Topic: Semi-SFB Strategy Game? (Now looking for Programmers)  (Read 18838 times)

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Offline marstone

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2009, 01:07:59 pm »
okay, yeah, I remember seeing that mentioned back abit ago.
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Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2009, 01:15:21 pm »
Yeah,

this is my first forray into Python, so I'm rather excited :-)

edit

well - I just read the first 6 chapters and I can already tell that this project is going to be waaayyyy complex. To be honest I don't even know where to start. I know what I would expect of the game, of course, but I have no idea how to start making it happen.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 02:04:27 pm by Furyofaseraph »
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Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2009, 02:24:19 pm »
There is a game already on sale that has 90% of what is described.... it is called Space Empire V and has aspects of SFB, F&E, Homeworld, etc.

The SFB aspect is that one gains starship hull technology and fills them with boxes representing weapons, cargo, fighters, APR, etc. just like designing an SSD for SFB.

The actual battles are reminesent of Homeworld, so i 3D and so realistically graphic.

One's goal is to explore the galaxy, discover new worlds, found colonies to exploit them for revenue points, construct shipyards, starbases, etc.

And then there is the AI races also have the same goals and they have different characters of going about it.

One can name your race and AI races whatever you like, the same goes for your ship design classes that you come up with.

The economy aspect is very close to F&E, and if one ends up dragged into a protracted war with another race, "War Build" designs are a good BPV solution.

As for BPV, one's colonies earn your race a revenue points income, which has maintainance cost of the fleets, repair costs, colony maintainance and with what is left over.... you can build starships of your own design.

Designing starships is rather like an interactive SSD exercise.

As with SFB, there is ages of technology and for a costly investment, one can pay scientists to research more powerful weapons, hull construction, shields, power units, fighters, etc.

Some of the weapons are pretty good, such as the Manson Cannon and the Wave Motion Gun.

The Usual Lasers, Phasers, Disrupters, Photons, Drones, Plasmas, and about a couple of dozen other weapons of serious nastiness to play with.

Yep, Space Empire V has it all.

My tactic is to design and build a large number of small frigate hulled unarmed fast exploration ships, send out small colony ship to grab any lucrative planets and resources, and sned a slower, larger colony ship to seriously populate later.

My war tactic is to build large infiltration squadrons of frigates, with the single biggest gun I can fit in the hull and power, mix them in with other conventionally armed frigates and rampage through the enemy's territory causing as much devestaion to their economy as I can.

Of course, if playing as Humans, just infiltrating a few Corporate Bankers and Loan Assessors, and this will see the enemy's economy in meltdown.

There is also the same kitbashing and modelling aspects as with SFC, Armada and BC. There are already Star Trek patches, with all the races and ships from SFB, the TV show, B5, BSG, etc.

 
The Klingons have many ways to fry a cat. I prefer to use an L7 Fast Battlecruiser!!

Offline Dizzy

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2009, 03:31:18 pm »
Space Empires V is a broken ass piece of garbage that has so many bugs you cant even shake a stick in space. Maybe if malfador releases another patch and fixes the numerous game breaking bugs that have been glaringly passed over, it'd be worthy of someone's time, but as is it's garbage. Plenty of potential, but totally broken. Games like 1.6 years out of the starting gate as well... wonder if it will ever be fixed. Sins of a solar empire, tho, is bad ass.

What I really want is an F&E game that allows you to run amok on the map with your ship and your buddies conducting X3 type missions in a D2 tactical engine format that wont adjust map ownership unless PvP is played using actual OoB ships that have been built and properly manuevered strategically into battle areas which are resolved via PvP fights which then adjust a map ownership, etc.

I could lose myself with that sorta setup.

Offline marstone

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2009, 04:05:40 pm »
Yeah,

this is my first forray into Python, so I'm rather excited :-)

edit

well - I just read the first 6 chapters and I can already tell that this project is going to be waaayyyy complex. To be honest I don't even know where to start. I know what I would expect of the game, of course, but I have no idea how to start making it happen.

First step, get a notebook/spiralbound/1 each  Then start writing what you want in the game.

