Topic: Updated (probably final) with information about .modfile/model size limit.

[Kevlar]

Don't know why had this urge to play SFC again some weeks ago. Had not done that in some years but kickly caught up the pace on playing and, days after, on model tweaking/editing.

Even while non playing, every time I, somehow, found a decent looking 3d model, ended up saving on disk (habit that got me since sfc1). Some of them are from other games, some made by... skilled chaps like you guys . The ones from other games I ported to sfc for my own use (normally even mailed the authors  since well it takes 20 secs and I find it also a way to say "you made a great work" and tbh none ever replayed "don't")

 there is one  model tho, from BC,  that has been breaking my head. Author said sure, and I made the normal operations, have the mesh on a mod file format, taldren's model viewer displays it but both the SFC model tools and SFC3 itself don't really work with it, prompting me the message "couldn't create X mesh"

now...my question to the experts: is there a limit on the polys that sfc3/sfc3 models tools can "render" ? - this is a high count poly and maybe the taldren model viewer differs on that aspect (this is what is breaking my head, how can the model viewer display it and the game engine/sfc3 models tools can't)

anyone can give me some lights on this X mesh subject? Is there a work around?- tried researching myself but hadn't found any clue.
Should I fire, actually install, SFC2 (or SFC1) and try there?

best regards,

me:)

[Rod ONeal]

FWIU the X mesh limit is in the 13K poly range. Beyond that SFC3 can't generate the X mesh.

[Kevlar]

thank you. does previous versions of sfc suffer from that limitation?

[GotAFarmYet?]

SFC 1 and 2 yes and no...
Basically depends somewhat on the system and allot to do with texture sizing and number of mapped ones you used, and number of ships you are loading. If the model viewer can load it usually the game will too, it just might take a week or so.

[Kevlar]

again thanks.
Don't think it will take a week . my system is pretty robust from cpu to ram and even a 1gb video card and the same model works in bridge commander . a pity on sfc3 tho, this is by far the best looking vor'cha mesh i saw.

Guess it is time to dig out SFC: OP from the treasure chest...

One more time, thank you and rod for the answers.

[marstone]

my thoughts on the x-mesh, since no one has seemed to answer what that is.

Looks like SFC pulls the information needed from the mod format (hardpoints, ect) and then converts the image to .x format (I would think that is the x-mesh).  The format you have 3d images in so direct x can display it.

My thoughts from what I have learned so far.  Haven't looked to see if .x has a limit on polies that SFC can't get around or if it is just a SFC thing.

[Kevlar]

my thoughts on the x-mesh, since no one has seemed to answer what that is.

Looks like SFC pulls the information needed from the mod format (hardpoints, ect) and then converts the image to .x format (I would think that is the x-mesh).  The format you have 3d images in so direct x can display it.

My thoughts from what I have learned so far.  Haven't looked to see if .x has a limit on polies that SFC can't get around or if it is just a SFC thing.

Not going to disagree with the battousai 
At least sfc3.  I did some tests, including using the mod file of the model I wanted to port with an x file from the default vor'cha to see what would happen... sfc engine displayed the old mesh even when the default mod file was no in the models directory.
This x.mesh/.x file just killed my port to sfc3


Think previous sfc versions did not use a *.x file. At least hope so or else was searching for the OP cd's (and now installing) for nothing.

[marstone]

my thoughts on the x-mesh, since no one has seemed to answer what that is.

Looks like SFC pulls the information needed from the mod format (hardpoints, ect) and then converts the image to .x format (I would think that is the x-mesh).  The format you have 3d images in so direct x can display it.

My thoughts from what I have learned so far.  Haven't looked to see if .x has a limit on polies that SFC can't get around or if it is just a SFC thing.

Not going to disagree with the battousai 
At least sfc3.  I did some tests, including using the mod file of the model I wanted to port with an x file from the default vor'cha to see what would happen... sfc engine displayed the old mesh even when the default mod file was no in the models directory.
This x.mesh/.x file just killed my port to sfc3


Think previous sfc versions did not use a *.x file. At least hope so or else was searching for the OP cd's (and now installing) for nothing.

Well, will say this, you got me to wonder now.  So, add another side project to me.  Ripping apart the MOD format to see how it ticks, and how to make a reder program for it (for learning of course).

[Kevlar]

SFC3 can create an xmesh on models upto 22k.... I've done it many times

What I was trying to port is above that -in fact I would dare say it is in the league of high detail  models used for CG artwork . Still good to know that SFC3 can go up to 22k .. I might give myself the trouble to gut the model of some of it's lower hull section (we never see that on sfc anyway) and try to reduce the poly count a bit...

[marstone]

wonder if the 22000 poly is hardcoded as a limit or after that point it errors.  If hardcoded, possible an edit could raise it in the game.

[Adonis]

What is the model in question anyway?

