Topic: The Forge - Flat Out

[Dizzy]

Thanks, Bonk. So your work is demanding and you just got over the Flu. Hope your bosses let you slide and stay home and rest. Sucks balls being sick and having to work. Sucks having to work at all sometimes, hehe. Thanks for changing the trade in. I know you wouldnt have done it had it been your 'vision' not to. But as casual a player as I am, I just couldnt afford to keep swapping from ship to ship to meet the current AI/PvP needs and felt stuck and needed to speak out against my fellow starship naysayers who disagree with me. Can't please em all, right?

Bottom line here is this illustrates a major problem with the way ships are purchased... pp is like money and there's no accounting for hording it and ammassing a really large amount of it while other players are really stung by it due to either their chocies for high replenishable spacedock resupply ship types that keep their pp bank low or their casual flying style that keeps their missions at a lower rate than nutter players. Inflation nor any other control I can think of can level the buying field... How can pp be controlled, be fair and work well in a dyna setting? I always thought the whole concept of it was garbage.

[KBF-Crim]

Thanks, Bonk. So your work is demanding and you just got over the Flu. Hope your bosses let you slide and stay home and rest. Sucks balls being sick and having to work. Sucks having to work at all sometimes, hehe. Thanks for changing the trade in. I know you wouldnt have done it had it been your 'vision' not to. But as casual a player as I am, I just couldnt afford to keep swapping from ship to ship to meet the current AI/PvP needs and felt stuck and needed to speak out against my fellow starship naysayers who disagree with me. Can't please em all, right?

Bottom line here is this illustrates a major problem with the way ships are purchased... pp is like money and there's no accounting for hording it and ammassing a really large amount of it while other players are really stung by it due to either their chocies for high replenishable spacedock resupply ship types that keep their pp bank low or their casual flying style that keeps their missions at a lower rate than nutter players. Inflation nor any other control I can think of can level the buying field... How can pp be controlled, be fair and work well in a dyna setting? I always thought the whole concept of it was garbage.

No socialism on the dynaverse!

[Dizzy]

Thanks, Bonk. So your work is demanding and you just got over the Flu. Hope your bosses let you slide and stay home and rest. Sucks balls being sick and having to work. Sucks having to work at all sometimes, hehe. Thanks for changing the trade in. I know you wouldnt have done it had it been your 'vision' not to. But as casual a player as I am, I just couldnt afford to keep swapping from ship to ship to meet the current AI/PvP needs and felt stuck and needed to speak out against my fellow starship naysayers who disagree with me. Can't please em all, right?

Bottom line here is this illustrates a major problem with the way ships are purchased... pp is like money and there's no accounting for hording it and ammassing a really large amount of it while other players are really stung by it due to either their chocies for high replenishable spacedock resupply ship types that keep their pp bank low or their casual flying style that keeps their missions at a lower rate than nutter players. Inflation nor any other control I can think of can level the buying field... How can pp be controlled, be fair and work well in a dyna setting? I always thought the whole concept of it was garbage.

No socialism on the dynaverse!

Actually the more I think about it the better it sounds... Having a 'pool' of pp where everyone from that race or side gets to use it as they need it sounds perfect. Then periodically ship prices can be 'jacked up' to ccount for inflation and this wilkl not impact casual flyers because they draw from the 'pool' account.

[marstone]

Thanks, Bonk. So your work is demanding and you just got over the Flu. Hope your bosses let you slide and stay home and rest. Sucks balls being sick and having to work. Sucks having to work at all sometimes, hehe. Thanks for changing the trade in. I know you wouldnt have done it had it been your 'vision' not to. But as casual a player as I am, I just couldnt afford to keep swapping from ship to ship to meet the current AI/PvP needs and felt stuck and needed to speak out against my fellow starship naysayers who disagree with me. Can't please em all, right?

Bottom line here is this illustrates a major problem with the way ships are purchased... pp is like money and there's no accounting for hording it and ammassing a really large amount of it while other players are really stung by it due to either their chocies for high replenishable spacedock resupply ship types that keep their pp bank low or their casual flying style that keeps their missions at a lower rate than nutter players. Inflation nor any other control I can think of can level the buying field... How can pp be controlled, be fair and work well in a dyna setting? I always thought the whole concept of it was garbage.