Then break it down by the physical and logical parts.  Physical is the ships and actions that can be done to them.  Logic will be your scripts to make the physical happen.

take it in small bites.  Work on physical while learning Python.  So learn how to load and display the ships.  Build UI's (doesn't matter if the UI's you are building are the ones you want to use or not, you are learning first).  Then maybe add alittle logic to control the movement of the ships.

expand slowly as you learn.  Think in terms of the buttons and such for the logic sections (fire, arm, target, damage)  You will be writiing well over 10000 lines of code for the basic logic so get used to the stuff.

I don't know Python, it is similar to C but doesn't have hard variables.  Nice and can be nasty.

YOu want to bounce ideas, I'd be willing have them bounced off me.  I mostly know the whole SFB ruleset (doomsday edition) what I don't remember I have the books.  And the F&E ruleset also.
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Offline marstone

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2009, 04:08:03 pm »
Space Empires V is a broken ass piece of garbage that has so many bugs you cant even shake a stick in space. Maybe if malfador releases another patch and fixes the numerous game breaking bugs that have been glaringly passed over, it'd be worthy of someone's time, but as is it's garbage. Plenty of potential, but totally broken. Games like 1.6 years out of the starting gate as well... wonder if it will ever be fixed. Sins of a solar empire, tho, is bad ass.

What I really want is an F&E game that allows you to run amok on the map with your ship and your buddies conducting X3 type missions in a D2 tactical engine format that wont adjust map ownership unless PvP is played using actual OoB ships that have been built and properly manuevered strategically into battle areas which are resolved via PvP fights which then adjust a map ownership, etc.

I could lose myself with that sorta setup.

what be a X3 missions?  I could like that kind of a server also.  if you don't have the PvP battle you can conduct raids into enemy space and disrupt supply and econ, but can't flip a hex.
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Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2009, 04:11:49 pm »
Yeah,

this is my first forray into Python, so I'm rather excited :-)

edit

well - I just read the first 6 chapters and I can already tell that this project is going to be waaayyyy complex. To be honest I don't even know where to start. I know what I would expect of the game, of course, but I have no idea how to start making it happen.

First step, get a notebook/spiralbound/1 each  Then start writing what you want in the game.

Then break it down by the physical and logical parts.  Physical is the ships and actions that can be done to them.  Logic will be your scripts to make the physical happen.

take it in small bites.  Work on physical while learning Python.  So learn how to load and display the ships.  Build UI's (doesn't matter if the UI's you are building are the ones you want to use or not, you are learning first).  Then maybe add alittle logic to control the movement of the ships.

expand slowly as you learn.  Think in terms of the buttons and such for the logic sections (fire, arm, target, damage)  You will be writiing well over 10000 lines of code for the basic logic so get used to the stuff.

I don't know Python, it is similar to C but doesn't have hard variables.  Nice and can be nasty.

YOu want to bounce ideas, I'd be willing have them bounced off me.  I mostly know the whole SFB ruleset (doomsday edition) what I don't remember I have the books.  And the F&E ruleset also.

I've got a composition book or four to use for it :-). Work on foundations of the engine before the mechancis of the engine, got it. The only programming experience I've had is with MaxScript - but I think I have a firm grasp on events and variables - the UI is going to drive me up a wall, this much I am aware ;-). Drawing, redrawing...oofah. At least its going to be turn-based :-).

As far as SFB, I know that its going to be my touchstone along side Civilization 4, but I'm going to try to not be bound down to either one. :-)
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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2009, 11:49:44 pm »
Hey guys, just a quick question. How long does one scenario last in SFC, as a rough number?

Having a bit of a brainstorming session, tell me what you guys thing.

There are basically two routes I'm thinking here, both require a persistent hosting server. I will call these methods type I and type II. In both cases the player (you) represent the leader of a race or faction: Federation, Klingon, LDR, what have you. Bear in mind, right now I'm only thinking about the Strategic map.

Type I) Totally turn-based. A player can send commands to vessels/fleets at any time, whether it is there turn or not, as well as design their vessels, and pick what scientific achievement they are going to research. What's important is when there turn comes around that's when they are resolved. It's almost like you can set up a queue at any time, but then the queue is only resolved when its your turn.

