douglas Devestator was painted bright orange and yellow to give Japanese AA gunners a clearer target, the concentric red rings are in fact aiming and targetting aids for Klingon gunners.

A more interesting questio to raise is whay are Kzinti starships brown and why are Lyran starships yellow??

Klingon D7 hulls have more than enough weapons already and so don't need improving.

If a even more weapons are required there are always the C7 or L7 battlecruisers to dominate the battle with.

As for Federation starships, the phrase, "We Come In Peace...." sums up the weapons strategy in place with them.

[Nemesis]

As for Federation starships, the phrase, "We Come In Peace...." sums up the weapons strategy in place with them.

Federation diplomacy as described by the wanted Federation eco-terrorist Commander Montgomery Scott.

Diplomats! The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

Klingon D7 hulls have more than enough weapons already and so don't need improving.

Translation the K-D7 was designed competently so when the resources were available they could be enhanced at minimal cost and with minimal changes.

The F-CA on the other hand was poorly designed and had to be remodeled.

[Panzergranate]

With the C7 and later L7, the Klingons began to explore the possibility of "Overkill" when it came to firepower.

Amongst the Alpha quadrant races, Klingon cruisers are in the place they deserve.... FIRST PLACE!!

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

With the C7 and later L7, the Klingons began to explore the possibility of "Overkill" when it came to firepower.

Amongst the Alpha quadrant races, Klingon cruisers are in the place they deserve.... FIRST PLACE!!

Do you know of any online SSD for the L7? I looked and it is not on the SFB list of ships, but it sounds interesting... I never liked the FD7.

[Panzergranate]

The L7 is basically the C7 with two more engines and 4 more Disrupters added, giving a total of 8 x Dis3 in the forward firng arc.

Their role is as a fast battlecruiser, using the Federation concept of engine switching to enable maximum velocity for extended periods.

By diagonally pairing engines and switching between idle and flat out running, as nachelle tempertures rise to critical, an L7 can crusie at maximum velocity for several days, if required.

The L7 fulfills the same roles as the Federation TMP Constellation, Chetah, TOS Hamilton and Hamilcar Classes using identical methods.

An L7 is basically a 4 engined C7, unlike the SFB D7 "Bullet Cruiser" experiment, which was a 4 engined D7 hull.

I posted a SFC 1 L7 model on Battleclinic last year.

[Czar Mohab]

If you read some of the technical manuials, and even pay attention to the TV shows, some things have defied replicator technology. Alcoholic beverages are another thing mentioned.

Alcohol can be replicated. See the episode of Voyager where Tom and that alien switch bodies - "Tom" gets drunk, Janeway calls him on it saying he'd replicated ALCOHOLIC beverages while still on duty. There are other examples, too.

Syntehol (synthetic alcohol) is what you're thinking of... a Ferengi invention that simulates alcohol... the goal was they'd drink the fake while their "prey" would drink the real deal...

Also, SOME alcohols can't be replicated. But, overall, it can be. Assuming replicator tech existed at all.

Czar Mohab

[Panzergranate]

Quark sells American Root Beer, which has a pretty feebly weak alcohol content compared to UK and European Beers. Over here it would be regarded as a soft drink and is sold as such, where found.

It seems Ales are something that seem to defy replicators, as Romulan Ale and Brandy are popular smuggled items in the Federation and a parody of the pointless joke US ban on Cuban Cigars in the US.

[marstone]

Quark sells American Root Beer, which has a pretty feebly weak alcohol content compared to UK and European Beers. Over here it would be regarded as a soft drink and is sold as such, where found.

It seems Ales are something that seem to defy replicators, as Romulan Ale and Brandy are popular smuggled items in the Federation and a parody of the pointless joke US ban on Cuban Cigars in the US.

Hmmmm, American Root Beer is non alcholic unless you get naturally carbinated version, then it only has a touch from the fermintation to carbinate the soda.  It is a soft drink.

Cuban Cigar ban here in the US.  Started by J.F.K. is basicly just a punitive enbargo on their major output.  Symbolic not truely pointless.  But then J.F.K still had Cuban cigars sent in diplomatic pouches back so he could smoke them.

[knightstorm]

Alcohol can be replicated. See the episode of Voyager where Tom and that alien switch bodies - "Tom" gets drunk, Janeway calls him on it saying he'd replicated ALCOHOLIC beverages while still on duty. There are other examples, too.

Syntehol (synthetic alcohol) is what you're thinking of... a Ferengi invention that simulates alcohol... the goal was they'd drink the fake while their "prey" would drink the real deal...

Also, SOME alcohols can't be replicated. But, overall, it can be. Assuming replicator tech existed at all.

Czar Mohab[/color]

No.  Synthehol is used because the effects can be dismissed more quickly.  In case the officer in question is suddenly called to duty.

[Panzergranate]

They also replicate flatuence free Beans, Swede, etc. thus taking the only remaining fun aspect out of healthy eating.

In the 23rd Century, the Nanny State is in full effect.... Picard does describe the Federation as being "Socialist" in its principles, and if you look closely, it is.

This isn't that bad though, as health care is free for all, food is free for all, etc. and private small enterprise flourishes without the all powerful giant corporation smothering them out of existance from birth.

The Federation seems devoid of money exchange, unless trading with outside races, such as the Ferengi. Janeway remarks that she finds the concept of having to use money to pay for things strange and alien, in one episode of Voyager.

[knightstorm]

I've seen all sorts of claims of what the Klingons are based on. 

Consider the Klingon Empire was clearly from the begining a warrior culture.  Were the Soviets a warrior culture?  There is very little of the Soviet Russian in them. 

At most I see the U.S. - Russia cold war on the verge of flaring up to full scale war being emulated by the Federation - Klingon relationship. 

I understand that at least some of the Russian tanks were excellent, but not handled well vs the Germans in WWII - the Germans had the training the Russians had the quality. 

I'll concede that WWII Russian tanks were good, but they tended to be behind in everything else.  Also, while their postwar assault rifles did have excellent reputations for reliability, they often had to cut corners to keep up with the US.  I remember reading somewhere that most of their cold war era nulcear submariners ended up dying from cancer.

Refer to above - warrior culture.  Train early, train hard lose fewer in battle.  The incompetent don't survive training or get demoted to infantry.

Don't forget Kor beat Kirk.  The Organians had to rewrite the rules to give Kirk a draw.
.

build ships that are simpler to use, focus on more advanced tactics.  Also, if I remember correctly, Kor had Kirk badly outnumbered.

The Fed ships are multi purpose but the F-GCS is the TRUE explorer design.  The F-CA while capable of surveying is not primarily an explorer.  It lacks long range probes and scout sensors.  It is a warship that can perform exploration roles, but so can the D7.

F-CA is built for long term survey cruises.  It has more labs, and its engines are designed for operating for extended periods of time at relatively high speeds.  It also requires greater habitability.  Hence the greater size that you keep harping on.  The D7 could avoid adding new mounts because increasing its fire power was merely a matter of upgrading some of the inferior phaser mountings that it was built with.

[knightstorm]

They also replicate flatuence free Beans, Swede, etc. thus taking the only remaining fun aspect out of healthy eating.

So its a nanny state principle to not want your crew to be keeled over drunk if your ship should suddenly come under fire.

[Panzergranate]

Klingons go into battle drunk, more often than not, and still come out on top.

It's probally because the Federation crews cannot hold their liquour than alcohol is banned on warships.

Another reason is that "Politically Correct" training and tact takes a back burner when a crewman is full of alcohol.

[toasty0]

Klingons are never drunk...they're just less tense.