Topic: Updated (probably final) with information about .modfile/model size limit.

[marstone]

The X file might be their for the dynamic LOD since there's no difference in the .MOD file itself?

I am assuming the X file is used for compatibility.  Using the DirectX would make the code easier in some respects, also use the newer Vidio cards without having to recode.

[Kevlar]

well who knows? I was going to say that the  .x file is connected with the introduction of the dynamic lod system. Strongly doubt they would have gone to the trouble of changing how the models were loaded into the game just to add glows , but marstone has a point also, since it does increase compatibility.

 And maybe even performance also, since the x-file is always considerably smaller than the mod file. for example the mod file of the model i'm working has about 2384 kb, the corresponding x-file only has 726, almost 3.3 times smaller. in this age where everyone has 1 gb ram or more, a couple of kb's sound irrelevant, but it does add up when rendering several objects in the screen and  this games were made in a time where people had..... maybe 256 mb ram?...think sfc3 min reqs were 128 mb ram.
 
One added (happy) side feature of the dx/.x file implementation is that sfc3 "reads" a lot of texture/image formats, including dds (one thing most people have not took advantage of, it can actually reduce the file size of textures by half, and, while i'm not that wise about it, a co worker tells me it increases overall performance and should make gameplay smoother )

[Kevlar]

ok i made some progress. the limit appears to be artificially hardcapped. it is bellow 22 k polys actually, like in the region of 2187x polys or 2,57 megabites size. i am in  doubt if the limit  is poly related or just an ARTIFICIAL harcap limit on the mod file size- sounds stupid but i just deleted the hardpoints and materials of a mod, without changing the geometry, and bingo, it loaded it .

another concuring factor is that the direct x mesh loader will simply check for "something"- might be the mod file size or the number of polys and then decide if it will create the x.file "image" or not. If it doesn't find or like whatever it looks forward to, it will simply  abort, displaying the unable to create x-mesh message without actually trying to create.

[Kevlar]

one more small step ... apparently i was wrong. it appears to be a poly limit, and that limit is, until proven otherwise, in the vicinity of 21814 polys.

If the model has between 21815 and  around 21850, the x loader will still try to read it, but will normally stop responding . I write normally since in 20 attempts, one time, at 21823 it actually worked, but for some reason was specific for one particular mod file.  19 out of 20 times  it will not display any error, just enters a state of guru meditation ( little bit of commodore amiga/workbench vocabulary revival). 

Once the poly number goes bellow 21815 , there is almost 100% chances the mod file will be converted to x-mesh. Luckly one of the models i have been working caps at 21810 so for a bit, i have some momentary relief.

In the end tho, I got some satisfation in pushing the "game" to it's limit, and probably having the most geometrical complex model ever to be deployed in sfc3.

Would like to end  with a escatological insight.
 Despite whatever problems sfc3 had and has (some of them psycological tbh, some people are so attached to the SFB ruleset that dismissed the game for not being sfb canonic, but that is another discussion), can't avoid feeling that the game engine was/is particularly robust considering the time it was created.

Most models that come with sfc3 had around 1000 polys, with a few exceptions going to 1500 or so. Most ambitious fan/community models made with game play (and multi player aspect) in mind  rarelly exceeded 7000 polys at that time (and those 7000 leviathans were exceptions , norm was around 5000) , even today, considering what was been released from the ST:excalibur project, most models that they use sit around 10-11 k polys. and, yet, this *little* game shipped with the ability to support single models up 3 times more complex than anything being made for games at the time.

Whatever ramblings I have made about the x-file and it's limit, need to be contextualized with the above written. almost 22000 poly margin to model was HUGE . it still is. ANd i don't know why , but have the gut feeling that this 21.81k poly limit is more a hardcaped limitation of the direct x loader than of the game engine itself.

regards,

Kevlar

[marstone]

Got to say, thanks for the Guru Med ref.  Had an Amiga (A1000, A500, A2000HD). 