Type II) A Time/turn-based. Much like the dynaverse (as I am familiar with it, at least). A set period of time dictates a turn (the setting for it would be customizable within the server). For example, lets say a turn is equal to 24 hours. You can perform actions at any time, but the queue is resolved at the end of that 24 hour period.

Which would you rather get behind?

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2009, 10:52:49 am »
More late night brainstorming:

Tactical combat. Obviously at some point our warships are going to have to wage war, and rightfully so. The xenophobic tholians have a right to defend there territory, and the klingons need to expand to survive. There are basically 4 ways to go with it, I feel.

1) 2D and realtime. Basically like playing SFC now, only on a larger scale (more ships, sometimes)

2) 2D and turn-based. Think like masters of Orion's combat system

3) 3D and realtime. I think this is my favorite idea. I know it deviates from SFB rules, but oh well. Essentially, it would feel like Homeworld.

4) Pure number calculations, like Civilization. (I think its boring that way, but it would be handy in certain situations. For example: if both players agree, the combat could be resolved like this.)

there ought to be an AI override on this, as well, methinks. If a turn is 48-hours, and a battle is to occur in that turn, you either have to fight your opponent, or you can have the AI engine handle the detailed battle.

In the cases of realtime, there should be flexibility in how you control your vessels - sort of like an AI autonomy setting (though, it'd be more complex than just a slider). Essentially you can select a craft, give it waypoints to follow (and even set the orientation of the vessel; maybe you want it to roll on its side to expose its dorsal shield; but thats in the 3D case) or tell it to attack a target, or harass a target, or even assault a target (use only phasers, stay at a maximum distance but still open fire, or attack with everything you've got, respectively).

Furthermore, you can set attitudes of any vessel you select under your command. The attitude would impact how the AI behaves, as well as energy priorities. Values could range from Aggressive (power to weapons) to Defensive (power to shields) to Evasive (power to engines), and so on. There could even be degrees of those attitudes: very aggressive (divert a whole bunch of power to weapons) or just aggressive (divert some power to weapons).

On top of that you should also have the ability to have any ship under your command perform specific commands, ie: launch a scatterpack, or fire a probe, or put this specific drone in your ammo rack and fire it when I say so, or grab a target ship in a strength:5 tractor beam, etc, etc.

I'm trying to plan for some pretty intense flexibility, here, allowing you to either sit back and watch a battle (but why would you want to) only give overall commands, or get into the heap and micromanage your ships, but only to the degree you want to.



On the strategic side.
I'm thinking a detailed economic system with trade (which is affected by relations between two members, ie: if they have a trade treaty, or are just on good terms).

A diplomatic system, which would only really be handy for treaties between live players, or affecting how the different AI players think of you.

I would LOVE to see things like morale for each unit/planet. If morale gets too bad you have uprisings which affect how effective the unit is. If it gets to a certain point, the unit becomes basically unusable. If it gets really bad there is a chance that the unit will either defect to an opposing player, or declare independence/go rouge. If the unrest is locallized but severe, there is a chance that the computer will spawn a new AI player for a new affiliation, or allow a new player to come on to control it, maybe. maybe like the LDR or Maquis.

In addition to diplomacy, there is espionage: steal research from a player, or find out whats going on behind his lines, etc. Careful, there is always a chance that you'll get caught - which could severely damage any relations you might have.

Characters should play a part as well. Characters are "recruited" or "trained" at certain facilities (Starfleet Academy). They have certain skill sets, and if they are assigned to a unit, they improve the effectiveness of that unit (or even a fleet, if they have achieved the rank of admiral). Characters can also be autonomous, and perform espionage or diplomatic missions. Hell, a character can even be assigned to a research facility, decreasing the time/cost of a certain research item (imagine scotty heading the development of a new warp drive system).

