Topic: Trek 11 Enterprise

[TheStressPuppy]

Atolm has a point.

He is right MUCH more about Galactica was changed than just the ship. The same is going to be true with this "new" Trek. It is an" Everything" change not just the looks. Like a total conversion mod of the Trek universe. Like it or not it is going to happen. If the writing, acting, and storytelling is good like in Galactica then we may have a winner. If not then i dont know, but i will wait and see the movie before i make any decision. My life doesnt revolve around trek, and if the movie turns out to suck then we always have DVD.

I personally dont agree with this new design, but that is just my opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less. I never said it was a "bad" design. There are things i dont agree with about it is all. Like the nacelles. The "Devolved" TMP look i can see, and that would be a logical step in building a "modern" TOS ship. There are curves in places where IMO they shouldnt be (behind the bussards). The "bling" lighting. which "should" be on the inboard sides on the nacelles. Many of the ships issues IMO have to do with the nacelles. They look good however are overkill if they were trying to avoid the "cigar" style. They didnt have to overdo all of these curves. Like i said before i need to see this ship from other angles before i can truly judge it.

It is a culture shock is what it is. Those who grew up used to seeing the old ship when they saw this new ship was almost like a slap in the face. Again i am NOT saying this is a bad design. It is very Different, and that is the main issue is it not? The old school trekkies dont want change. They want their 1960's style glowwy button old cardboard walled bridge. They want the Jefferies design intact, and untouched. With klingons without ridges. Time to move on and accept the inevitable people. I have.

[Atolm-Rising]

SP, you are probably 100% correct on your assesment of this being a "culture shock"-type of thing.
And you are 100% right on needing more before a definative "Here's The NEW Enterprise". 
I'm so willing to wait and see.

[Rod ONeal]

Thanks, Alec, for pointing that out. Actually, after looking at it more, I'm now of the opinion that,

A; If it is something Gabe designed, as you say someone with no clue (not your exact words) had final say and screwed it around.

B; Someone else, who might be the clueless one, designed it and either that person or, the above mentioned clueless person, took many design cues from Gabe's work.

In the same way they upgraded all of the individual elements for the TOS design to make the TMP ship, they should have prefitted the TOS design. It looks more like a TMP prefit instead, that precludes the TOS Enterprise.

[marstone]

Well, my two cents.

For the ships exterior.  I don't like it, but then I have always liked the simple TOS/SFB look of ships.  But I can live with it, it will look wrong just like BSG looked wrong (but it looked alot closer then this).  The bridge could be toned down alittle, but it is better to have something that looks like a starships computer equipment instead of the toggle switches, konbs, and such that TOS had (but they were based on modern 1960-70 computers) and switches were what people expected from comtrols (not always computer stuff). 

Next will have to see if they have the rapid fire phasers and multi-photons that the movies ships had over TOS weapons.

I will see it, not sure if in the theatre or at home rental.  And who knows, if it is half good, maybe a TV series will follow it (then if you watch anough you will start to like it, just like BSG).

[TheHalfMonte]

There can be a lot of good from this endeavor, but we'll never know if we don't see it for ourselves.  That's what I am talking about.
Take the time, have the patience, don't take someone elses word (mine most of all...lol), wait and see for yourself.
BSG, Bond, I mean cripes, is it really that important, as to just hate something, be cause of how it looks?

That's the pill I hope more people plop. Because while we're obvious fascinated by the vehicles of sci-fi, just as many, if not more are in it for the story. Hell, isn't the lack of a compelling story our greatest grievance against Berman-era Trek?

[Adonis]