[Kevlar]

What is the model in question anyway?

http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/dock/4566-Vor-Cha-Attack-Cruiser-details.html#4566

edited: was able to port it to orion pirates. still need to scale it and do some other things I don't really remember- haven't touched in SCF<3 in years, but at least it shows in game, getting some results was what a stubborn codfish head guy like me needed (yes, i'm objective driven. )

[atheorhaven]

Suggestion:

Try the SFC 3 Model tools.. the Recacher should be able to generate .X's for you.  If in doubt, delete the current .X's from the directory, create a blank file (you can open a new file in Notepad and save it as modelname.x without any data in it) in the same directory.  Then run Recacher, and it should work.. usually. 

[Kevlar]

Suggestion:

Try the SFC 3 Model tools.. the Recacher should be able to generate .X's for you.  If in doubt, delete the current .X's from the directory, create a blank file (you can open a new file in Notepad and save it as modelname.x without any data in it) in the same directory.  Then run Recacher, and it should work.. usually. 

Had tried that. neither the rechacher or the model attribute editor can display the mesh, both end up giving a " can't generate x-mesh" message.
think that either there is a limit on polys that an x file/mesh can have or/and the sfc3 engine/model tools have a hard cap on polys and this model bypasses it for much.

In sfc 2/Orion Pirates, after scalling the mesh in gmax (default mesh was bigger than the SFC skirmish map ) it is working. Not perfectly yet but i'll get there eventually and for the time being it is enough for me. Just hate to get beated by this stuff without having anything to show for the time lost- at least porting to SFC:OP feels like a bronze medal...

Can't do a thing about sfc3 tho.

[Kevlar]

So, after checking several things , finally found exactly why I couldn't port a BC ship to sfc(3).....

little info about mod file....this is valid for sfc3 only:

While taldren's mod format is  robust and capable to sustain models with +200 000 polys (just converted something with 220k polys and can use it in OP),  the .x file system/loader used by sfc3 is not, and stops converting any mod file with more  than 2.55 megabytes (around ~25  k polys)**  to .x mesh and so, objects are not loaded in the game, making a error/crash.
 

since sfc1*/sfc2/OP doesn't use a x-mesh system, they can, in theory, load any 3d model in mod format independent of the size or detail of it.


*expeculative, since have not tested with sfc1.

**ps: limit is 2.59 mb, (more like 2.5899) and it is independent of poly numbers.

[marstone]

So, after checking several things , finally found exactly why I couldn't port a BC ship to sfc(3).....

little info about mod file....this is valid for sfc3 only:

While taldren's mod format is  robust and capable to sustain models with +200 000 polys (just converted something with 220k polys and can use it in OP),  the .x file system/loader used by sfc3 is not, and stops converting any mod file with more  than 2.55 megabytes (around ~25  k polys)  to .x mesh and so, objects are not loaded in the game, making a error/crash.
 

since sfc1*/sfc2/OP doesn't use a x-mesh system, they can, in theory, load any 3d model in mod format independent of the size or detail of it.


*expeculative, since have not tested with sfc1.

Makes since, from what I was looking at in the game and in the MOD files themselves, it didn't look like it used DirectX to display it out.  But couldn't look deep anough to be sure.  Another reason why SFC:OP might be glitchy on Vista.

[Kevlar]

wonder if the 22000 poly is hardcoded as a limit or after that point it errors.  If hardcoded, possible an edit could raise it in the game.

Been thinking about that a lot.  I am curious  and since i'm rebuilding a model with high detail elements, i'm often borderline to the limit . strangely enough , the .x file image created by sfc3 can't be read by .... well anything except sfc3 and the sfc3 model tools.

 Sadly I don't have the knowledge  to go sniffing the sfc modelling tools files MeshLoaderR.dll and ModelRendererR.dll to find out.

[marstone]

wonder if the 22000 poly is hardcoded as a limit or after that point it errors.  If hardcoded, possible an edit could raise it in the game.

Been thinking about that a lot.  I am curious  and since i'm rebuilding a model with high detail elements, i'm often borderline to the limit . strangely enough , the .x file image created by sfc3 can't be read by .... well anything except sfc3 and the sfc3 model tools.

 Sadly I don't have the knowledge  to go sniffing the sfc modelling tools files MeshLoaderR.dll and ModelRendererR.dll to find out.

Looked into the MOD format (hex editor of a file or three), nothing in there that seems to limit anything.  I need to learn alittle bit more of 3D modeling and how the skins are put on (the MOD file has a ton of floats in it so was hard to read).  The limit has to be the .x convertion in SFC3.  I've done some searching around and don't see a listed limit on the .x format so it is probably something in the game.

[Kevlar]

I suspect it is some sort of artificial hardcap. Might be wrong ofc.  I lack the computer knowledge  to go beyond a  hex sniff try on the .x file myself.

At first sight there isn't a reason limiting the .x file size to 22k pols. But whatever reads the mod file and creates the "x-image" stops doing it at around ~22k pols or 2.58 mgb mod file size (and crashes) . without the x image, the model is not loaded iin game. why? no idea.


Might even be a case of taldren deciding that 22k pols per model  is more than enough or else people will convert anything to mod file and start whinning because of performance drops- Not saying that's the reason but might be.

[Rod ONeal]

The X file might be their for the dynamic LOD since there's no difference in the .MOD file itself?