Topic: Treknology: Cargo Bays

[Panzergranate]

The other use of Cargo Bays is to store the heavy weapons, vehicles and equipment for troops for SFB planetside missions.

In SFC, the elaboration of the full use of Cargo Space useage or the tables of troop equipment versus space.

Another use of Cargo is to transport spare fighters or shuttles in CKD (Completely Knocked Down) state for resuplimenting of carriers and the like.

A lot of the usefulness and essentiality of Cargo Boxes is not apparent in SFC, other than as a hit location.

[Nemesis]

build ships that are simpler to use, focus on more advanced tactics.  Also, if I remember correctly, Kor had Kirk badly outnumbered.

Outnumbered yes with garrison troops equipped to pacify people with medieval technology.  He also was unaware of there being Federation officers on the planet.   Kirks disguise and actions make him both a spy and a terrorist.  Kor with Garrison troops not knowing who or what he faced beat Kirk while maintaining his control of the planet.  Kirk at least knew who and what he was fighting and still lost.

F-CA is built for long term survey cruises.  It has more labs, and its engines are designed for operating for extended periods of time at relatively high speeds.  It also requires greater habitability.  Hence the greater size that you keep harping on.  The D7 could avoid adding new mounts because increasing its fire power was merely a matter of upgrading some of the inferior phaser mountings that it was built with.

Compare the F-CA to the actual F-GCS survey cruiser. 

You will notice the CA is deficient in several areas:

special sensors
transporters
shuttles
drones for probes
defensive weapons.

The actual survey ship on the other hand though it can function as a CVL is lacking in offensive firepower. 

Now consider the Klingon survey ship.  Like the F-GCS it has special sensors.  It doesn't gain transporters, or drones because the Klingon ships are better equipped that way to start.  It does however take a big hit in offensive firepower being traded for defensive.  The same applies to the Romulan Survey ship.

Now answer the question why would the Federation keep making CA class ships during the Galactic War instead of making actual specialized warships?  The Vulcans would surely explain the illogic in not making specialized CAs.  Why also does this supposed exploration ship lack the common components of those explicitly exploration ships while having the full OFFENSIVE armaments of the CA it is named as? 

Is the Federation "We come in peace" real or is it a lie?  This as you call it survey ship is far heavier armed than the Klingon survey ship which of us is the eonquerer?

As to the high speed long range ability with few exceptions (Tholian and Wyn) all the CAs should have that ability = deep strikes are only possible if you have them.  Just consider how far Klingon ships sold to the Romulans had to travel to get to Romulus for refitting to Romulan weapons and control systems.  Not possible without that high speed and long range ability and those were versions we were willing to sell.

The F-CA needs the greater habitability because the crew is soft, it is not warrior trained and is unable to endure without luxury.  The Klingon ship and crew constitute a lean mean fighting machine.  The Federation ships reflect their crews - fat and lazy.

Klingons go into battle drunk, more often than not, and still come out on top.

I for one don't drink. 

I do insist on the same rules for drinking of the old French Foreign Legion.  Namely there are none.  However there are harch punishments for rendering yourself unfit for duty.

[Panzergranate]

The Klingons only have 1 x D6E and 1 x D7E Exploration Ships, though their mission is more of locating and securing rescouces and territory for the Empire.

The "special" D7 sleeper ship, in the TNG episode, that was described as having been on a 76 year deep exploration mission, may have been a or the D7E "Inquisator".

The D6E has both Disrupters replaced by Special Sensors, where as the D7E only loses 1 x Disrupter on each engine nachelle.

Compared to a F-CA, the D7E is more than well armed, able to subdue and conquer weaker worlds all alone.

[knightstorm]

1. You can still get drunk on synthohol.  The difference is that you can reverse its effects with a simple injection if the officer is needed for duty.  This is a lot faster than the klingon method of having the officer's subordinate challenge him to a fight to the death if he believes him unfit for duty, which may leave the officer's post unfilled while the fight is going on.
2. Why continue to build CAs, after the war starts.  There are several reasons.  While the CA series are not purpose built warships they don't suck in the role either.  Wars eventually end, and the CAs at least have a peace time use.  Also, the federation did build purpose built warships to supplement the CAs in the form of the NCL, NCA, and BCH lines.
3. If the F-CA wasn't built to function as an exploration ship, WTF was Kirk doing for five years, besides getting laid?  As far as range and habitability, most wartime missions can be completed in weeks, but a F-CA is meant to be away from port for months.