Finding the limits of the game is good, even tho I do not like SFC3 personally (yes one of those SFB people) but I don't say the game is a POS.  Just not one I like.  That said, I hope we can get both OP and SFC3 into the next gen in the near future.

[Kevlar]

I have .mods with poly counts of over 22k In my SFC3 install, SFC3 can also use most image formats. PNG's and TGA's if set up right can be used for creation of transparencies without having to flip faces. JPGs for very low file space, and so forth.

can you re-check the size of any those models, or point me out to one of them. NOt a question of not trusting you, but  I can't really get anything inside with + 21815. and I really needed those ~200 more polys. ...I am doing something wrong ... hmm do you know how the models were transformed in mod form? maybe the importer I am using bugs out ,, or something....

[Kevlar]

They are scene models (a single .mod file that uses multiplue models) i.e a planet with atmosphere, moon, starbase, 2 drydocks and a ship. The one that I did was made in Gmax. Its about 22108+ The .mod file itself is only 2.56MB

They aren't released yet as the are planned for my Omega Mod.

hmm k that (might) explain a bit. Probably 21815 is the limit for a single object . your multiple models in the mod file are probably treated in a different way by the "x.loader".  or something. 
thank you.

[marstone]

They are scene models (a single .mod file that uses multiplue models) i.e a planet with atmosphere, moon, starbase, 2 drydocks and a ship. The one that I did was made in Gmax. Its about 22108+ The .mod file itself is only 2.56MB

They aren't released yet as the are planned for my Omega Mod.

hmm k that (might) explain a bit. Probably 21815 is the limit for a single object . your multiple models in the mod file are probably treated in a different way by the "x.loader".  or something. 
thank you.

I was wondering if someone was to make a high poly scene instead of a single object if it would be loaded.  (make the ship in parts).  Anyone try this?

[Kevlar]

They are scene models (a single .mod file that uses multiplue models) i.e a planet with atmosphere, moon, starbase, 2 drydocks and a ship. The one that I did was made in Gmax. Its about 22108+ The .mod file itself is only 2.56MB

They aren't released yet as the are planned for my Omega Mod.

hmm k that (might) explain a bit. Probably 21815 is the limit for a single object . your multiple models in the mod file are probably treated in a different way by the "x.loader".  or something. 
thank you.

I was wondering if someone was to make a high poly scene instead of a single object if it would be loaded.  (make the ship in parts).  Anyone try this?

was thinking the same. when i get one i'll try.

[Kevlar]

I was wondering if someone was to make a high poly scene instead of a single object if it would be loaded.  (make the ship in parts).  Anyone try this?
[/quote]

it goes over the limit. I am not entirely sure of the how's (didn't had much time to expirement) but it is possible to go above 22k polygons that way. Aparently 21815 is the limit for a single seamless object. iI'll experiment further this weekend

[Kevlar]

this is what i found after some trials- this is just very early empirical knowledge, subject to revision

mod files with "sectioned" objects (divided in parts) can go above 22k polygons.

the ~21815 poly limit is for seamless objects only. when 1 object is divided in parts, the "x mesh maker" (in lack of a better name), treats each object  like a different x-mesh.

There is sitll a maximum amount of polys that can be associated with a mod file but right now can't pinpoint it, since trying this stuff out can be very stressing, in many situations sfc3 will crash and take your system with him, forcing a reboot.

it is possible to section a model in 2 (or more parts), make it go above 22k polys  and have it displayed in game, tho visual results may not be the best, if the object is divided in more than 3 parts.


this is purely speculative, but I suspect there is a legacy aspect from SFC1/2/OP. where there were 3 "seamless" objects per mod file (the different levels of detail). When using a "mod file with 3 lods", SFC3 apparently displays all of them at the same time, giving preference (I suspect) to the more complex model, that, in theory comes on top of all others.  (this might open the possibility of makiing each object complement each other, but probably requires a lot of work/effort)
 
mod files with the _brk termination (aka break models) are treated in a different way- tho exactly how much different, I still can't precise.

that's about it