No socialism on the dynaverse!

Actually the more I think about it the better it sounds... Having a 'pool' of pp where everyone from that race or side gets to use it as they need it sounds perfect. Then periodically ship prices can be 'jacked up' to ccount for inflation and this wilkl not impact casual flyers because they draw from the 'pool' account.

having a pool and the Race Moderator being able to assign it to players would be alright.  That way someone can't just fire up the game and take a huge chunk of PP to by a DVL as his first ship. 

Maybe link the pool of PP to the races econ so it grows depending on the race not the players.

[Dizzy]

I was thinking more along the lines of an OCI interface where pp is awarded into a 'pool' where approved captains can get whatever ship they want. Then we could jack ship prices way up for the in game shipyyards where buying ships there with your individualaccount would be prohibitive... This would force players to buy ships from the OCI interface and pooling money would benifit everyone.

I can see where a player pissing away a BB would be a bad thing, but the admin could setup the pool to where if you wanted to buy a restricted pooled ship class, the admin has to approve it for that player. So in essence, you could go from a pooled pp account to an OoB setup quite easily and all the same. Socialism never sounded so good. 

[marstone]

I was thinking more along the lines of an OCI interface where pp is awarded into a 'pool' where approved captains can get whatever ship they want. Then we could jack ship prices way up for the in game shipyyards where buying ships there with your individualaccount would be prohibitive... This would force players to buy ships from the OCI interface and pooling money would benifit everyone.

I can see where a player pissing away a BB would be a bad thing, but the admin could setup the pool to where if you wanted to buy a restricted pooled ship class, the admin has to approve it for that player. So in essence, you could go from a pooled pp account to an OoB setup quite easily and all the same. Socialism never sounded so good. 

Yep, yep, could get behind that.  The OCI does give lots of options if you want to work on it.

[Dizzy]

Ya, I mean, there's lotsa ways to do it... U could have only the big ships, say DN and up using the pooled pp... and they'd be expensive... and we could adjust those costs for inflation. The shipyards would be unaffected save for the prohibitive prices of DN's so individual accounts wouldnt be able to get them.

Edit: I mean here's another way to think about it. A nutter seldom gets to use all his money. They busy flying frigs and CL's flipping hexes amassing wads of pp. What if there was a 'Bank' they could deposit their money into? Then, anyone from their side could use that money benifitting casual players so they can afford ships their limited playing time seldom allowed them to purchase. In addition they dont need to sweat it so much losing in PvP and may give it a go if they knew it wouldnt kill their bank account. I like it.

Edit 2: In fact, I think Bonk already worked it up to where players could donate some of theoir money to a specific player. WOuldnt take too much I dont think to add the 'Bank' and allow players to borrow from it for purchasing a ship. Instead of taking out cash from the bank once players deposit their money, instead, the pp is deducted from the bank whenever a player from that side buys a ship.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Ya, I mean, there's lotsa ways to do it... U could have only the big ships, say DN and up using the pooled pp... and they'd be expensive... and we could adjust those costs for inflation. The shipyards would be unaffected save for the prohibitive prices of DN's so individual accounts wouldnt be able to get them.

Edit: I mean here's another way to think about it. A nutter seldom gets to use all his money. They busy flying frigs and CL's flipping hexes amassing wads of pp. What if there was a 'Bank' they could deposit their money into? Then, anyone from their side could use that money benifitting casual players so they can afford ships their limited playing time seldom allowed them to purchase. In addition they dont need to sweat it so much losing in PvP and may give it a go if they knew it wouldnt kill their bank account. I like it.

Edit 2: In fact, I think Bonk already worked it up to where players could donate some of theoir money to a specific player. WOuldnt take too much I dont think to add the 'Bank' and allow players to borrow from it for purchasing a ship. Instead of taking out cash from the bank once players deposit their money, instead, the pp is deducted from the bank whenever a player from that side buys a ship.