[toasty0]

1. You can still get drunk on synthohol.  The difference is that you can reverse its effects with a simple injection if the officer is needed for duty.  This is a lot faster than the klingon method of having the officer's subbordinate challenge him to a fight to the death if he believes him unfit for duty, which may leave the officer's post unfilled while the fight is going on.
2. Why continue to build CAs, after the war starts.  There are several reasons.  While the CA series are not purpose built warships they don't suck in the role either.  Wars eventually end, and the CAs at least have a peace time use.  Also, the federation did build purpose built warships to supplement the CAs in the form of the NCL, and BCH lines.
3. If the F-CA wasn't built to function as an exploration ship, WTF was Kirk doing for five years, besides getting laid?  As far as range and habitability, most wartime missions can be completed in weeks, but a F-CA is meant to be away from port for months.

Kirk spent 5 years avoiding Bone's jealousies and trying not come out of the transporter over Spock. Ever notice how he kept tugging at his tunic like a school girl ajusting her bra starp?

Chang would never have done that!

[Nemesis]

2. Why continue to build CAs, after the war starts.  There are several reasons.  While the CA series are not purpose built warships they don't suck in the role either.  Wars eventually end, and the CAs at least have a peace time use.  Also, the federation did build purpose built warships to supplement the CAs in the form of the NCL, NCA, and BCH lines.

Not convincing.  The CA is the backbone of the fleet.  Not having a military optimized version when you could would be foolishly crippling  your forces.

Why also build an optimized F-GCS if the F-CA was already an optimized GCS?

3. If the F-CA wasn't built to function as an exploration ship, WTF was Kirk doing for five years, besides getting laid?  As far as range and habitability, most wartime missions can be completed in weeks, but a F-CA is meant to be away from port for months.

Consider real history.  Many early exploration ships were warships.  Even the Beagle that Darwin sailed on was a small warship.

Note what I said about the F-CA:

The F-CA while capable of surveying is not primarily an explorer.  It lacks long range probes and scout sensors.  It is a warship that can perform exploration roles, but so can the D7.

Exploration is a secondary issue with it. 

In spite of the so called "5 year mission" Kirk was almost always far closer to port than months away.  Check the number of times they are the closest ship to deal with an issue WITHIN the Federation. 

[Nemesis]

The Klingons only have 1 x D6E and 1 x D7E Exploration Ships, though their mission is more of locating and securing rescouces and territory for the Empire.

Consider the F&E map.  The Klingon Empire has no direct frontier.  Those pure exploration ships operate beyond Lyran space.  It is one of the reasons the Empire needs to conquer the Kzinti and Hydrans, access to unclaimed space.

The "special" D7 sleeper ship, in the TNG episode, that was described as having been on a 76 year deep exploration mission, may have been a or the D7E "Inquisator".

That episode was STUPID.  Consider how effective a WWII sleeper ship would be if it were to attack today.  Why would the Klingons think that a single ship obsolete by decades attacking targets equally obsolete would be of any use?   

The D6E has both Disrupters replaced by Special Sensors, where as the D7E only loses 1 x Disrupter on each engine nachelle.

Compared to a F-CA, the D7E is more than well armed, able to subdue and conquer weaker worlds all alone.

ANY armed SFB ship (even the sublight ones) could devastate the Earth of today.

Consider the damage capability of a single admin shuttle if it were to attack Earth today.  We have nothing with which to counterstrike it.  Replace it with a police ship of any race and the situation is far worse as the shuttle at least has limited life support.  A minesweeper would be devastating with the transporting of T-Bombs into a city.

[knightstorm]

Not convincing.  The CA is the backbone of the fleet.  Not having a military optimized version when you could would be foolishly crippling  your forces.

Why also build an optimized F-GCS if the F-CA was already an optimized GCS?

Like I said, its not optimized, but it still performs the role satisfactorily.  As for why would they continue to build the GCS, its to perform roles that are still necessary, but less of a priority.   

Consider real history.  Many early exploration ships were warships.  Even the Beagle that Darwin sailed on was a small warship.

Note what I said about the F-CA:
The F-CA while capable of surveying is not primarily an explorer.  It lacks long range probes and scout sensors.  It is a warship that can perform exploration roles, but so can the D7.

Exploration is a secondary issue with it. 

In spite of the so called "5 year mission" Kirk was almost always far closer to port than months away.  Check the number of times they are the closest ship to deal with an issue WITHIN the Federation.