The main reason for the comments were simple:
The lack of respect towards the work involved in designing the ship.  Now I didn't say love anything...I said that things should be tollerated as for what they are.
And using a bridge pic, or a ship pic to discredit a whole film project is silly.  That has been the trend as of late.  Regardless if this is infact a reboot or not, it IS STAR TREK.  nothing you or I or anyone can say will change that.  Oh sure, as I have said many times before, people make trek to what THEY WANT IT TO BE, not what it is.  There is nothing wrong with that.  But I am ashamed at the venomous statements that have been made involving not just this film, but the franchise as a whole.  I really hated voyager, But it still is STAR TREK.  And I respect the time and effort that it took to do what they did.  I Strongly dislike the Sovie, but I'll never say it "sucks" and be serious about it.  That's what I am talking about.   
If you don't like the ship, fine, that's your perogative, but the lack off respect ("Bastard-prise" comes readily to mind).  I mean for Pete's sake, Trek fans fight over BS like it was a religion trying to discredit another one.
It's easy to say, "screw it, its going to suck", without even giving it a chance. 
There can be a lot of good from this endeavor, but we'll never know if we don't see it for ourselves.  That's what I am talking about.
Take the time, have the patience, don't take someone elses word (mine most of all...lol), wait and see for yourself.
BSG, Bond, I mean cripes, is it really that important, as to just hate something, be cause of how it looks?
BSG change stuff way more than the original, but it still is a great show.  To me it will not be the original, but that was never the point of it.  Capt_Pestalence_XC  posted a comparason shot of the TOS Galactica and the New one, and that only prooves to support how different, yet superficially similar they actually are.  The New Enterprise draws an even closer comparason to the TOS one than the two Gals of BSG, how funny is that.
With this new Trek movie, it is supposed to be a fresh new take on an old Ideal.  It is bound to piss all of us off to some degree or another, but you know what, I'll wait to be pissed off, when the flic comes out.
You will always have TOS, its not going anywhere...  But make room for the new TOS-Era Flic, that is based on technology, and style that is very much today, the 21st Century.

I personally love the ship design (mainly-as I joked with WZ about- because it doesn't look like it ripped-off any of my design details...  ), There are some rough pointsa to the design, in my oppinion, due to my specific tastes in aestics, but other than that she's a connie... Just not your daddy's Connie.  The fusion of a retro-esque styling with how we would go about designing ta future ship, lends itself well as a sleek, very clean and smooth shape, with just enouth details in the areas, that would(and I agree with the designer's choices here) need them, with out over doing it.

I for one never said that the movie will suck, I'm open to that, I just don't like the ship because it's aesthetically unbalanced. But I do reserve my final judgment when I see the thing onscreen in motion. On the other hand, there's this small idiotic historic issue tho. It was kept with BSG (you can see the new one kept true to the proportions and balance of the original). I don't see it with this. That's my main issue with it.

[stoneyface]

wow i think i am going to save this picture of the "new" "reboot" enterprise, just in case i need to induce vomiting at some point...

[Centurus]

wow i think i am going to save this picture of the "new" "reboot" enterprise, just in case i need to induce vomiting at some point...

You know something?  You've probably just come up with the best use for this "starship" than anyone else has.

[Fedman NCC-3758]

Well, here's a captured still from Stony's thread.

[JohanobesusII]

The main reason for the comments were simple:
The lack of respect towards the work involved in designing the ship.  Now I didn't say love anything...I said that things should be tollerated as for what they are.
And using a bridge pic, or a ship pic to discredit a whole film project is silly.  That has been the trend as of late.  Regardless if this is infact a reboot or not, it IS STAR TREK.  nothing you or I or anyone can say will change that.  Oh sure, as I have said many times before, people make trek to what THEY WANT IT TO BE, not what it is.  There is nothing wrong with that.  But I am ashamed at the venomous statements that have been made involving not just this film, but the franchise as a whole.  I really hated voyager, But it still is STAR TREK.  And I respect the time and effort that it took to do what they did.  I Strongly dislike the Sovie, but I'll never say it "sucks" and be serious about it.  That's what I am talking about.   
If you don't like the ship, fine, that's your perogative, but the lack off respect ("Bastard-prise" comes readily to mind).  I mean for Pete's sake, Trek fans fight over BS like it was a religion trying to discredit another one.
It's easy to say, "screw it, its going to suck", without even giving it a chance. 
There can be a lot of good from this endeavor, but we'll never know if we don't see it for ourselves.  That's what I am talking about.
Take the time, have the patience, don't take someone elses word (mine most of all...lol), wait and see for yourself.
BSG, Bond, I mean cripes, is it really that important, as to just hate something, be cause of how it looks?
BSG change stuff way more than the original, but it still is a great show.  To me it will not be the original, but that was never the point of it.  Capt_Pestalence_XC  posted a comparason shot of the TOS Galactica and the New one, and that only prooves to support how different, yet superficially similar they actually are.  The New Enterprise draws an even closer comparason to the TOS one than the two Gals of BSG, how funny is that.
With this new Trek movie, it is supposed to be a fresh new take on an old Ideal.  It is bound to piss all of us off to some degree or another, but you know what, I'll wait to be pissed off, when the flic comes out.
You will always have TOS, its not going anywhere...  But make room for the new TOS-Era Flic, that is based on technology, and style that is very much today, the 21st Century.