I hope if you implement this idea on one of your servers you're the RM who has to keep track of it and deal with players request....
Way too complicated for the average player, and complicated enough even Vet players won't be thrilled.
Having assigned ships has proved in the past to be a royal PITA and I hope the heck we don't go back to that.
Using the OCI on past runs of the Forge, you can transfer PP to another player, but, there was a cost. I forget now how much it was.

[marstone]

Ya, I mean, there's lotsa ways to do it... U could have only the big ships, say DN and up using the pooled pp... and they'd be expensive... and we could adjust those costs for inflation. The shipyards would be unaffected save for the prohibitive prices of DN's so individual accounts wouldnt be able to get them.

Edit: I mean here's another way to think about it. A nutter seldom gets to use all his money. They busy flying frigs and CL's flipping hexes amassing wads of pp. What if there was a 'Bank' they could deposit their money into? Then, anyone from their side could use that money benifitting casual players so they can afford ships their limited playing time seldom allowed them to purchase. In addition they dont need to sweat it so much losing in PvP and may give it a go if they knew it wouldnt kill their bank account. I like it.

Edit 2: In fact, I think Bonk already worked it up to where players could donate some of theoir money to a specific player. WOuldnt take too much I dont think to add the 'Bank' and allow players to borrow from it for purchasing a ship. Instead of taking out cash from the bank once players deposit their money, instead, the pp is deducted from the bank whenever a player from that side buys a ship.

Maybe in the OCI a spot could also be added so you can "bank" a ship or two.  That way you can put aside a ship that doesn't come up often in the shipyard so you don't have to loose it if you change to a specialty ship to do a mission.

[KBF-Crim]

With the OCI...you can buy any ship in production...you dont have to wait for the yards

[marstone]

With the OCI...you can buy any ship in production...you dont have to wait for the yards

true, true.  But you could also limit ships so they are not in production and not in the OCI directly to do OOB.  Have a RM add only so many of the limited ships to the OCI.  That way you can lower the worry about fleeting rules as the really limited ships would really be limited. 

[Dizzy]

I hope if you implement this idea on one of your servers you're the RM who has to keep track of it and deal with players request....
Way too complicated for the average player, and complicated enough even Vet players won't be thrilled.
Having assigned ships has proved in the past to be a royal PITA and I hope the heck we don't go back to that.
Using the OCI on past runs of the Forge, you can transfer PP to another player, but, there was a cost. I forget now how much it was.

I argee.. Assigning ships is a pita and we wont ever use that again save for mb a BB or something that doesnt take time. Also, complication isnt what Im after. If the Bank method Im referring to doesnt simplify things and make them better then we wont use it. The OCI pp transfer penalty can be changed.

Here's the idea in a more fleshed out form... Have an OCI Prestige Bank for the Coalition and another for the Alliance where players can put their money into they dont need. Then along comes a new player halfway thru the server and doesnt have any pp. When his individual account cannot afford him the ship he wants, he draws from the 'Bank' and gets his ship. The only thing players need to do is make a deposit to make it all work. This will cut down on having to donate to so many players over and over thus streamlining the feature, making it faster and easier and more fun.

[marstone]

The ship docking was part of a larger modification to the OCI I was looking at.

It looks like it would be possible to have the shipyard set to build no ships, and have the OCI modify the database to add in new builds (keep basic hulls in stock and only add so many speciallty ships per year based on a build schedule).   Not sure how the server would like that part being modified tho (not an SQL guys so haven't tried it out yet).

[Dizzy]

With the OCI...you can buy any ship in production...you dont have to wait for the yards

true, true.  But you could also limit ships so they are not in production and not in the OCI directly to do OOB.  Have a RM add only so many of the limited ships to the OCI.  That way you can lower the worry about fleeting rules as the really limited ships would really be limited.

Or expensive! Say that we want BB's to cost 200k. Well, in short order you'd be able to pool enough pp from everyone to buy it, but that's gonna put a dent in the bank for other ships and bases. So I'd say this idea has merit.