Exploration is the CA's primary concern, although defense is also an issue.  Its an exploration ship that can fight if necessary.  The kind of incidents that Kirk responded to were ones that tend to happen at the edge of the empire, where a ship on an exploration mission could very well be the closest ship to respond.

[toasty0]

The fact that Federation controled space it referred to as an emprire is telling and the Feddy's true intent.

But we Klingons, true warriors of honor, are here to protect space from the spandex horde. 

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

But we Klingons, true warriors of honor, are here to protect space from the spandex horde. 

Bubble wrap belts are definitely better, if you have to choose between the two!

[marstone]

Not convincing.  The CA is the backbone of the fleet.  Not having a military optimized version when you could would be foolishly crippling  your forces.

Why also build an optimized F-GCS if the F-CA was already an optimized GCS?

Like I said, its not optimized, but it still performs the role satisfactorily.  As for why would they continue to build the GCS, its to perform roles that are still necessary, but less of a priority.   

Consider real history.  Many early exploration ships were warships.  Even the Beagle that Darwin sailed on was a small warship.

Note what I said about the F-CA:
The F-CA while capable of surveying is not primarily an explorer.  It lacks long range probes and scout sensors.  It is a warship that can perform exploration roles, but so can the D7.

Exploration is a secondary issue with it. 

In spite of the so called "5 year mission" Kirk was almost always far closer to port than months away.  Check the number of times they are the closest ship to deal with an issue WITHIN the Federation.

Exploration is the CA's primary concern, although defense is also an issue.  Its an exploration ship that can fight if necessary.  The kind of incidents that Kirk responded to were ones that tend to happen at the edge of the empire, where a ship on an exploration mission could very well be the closest ship to respond.

The Fed CA from what I know from SFB is a warship that has as a role exploration.  It isn't a purpose built survey ship, it does have extra lab spaces that are nothing more then extra padding in SFB but serve a purpose for exploring and analysis.  Compare to a D7 who has barely anough labs to analyse a piece of toast (a true warship).

The F-CA was to find the new stuff, see what was up.  Then a dedicated survey ship would finish the job (safer for the survey ship to come in after the area was checked by the CA).

Thus IMHO the F-CA is a hybrid, built to cover two missions, does both well, but doesn't excell at either, but is a better warship.

[toasty0]

Not convincing.  The CA is the backbone of the fleet.  Not having a military optimized version when you could would be foolishly crippling  your forces.

Why also build an optimized F-GCS if the F-CA was already an optimized GCS?

Like I said, its not optimized, but it still performs the role satisfactorily.  As for why would they continue to build the GCS, its to perform roles that are still necessary, but less of a priority.   

Consider real history.  Many early exploration ships were warships.  Even the Beagle that Darwin sailed on was a small warship.

Note what I said about the F-CA:
The F-CA while capable of surveying is not primarily an explorer.  It lacks long range probes and scout sensors.  It is a warship that can perform exploration roles, but so can the D7.

Exploration is a secondary issue with it. 

In spite of the so called "5 year mission" Kirk was almost always far closer to port than months away.  Check the number of times they are the closest ship to deal with an issue WITHIN the Federation.

Exploration is the CA's primary concern, although defense is also an issue.  Its an exploration ship that can fight if necessary.  The kind of incidents that Kirk responded to were ones that tend to happen at the edge of the empire, where a ship on an exploration mission could very well be the closest ship to respond.

The Fed CA from what I know from SFB is a warship that has as a role exploration.  It isn't a purpose built survey ship, it does have extra lab spaces that are nothing more then extra padding in SFB but serve a purpose for exploring and analysis.  Compare to a D7 who has barely anough labs to analyse a piece of toast (a true warship).

The F-CA was to find the new stuff, see what was up.  Then a dedicated survey ship would finish the job (safer for the survey ship to come in after the area was checked by the CA).

Of course. Now that the military forces have softened up any resistance, the occupation forces arrive to survey the damge. Typical Federation tactic.

Thus IMHO the F-CA is a hybrid, built to cover two missions, does both well, but doesn't excell at either, but is a better warship.

[Nemesis]

The Fed CA from what I know from SFB is a warship that has as a role exploration.  It isn't a purpose built survey ship, it does have extra lab spaces that are nothing more then extra padding in SFB but serve a purpose for exploring and analysis.  Compare to a D7 who has barely anough labs to analyse a piece of toast (a true warship).