I'm not sure about the details of the economic model quite yet. I don't know much about real-life economics, so any model I come up with would likely be inaccurate. I know that there should be a few different resources: Metal, Credits, Luxuries, Research, Intelligence, and Food.
Metal and credits allow construction. Credits are also the medium for trade - buy X metal for Y credits, then sell Z research for W credits. Research items cost research points. Luxuries serve to "buy" morale - if a system is unhappy, ship a bunch of luxuries over there and watch your morale climb. Intelligence is the resource you pay when going under an espionage mission. Stealing a piece of research from someone is going to cost you in Intelligence. Food serves as an upkeep - the more planets you have, the more food you're going to need to supply them.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 11:10:56 am by Furyofaseraph »
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Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2009, 12:47:23 pm »
Ok scince this is going to be PVP I like the time limit turns as this helps to insure that people wanting to play will devote the time they need. I also like 3D. Space is vast and any good space game not just Sar Trek should reflect that with all the benefits and problems that intails. Now somthing to consisder is pacing of tactical battle. The faster the game plays and by virture the more exciting it is the harder it will be to micro manage individual ship function. This is some thing the I think needs to be decided very early on. If the player does not have time to do these things espiecally on a fleet scale then the ship's captain and crew (AI) must do them. The more they have to do the more complex the coding required to get an AI that will satisfy the players in its competence. On the revers side if everything is micro managed and fleet size is small like in SFB then the game will have a slower pace and may prove too teadious for alot of people. Pacing is a simple thing with large and far reaching effects on the whole game system and the amount of work too be done in some areas. In my experiance AI coding is one of the hardest thing about making a PC game and the first place where game companies screw up most of the time.

Offline marstone

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2009, 07:02:36 pm »
Ok scince this is going to be PVP I like the time limit turns as this helps to insure that people wanting to play will devote the time they need. I also like 3D. Space is vast and any good space game not just Sar Trek should reflect that with all the benefits and problems that intails. Now somthing to consisder is pacing of tactical battle. The faster the game plays and by virture the more exciting it is the harder it will be to micro manage individual ship function. This is some thing the I think needs to be decided very early on. If the player does not have time to do these things espiecally on a fleet scale then the ship's captain and crew (AI) must do them. The more they have to do the more complex the coding required to get an AI that will satisfy the players in its competence. On the revers side if everything is micro managed and fleet size is small like in SFB then the game will have a slower pace and may prove too teadious for alot of people. Pacing is a simple thing with large and far reaching effects on the whole game system and the amount of work too be done in some areas. In my experiance AI coding is one of the hardest thing about making a PC game and the first place where game companies screw up most of the time.

AI is very important but since this is going to be done with a scripting lanuage and not hardcoded in, it can evolve as development goes on.  So I would let AI take a backseat until the game and interface looks good. 

The proposal looks good so far, but remember to start at the bottom and work up in the design so you don't get lost.  You can add alot of the details scripting as time goes on.
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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2009, 07:11:54 pm »
Space Empires V is a broken ass piece of garbage that has so many bugs you cant even shake a stick in space. Maybe if malfador releases another patch and fixes the numerous game breaking bugs that have been glaringly passed over, it'd be worthy of someone's time, but as is it's garbage. Plenty of potential, but totally broken. Games like 1.6 years out of the starting gate as well... wonder if it will ever be fixed.

I got the game around its release, and while I didn't have the kind of problems you described(actually ran fairly well on my machine) I went back to Space Empires IV after about a month or two. I hope it does get fixed though, because you're right, there's a lot of potential there.
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2009, 11:10:49 pm »
Space Empires V is a broken ass piece of garbage that has so many bugs you cant even shake a stick in space. Maybe if malfador releases another patch and fixes the numerous game breaking bugs that have been glaringly passed over, it'd be worthy of someone's time, but as is it's garbage. Plenty of potential, but totally broken. Games like 1.6 years out of the starting gate as well... wonder if it will ever be fixed.

I got the game around its release, and while I didn't have the kind of problems you described(actually ran fairly well on my machine) I went back to Space Empires IV after about a month or two. I hope it does get fixed though, because you're right, there's a lot of potential there.

sipossed to be a patch real soon... Hopefully it fixes the broken diplomacy and game breakers... I'd be all in between sins and SEV if that thing gets patched.