I personally love the ship design (mainly-as I joked with WZ about- because it doesn't look like it ripped-off any of my design details...  ), There are some rough pointsa to the design, in my oppinion, due to my specific tastes in aestics, but other than that she's a connie... Just not your daddy's Connie.  The fusion of a retro-esque styling with how we would go about designing ta future ship, lends itself well as a sleek, very clean and smooth shape, with just enouth details in the areas, that would(and I agree with the designer's choices here) need them, with out over doing it.

The problem is that this isn't just another ship of the week, or even a "recurring guest" like the Excelsior or Miranda.  This is supposed to be the Enterprise.  Not an Enterprise, but Kirk's Enterprise.   As such it is absolutely appropriate to judge it not simply as a new ship but as a redesign of a particular ship.  It fails because it is taking a classic and beloved design and turning it into something unrecognizable with a very different aesthetic. 

Furthermore, while I understand as a designer of unconventional ships you might take a lot of undeserved heat just for being unconventional, but frankly I don't think I should respect something just because someone put a lot of work into it, regardless of the quality of the result.  If this were a fan design made by an amateur as a new ship I would probably say it was O.K. and move along.  But this was done by professionals, and it just doesn't match the quality of the previous incarnations.  Jeffries and Probert designed beautiful, elegant ships.  I didn't really like the Galaxy's aesthetic, but I am forced to admit that it had a certain grace and elegance, regardless of whether I personally liked the overall ship.  In other words, I respected it as a well designed piece of art even though it didn't suit my tastes.  This new ship, though, isn't graceful or elegant, at least not in the one angle we've seen.  The nacelles are clumsy and over engineered, and the engineering hull protrudes too far beyond the neck and is proportionally too small compared to the saucer.  It looks awkward in addition to being ugly.  It might look marginally better from different angles, but unless the angle shown is really, really bad, it just isn't well designed.  It's too bad if someone spent a lot of time designing it.  That person just did not do a good job.  I'm not going to "respect" it just because someone worked hard on it.  The fact that is a total redress of a beautiful, cherished, iconic design just makes it even worse.

[Brush Wolf]

Those nacelles look like they're off of a '57 Oldsmobile.

The first thing to pop into my mind when I looked at the nacelles was J57.

[Atolm-Rising]

JohanobesusII , your statement right there mate, is the reason for my post.

You don't have to like it, as I have said.  Hell, you don't have to like the Roman Collosseum either, but the amount of time and effort it took to do such an endeavor is respectible.  Its the exact same thing.  
Kirk, Spock, Phasers, Klingons, the Enterprise are all ficticious characters/technology/things based on a ficticious universe for a real world franchise.  Now, if that said franchise decides to do something totally hypocritical or just go back and change something, it is more than within it's right to do so.  If you created a universe, characters etc.  and you passed it on to others to take care of, do you think that it would be the same as when you originally concieved of it?  Or even better, if you created it, and years later you chose to go back to it and tweak things...  See what I'm getting at here.  I am a designer, and so are lots of other people here, and I am sure that they(including me) have gone back later and rethought, and ultimately re-executed an idea.  What emerges from such endeavors is natural, its call change.  Change is an enevitablility of life.  So deal with it.  But how you deal with it, is the point I am trying to make.  The bitching, that is the point that I am making.  All Trek fans seem to do at this point is just that, BITCH.  When TNG came out, they bitched, when TNG had the ep Relics made, they bitched.  When DS9 came out, they bitched, then they did Trials and Tribble-ations, they bitched.  When VOY came out, and later did Flashback, They bitched.  When Enterprise came out man did we bitch, and when Mani Coto came in to help and did In A Mirror Darkly, they bitched and continued till the show ended,  Trek REMASTERED, they Bitched(I am exluding far more numerous bitching that occured throughout each series for the sake of me just typing bitch, bitch, bitch, etc.).  NOTHING WILL BRING BACK TOS.  NOTHING WILL REPLACE IT EITHER.  So in reality, who cares, if they do a new take on trek?  You'll always have the old ones.
So, at what point do we as fans stop BITCHING?  All of us, including myself has done it.  But if the points are valid then sure, we can have a discussion, but lately, it has not been.  Its been let's bitch for the sake of bitching.  This is not about making you guys like a design or not( for some reason, some of you seem to feel that this is the case, its not.), its about saying, okay this is the "new" Enterprise, don't like it/I like it/dunno about it yet...but I'll wait and see, or at least give a real critic of the ship (some of you have, but others, just replied like an infant).  All of us would agree that there is a lot of work in doing something like this.  Think about it from that perpective.  Put yourself into that situation.  Put all that Bitching energy into one big core, and freaking do something great.  Because at this point you'll never be satisfied with anything, and if that is going to be the case, then why even bother?  Because you care?  If you did, then you'd understand just wtf I have and many others, even more qualified than me have been saying for years...not just here and now.  
Bill Shatner said it best, "Get A Life!" .