The F-CA has one adjustment for purposes of surveying the the extra labs.  That one adjustment improves its survey ability but it lacks the other enhancements of a proper survey ship.

The K-D7 has half as many labs but can use probe drones to supplement them (which the base F-CA cannot do).  Given being equipped with probe drones a K-D7 can do as much surveying as a F-CA.

The F-CA was to find the new stuff, see what was up.  Then a dedicated survey ship would finish the job (safer for the survey ship to come in after the area was checked by the CA).

Based on a quick over view of the episodes of TOS in most of them the Enterprise would have been patrolling previously explored territory "exploration" merely confined to confirming past exploration.  In Charley X for example they picked him up after he was dropped off by a real science ship.  Most of the rest of the series they were near the borders of the Klingon/Romulan/Tholian borders, far from unoccupied space.

[knightstorm]

I was under the impression that the GSA was geared towards locating resources, while the CA was meant for general scientific exploration.  Also, civilian science vessels that the Enterprise encountered were chartered by private entities as opposed to Starfleet.

[knightstorm]

But we Klingons, true warriors of honor, are here to protect space from the spandex horde. 

Sort of like a greater galactic co-prosperity sphere?

[marstone]

I was under the impression that the GSA was geared towards locating resources, while the CA was meant for general scientific exploration.  Also, civilian science vessels that the Enterprise encountered were chartered by private entities as opposed to Starfleet.

Yes, that is what I meant by saying that labs do lots of things that SFB doesn't have in the game.  But the CA has 8 labs so they can do more (more in depth actually) then a ship with only 2 to 4 labs can.

In most of what I have seen is, the CA can find a planet and say, hey it can probably support life (class M planet).  But it takes the GSC to find the resource level the planet could supply and see if it would be worth colonizing.

Also, probe drones don't give more information, just lets you take a look from farther away.  But tell me what average Klingon would take a few probe drones over a combat drones.

[Nemesis]

I was under the impression that the GSA was geared towards locating resources, while the CA was meant for general scientific exploration.  Also, civilian science vessels that the Enterprise encountered were chartered by private entities as opposed to Starfleet.

R2.16 Galactic Survey Cruiser:  The Galactic Survey Cruiser is intended for long range research and reconnaissance missions into uncharted space.  Note the larger number of lab and shuttle boxes and the addition of cargo spaces.

Also, probe drones don't give more information, just lets you take a look from farther away.  But tell me what average Klingon would take a few probe drones over a combat drones.

FD 6.31 Scientific:  The probe drone is considered to be a lab box for purposes of gathering information points only.

Ever play the monster scenario in SFB where you have to gather the information to determine how to destroy it?  My friends and I did, the Fed thought I couldn't succeed and was shocked when I took less damage than his F-CA did (unlike him no internals).  He had to close in to get the data, I just needed to take time.

A Klingon will take probe drones for the tactical advantage he can get.  Is there another ship hiding behind the planet?  What systems does that unknown ship have and how many.  Nice to know before they get to attack you. 

Variant drones can be quite useful in SFB and they can hand you the game when used properly. You can even put probe drones on ballistic courses (not counting for purposes of drone control) if you know for sure where it has to go.

The GSC can get sensor readings from places too dangerous for a ship to go.

A probe drone can go to at least some of those places and get the same information.  Alternately a barrage of probe drones supplementing the ships on board labs can allow it to gather information more rapidly to allow it to leave the dangerous zone more quickly.

[marstone]

I will agree on the varient drones can shift a battle.  I would love to see more added to SFC but I haven't thought of a good way to switch between drones without adding alot of complexity in controlling the drones. 

[marstone]

oh and yes, if going into a monster mission, I would always carry some probe drones. (if I had racks)  As you stated, just launch, and roll your die.

[Nemesis]

Way back in the dark mists of time a friend and I were challenged to a SFB battle (rules set by our opponents).  The battle never occurred because my ally and I became too confident of success after planning our side and the opposition lost confidence and refused to do the battle.

We had numerous things planned one was telling the Kzin to leave the building until called (the Fed would be informed the Kzin was in stasis).  (Note: the Fed would have been captured during the time the Kzin was in stasis).  When the Kzin came out of stasis our plan included having him facing large numbers of drones coming in with a demand for surrender.  The drones were going to be 1/2 space dogfight drones (useless against a ship) on ballistic courses backed up by controlled type IVs (for after his defenses were shot) with the Romulan controlling some of them to boost my control rating.

Custom drones really do have their uses.