Offline Starfox1701

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2009, 01:58:00 pm »
Ok scince this is going to be PVP I like the time limit turns as this helps to insure that people wanting to play will devote the time they need. I also like 3D. Space is vast and any good space game not just Sar Trek should reflect that with all the benefits and problems that intails. Now somthing to consisder is pacing of tactical battle. The faster the game plays and by virture the more exciting it is the harder it will be to micro manage individual ship function. This is some thing the I think needs to be decided very early on. If the player does not have time to do these things espiecally on a fleet scale then the ship's captain and crew (AI) must do them. The more they have to do the more complex the coding required to get an AI that will satisfy the players in its competence. On the revers side if everything is micro managed and fleet size is small like in SFB then the game will have a slower pace and may prove too teadious for alot of people. Pacing is a simple thing with large and far reaching effects on the whole game system and the amount of work too be done in some areas. In my experiance AI coding is one of the hardest thing about making a PC game and the first place where game companies screw up most of the time.

AI is very important but since this is going to be done with a scripting lanuage and not hardcoded in, it can evolve as development goes on.  So I would let AI take a backseat until the game and interface looks good. 

The proposal looks good so far, but remember to start at the bottom and work up in the design so you don't get lost.  You can add alot of the details scripting as time goes on.

I'm not an expert but if you cna do that with the AI that would be somthing that really give this kind of game longevity because as PCs upgrade to do more you could upgrade AI to make it better too.

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2009, 02:32:51 pm »
Space Empires V is a broken ass piece of garbage that has so many bugs you cant even shake a stick in space. Maybe if malfador releases another patch and fixes the numerous game breaking bugs that have been glaringly passed over, it'd be worthy of someone's time, but as is it's garbage. Plenty of potential, but totally broken. Games like 1.6 years out of the starting gate as well... wonder if it will ever be fixed. Sins of a solar empire, tho, is bad ass.

What I really want is an F&E game that allows you to run amok on the map with your ship and your buddies conducting X3 type missions in a D2 tactical engine format that wont adjust map ownership unless PvP is played using actual OoB ships that have been built and properly manuevered strategically into battle areas which are resolved via PvP fights which then adjust a map ownership, etc.

I could lose myself with that sorta setup.
I would love a game like that, myself. I saw Sins of a Solar Empire for $15.00 at Target. Might see if that single copy is still there when I go out later. Thanks for the tip!
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Offline Tulwar

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2009, 10:55:18 pm »
A warning about Sins of a Solar Empire:  You have to have 128 Mbytes of video memory.  I made the mistake of picking it up, but the menus won't appear on my laptop.  Ooops!
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Offline Calexandre

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2009, 10:00:23 pm »
I don't think any game could possibly recreate the complexity of SFB/C. SE V was to me, a flop because all the AI did was spam fighters and poorly designed frigates at you.

I did give a point in favour of Nexus: The Jupiter Incident as a 3D tactical game with simulation elements but it was too fast paced and basic (read: way too easy to master) to be an actual tactical exercise. All you needed to do was stock up on 2 weapon types and hit the right buttons.

Offline Panzergranate

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2009, 01:29:08 pm »
Well Space Empire 2 was a simple but addictive shareware game written in VB300 aimed at those that liked empire building coupled with exploration.

The AI in SE 5 does need a smarter AI, but then again, so do a majority of games out there.

I've played around with AI for years now, mainly for robotics, etc. and always worked on the proemise that we all learn from making and analysing mistakes, preferably those of others, in my case.

I've written quite a few self learning AI programmes for robots over the years.

There is one AI game, namely "Supreme Commander", which tries a strategy out, if it seems to be payijng off, keeps going. If it doesn't seem to be working, aborts the attack and tries something else.

The AI keeps players on their toes.

The game music is also brilliant.

Hopefully SE 6 will be an improvement on the AI.

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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2009, 04:38:38 pm »
I am still plugging away at learning python - however, someone has suggested to me that I make a Civilization 4 mod based off of Federation & Empire.... it has merit, methinks.
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Re: Semi-SFB Strategy Game?
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2009, 10:58:52 pm »
On second thought - I grabbed a demo of Space Empires V - looks very promising...

Still deciding what I want to do >.<
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