Edit: Only thing I'd want done is a Bank Ledger showing everyone that's deposited and withdrawn from the bank and in what amounts. In fact, withdrawing money is bad idea, instead, ship purchases will deduct from the bank so that no one can take the money out of the bank once its deposited.

[marstone]

With the OCI...you can buy any ship in production...you dont have to wait for the yards

true, true.  But you could also limit ships so they are not in production and not in the OCI directly to do OOB.  Have a RM add only so many of the limited ships to the OCI.  That way you can lower the worry about fleeting rules as the really limited ships would really be limited.

Or expensive! Say that we want BB's to cost 200k. Well, in short order you'd be able to pool enough pp from everyone to buy it, but that's gonna put a dent in the bank for other ships and bases. So I'd say this idea has merit.

expensive can work, but a true nutter with a bank behind them could probably pull it off in not that long a time.  So you might still end up with more BB's in the game then you really want out there.  But it is a easy solution that would help keep heavy metal down to a reasonable level.

[Dizzy]

expensive can work, but a true nutter with a bank behind them could probably pull it off in not that long a time.  So you might still end up with more BB's in the game then you really want out there.  But it is a easy solution that would help keep heavy metal down to a reasonable level.

Having a lot of BB's isnt the issue. Its the issue that a lot of nutters have WAY too much cash and casual or new players have too little. Using a 'Bank' is a way to enable players who have lotsa cash allow others to use it if they need to. Fleeting rules keep BB's from running amok. Currently the donation OCI scheme is cumbersome. I'd like to see the Bank idea solve that and make the game better for everyone.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

I guess I'm a selfish capitalist afterall. Give the RMs a pool at the start of the server to dole out when they feel it's needed. I'll work for my ship regardless of how much or little time I have to fly, just keep the trade in value reasonable or i'll be opening multiple accounts.

[Dizzy]

I guess I'm a selfish capitalist afterall. Give the RMs a pool at the start of the server to dole out when they feel it's needed. I'll work for my ship regardless of how much or little time I have to fly, just keep the trade in value reasonable or i'll be opening multiple accounts.

And that's fine, Tobin... The 'Bank' would work for those that want it. No one is forcing you to deposit your money. So you keep your pp in all your individual accounts. But here's the kicker. Let's say a few players have deposited money they arnt planning on using and in one of your other accounts, you are a little short on cash for that ship or base you need. So you login to the OCI, get the ship you want using some 'Bank' money and you're set. Nice to have it in a pinch and you didnt have to ask anyone.

It's simple and easy to use. I envision a few details like this: Using the OCI Bank would deduct money for the purchase of your ship out of your account 1st, and leave you with no less than 1k pp left to outfit it. Any remainder comes straight out of the bank. You would be required to be of a certain rank to use the Bank to buy certain ships... like if you need money to buy a BB, you'd need to be a certain rank to do so... This prevents bank fraud, hehe.

[KBFLordKrueg]

I guess I'm a selfish capitalist afterall. Give the RMs a pool at the start of the server to dole out when they feel it's needed. I'll work for my ship regardless of how much or little time I have to fly, just keep the trade in value reasonable or i'll be opening multiple accounts.

And that's fine, Tobin... The 'Bank' would work for those that want it. No one is forcing you to deposit your money. So you keep your pp in all your individual accounts. But here's the kicker. Let's say a few players have deposited money they arnt planning on using and in one of your other accounts, you are a little short on cash for that ship or base you need. So you login to the OCI, get the ship you want using some 'Bank' money and you're set. Nice to have it in a pinch and you didnt have to ask anyone.

It's simple and easy to use. I envision a few details like this: Using the OCI Bank would deduct money for the purchase of your ship out of your account 1st, and leave you with no less than 1k pp left to outfit it. Any remainder comes straight out of the bank. You would be required to be of a certain rank to use the Bank to buy certain ships... like if you need money to buy a BB, you'd need to be a certain rank to do so... This prevents bank fraud, hehe.

Perhaps we should continue this discussion in another thread, rather than hijacking this one...

[Dizzy]

Perhaps we should continue this discussion in another thread, rather than hijacking this one...

Then start a thread and quit yer bitchin!