[GotAFarmYet?]

MadKoiFish over at SciFi Meshes made a beautiful version that coulds have easily been used, and I know of at least 4 other version that also could have worked as a bridge for the ships. The plain truth is they went with none of them and I think they came up with a bad design. The seconadary hull looks bad the Deflector worse, and the engines look to thick for the rest of the ship. The Saucer looks more TMP than TOS. All that asside and the perspective of the pic that doesn't help the ship did not meet that awe
factor the other ships Star Trek Produced did.

The First ship in TOS was ground breaking you saw it and wondered about it, and it became the reference for all future ships, concepts and ideas. It was orginal, simple in details and made you think about the scale of it and about the future.

The TMP one had the awe about it, it was one of the most beautiful Scifi ships to ever hit the screen.

The TNG one had Families in it and the windows all made sense for that reason. While not ugly it took some time to get use to but it had all the basics and porportions we were use to.

DS9 had the little war ship that changed sizes with the episodes, something the orginal never did and was thought only the timelords could do. Other than the fact that its size changed quite abit it was still a good looking ship.

Voyger kind of followed what they were doing with the Sov. but not quite as good looking. It to had size issues as it could hold more shuttles than a starbase and also used TL tech, but went wrong with landing on planets. It shows just how bad the series writters had gotten. I still say Voyger was Phallic shaped, which seemed to make sense with a woman captaining it. Still was one of my least favorite ships until I saw this one.

SOVEREIGN class was once again a beautiful design and fit with the more war era that the TNG universe had gotten to.

Enterprise the seris ship was a good looking ship and seemed to fit the setting they had it in.

This is MadKoiFishs' version and it is where I think they should have headed wit hte New TOS design:

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I have never seen a picture quite so beautiful as that last one.

[Centurus]

It warms my heart to see that picture. 

[Norsehound]

I have to wonder what the designers of this Enterprise are feeling now that the design was leaked, and raging fanboys are crapping on their work. True, you can't please everyone, but is it fair to say that almost nobody likes the new ship?

It isn't the prettiest design, but it could be worse- they could have updated the NX-01 as the "New Enterprise" and given that to us instead. As hesitant as I am with this new design, I think I would have been a lot angrier if we were given a revamped Akiraprise as the 'new face of Trek'.

Let's see her in action before getting out the pitchforks and torches, mm? I wasn't onboard with the Sovergin in stills, but seeing her in the battle in FC changed my mind.

[FoaS_XC]

I agree completely with Azel and Norsehound. Let's keep an open mind and reserve judgements until we see her in flight.

[Norsehound]

If the writing, acting, and storytelling is good like in Galactica then we may have a winner.

I feel like I should point out that Moore's BSG offended more of the original fanbase than got any of them onboard.

Frankly I don't see it as a compliment when suggesting nBSG as evidence that a remake "would work". Thematically, the two battlestars are in completely opposite directions. The only thing shared between them, at this point, are names. The most important element, the tone, was tossed away in favor of one completely opposite in Moore's Remake (Optimism in the face of certain defeat for TOS, Extreme pessimism of everything in TNS). I'm not sure I'd like a Trek series that went completely opposite in theme to the original.

To say Trek 11 would be successful if it emulated BSG would mean we get worse than a crappy Starship Enterprise redesign. An an example, some of the TOS cast would have gender changes and there would be a love triangle between Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and say Scotty that sucked up most of the screen time with wooden acting. Aside from the dramatic eye-candy of space battles (with no Phasers, Photon Torpedoes, or Shields), there would also be a running conspiracy to see if Romulans do exist, since they may or may not have cloaking devices in their bodies. Oh, and McCoy is sleeping with their leader, since s/he is actually be a Borg clone sent to spy on the Alpha Quadrant.

My point is, saying "If Trek is like nBSG, then we'll be good" would do all of Trek a disservice by creating something so different from what made Trek good that we'd be wondering why it was called Trek. I feel ENT came close to this, which is why it only made 3 seasons (4 for the sake of being syndicated, and even then it was by different writers).

TOS had wit, good pacing, and never tried to deliberately loose the audience. The characters were likeable, not perfect, but at least you never hoped the bad guys zapped any of them. Best of all it was fun to watch, despite the cheap special effects and sets. So long as Trek 11 maintains the same balance the original TV series had in the 60s, perhaps we'll be fine... maybe even capturing the magic that made TOS so memorable for everyone.

[JohanobesusII]

JohanobesusII , your statement right there mate, is the reason for my post.

You don't have to like it, as I have said.  Hell, you don't have to like the Roman Collosseum either, but the amount of time and effort it took to do such an endeavor is respectible.  Its the exact same thing.    ...

Bill Shatner said it best, "Get A Life!" .

Yes, Paramount has the legal right to do whatever they want with the franchise.  If they want to do a new version with Kirk and Spock in a gay love affair, that would perfectly legal if not wise or respectful.  And I have the right to feel that they are making a huge mistake and doing it wrong.  I didn't expect them to use the original Enterprise.  I didn't expect it to look like it came fresh out of Desilu's studio in 1966.  I did hope that they would respect the franchise and history enough to make something that honored the original instead of pissing all over it.  It's funny that you talk about respect when they aren't showing any respect for Jefferies and everyone else that worked so hard to create a ship and sets that were both believable and aesthetically pleasing.  They aren't showing respect for the fans who have a strong emotional investment in TOS.  They aren't just private individuals holding onto personal property.  Star Trek is part of our culture.  Even non-fans know the names Kirk and Spock and recognize the Enterprise.  It seems to me that they have a moral responsibility to treat this franchise with respect, because in a way it belongs to all of us.  They can't please everyone all the time, but they can treat the established products with reverence and respect.  That's what they did with the TOSR.  I may not agree with every single choice they made, but they clearly approached the project with a great deal of respect for the original product.  The same just isn't true with this new movie.  It might be a great film, but visually it isn't a real prequel to TOS.  As someone on another board said, they ought to just own up to this being a reboot along the lines of NBSG and not make any pretense of this being the same universe as TOS.

I don't think that my posts are nothing but bitching.  But I'm not going to shed any tears over the poor professionals who worked so hard on an ill conceived and poorly executed model.  They are paid to do a job, and if they don't do it well, I have no qualms about saying so.  I don't believe in grading people purely on effort.  Quality and intent matter.  The intent was for this to be Kirk's Enterprise, and in that it has failed badly.  The quality doesn't look very good, at least from that angle.  Like I said, I am capable of respecting a piece of art that I don't like very much.  It is possible for something to be of high technical quality and still ugly (like the Galaxy).  This new ship just doesn't cut it.  The fact that somebody put a lot of effort into it doesn't matter.  By that logic, literature and art teachers should only grade students on how hard they worked on assignments, not whether the assignments are of decent quality.  I guess I should go back to my high school band director and fuss at him for not moving me up to first chair.  I sure put a lot of hours into practicing, so the fact that I couldn't quite reach the high notes shouldn't matter.


And please, this is an internet forum.  One of its raisons d'ętre is for people with too much time on their hands to bitch. 

[Atolm-Rising]

LOL... agian, thank you, for proving my point.
I'm done with this thread.  Let's see what FoaS has going on in the next one.