Topic: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

I would definitely try stock 2552 OP. Do you mean it was balanced from many SFC1/EAW/pre-patch OP games before Orion Pirates was patched? I don't know anything about the online history of OP past about a year ago.

It should be possible to get enough players to use the stock 2552 shiplist with just a little pregame planning.

Roy why aren't you guys flying Xp's Hardcore Shiplist?  It beats going back to 2552 and does address many of the problems here.  Plus it has sponsorship pof sorts here.

I'll give you a hint...Draco hates it. 

Anyway...


As I see it, many of the utility ships and ancilliary ships in SFB are were not designed to be integrated into a persistent universe.  A lot of them were built to fit into mods that had their own subset of rules. Plus the effect of certain weapons meant mostly for defensive uses worked well enough in a turn based ben and paper setting but produced unexpected results in a real time environment.  For example the mauler was a junk ship in SFB usually taken out right away but in real time play the mauler is the featured ship being escorted by ships of the line.

Well TUGS are ridiculous.  I mean the Mirak BT something or other can go toe to toe with a C7.  Easy.  Not to mention they have three variants of it and one with six dizzies that plays in Early.

I think Hardcore takes them out.

I'm not sure where the latest Hardcore shiplist is at.  I have no idea they are not posted for use here at the Dynaverse site but they are not.

[Bonk]

I'm not sure where the latest Hardcore shiplist is at.  I have no idea they are not posted for use here at the Dynaverse site but they are not.

It is here: ftp://www.dynaverse.net/sfc2_op/Mods/XC_MOD_PACKS/opplus_40_hc_setup.exe (Requires OP+ 4)

The announcement thread: Do you have what it takes to be HardCore?

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I would definitely try stock 2552 OP. Do you mean it was balanced from many SFC1/EAW/pre-patch OP games before Orion Pirates was patched? I don't know anything about the online history of OP past about a year ago.

It should be possible to get enough players to use the stock 2552 shiplist with just a little pregame planning.

Roy why aren't you guys flying Xp's Hardcore Shiplist?  It beats going back to 2552 and does address many of the problems here.  Plus it has sponsorship pof sorts here.

I'll give you a hint...Draco hates it. 

Anyway...


As I see it, many of the utility ships and ancilliary ships in SFB are were not designed to be integrated into a persistent universe.  A lot of them were built to fit into mods that had their own subset of rules. Plus the effect of certain weapons meant mostly for defensive uses worked well enough in a turn based ben and paper setting but produced unexpected results in a real time environment.  For example the mauler was a junk ship in SFB usually taken out right away but in real time play the mauler is the featured ship being escorted by ships of the line.

Well TUGS are ridiculous.  I mean the Mirak BT something or other can go toe to toe with a C7.  Easy.  Not to mention they have three variants of it and one with six dizzies that plays in Early.

I think Hardcore takes them out.

I'm not sure where the latest Hardcore shiplist is at.  I have no idea they are not posted for use here at the Dynaverse site but they are not.

Oh yes, I think Draco's favorite ship is that one Mirak tug!

I tried Hardcore out a little, and really like it. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether enough players would switch over to go along with it. It would be a great improvement to the current OP+ 4.0 which, like you said adds tons of SFB ships that were balanced in the SFB universe, but not in Lamespy play.

A positive of the HC installer is that it is so easy to switch from HC to 4.0 or back again. That should help its chances of being adopted, much easier than manually swapping the .txt files.

Rondo, do you remember the history of the mods for GSA? For example: people used 2552, then went to OP+ (where we are now). Was Hardcore ever extensively used on Gamespy?

[Bonk]

To balance OP+4 or SFB-OP for GSA or TCP/IP (or even Dynaverse) the solution is simple: Follow SFB CnC (Command and Control) rules. The problem is only 3 ships per player makes a dreadnought illegal under all conditions for two player games, however with six players on two teams (nine ships per side) then a dreadnought can be legally used (if I recall my SFB CnC properly) but not in a fleet of less than nine ships. 30+ years of playtesting speaks for the results. When using non-Taldren SFB style ships, then SFB CnC must be followed if you are to expect any semblance of balance.

Example: No leader versions outside a full squadron of three (frigates, light criuisers or new light cruisers). You want that D5L then you'll have to take two plain old D5s to go go with it. etc...

I long ago lost my SFB books, anyone care to outline the CnC rules in greater detail (accuracy)?

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

I would definitely try stock 2552 OP. Do you mean it was balanced from many SFC1/EAW/pre-patch OP games before Orion Pirates was patched? I don't know anything about the online history of OP past about a year ago.

It should be possible to get enough players to use the stock 2552 shiplist with just a little pregame planning.

Roy why aren't you guys flying Xp's Hardcore Shiplist?  It beats going back to 2552 and does address many of the problems here.  Plus it has sponsorship pof sorts here.

I'll give you a hint...Draco hates it. 

Anyway...


As I see it, many of the utility ships and ancilliary ships in SFB are were not designed to be integrated into a persistent universe.  A lot of them were built to fit into mods that had their own subset of rules. Plus the effect of certain weapons meant mostly for defensive uses worked well enough in a turn based ben and paper setting but produced unexpected results in a real time environment.  For example the mauler was a junk ship in SFB usually taken out right away but in real time play the mauler is the featured ship being escorted by ships of the line.

Well TUGS are ridiculous.  I mean the Mirak BT something or other can go toe to toe with a C7.  Easy.  Not to mention they have three variants of it and one with six dizzies that plays in Early.

I think Hardcore takes them out.

I'm not sure where the latest Hardcore shiplist is at.  I have no idea they are not posted for use here at the Dynaverse site but they are not.

Oh yes, I think Draco's favorite ship is that one Mirak tug!

I tried Hardcore out a little, and really like it. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether enough players would switch over to go along with it. It would be a great improvement to the current OP+ 4.0 which, like you said adds tons of SFB ships that were balanced in the SFB universe, but not in Lamespy play.

A positive of the HC installer is that it is so easy to switch from HC to 4.0 or back again. That should help its chances of being adopted, much easier than manually swapping the .txt files.

Rondo, do you remember the history of the mods for GSA? For example: people used 2552, then went to OP+ (where we are now). Was Hardcore ever extensively used on Gamespy?

No. I don't think it was.   While Frey and Stoney came on and hosted rooms it was used.  But its really a marketing job more than anything...Supply and Demand.

It will be a hard sell lets face it, there are more than a few pilots who like the idea of firing their G2's or a Mauler and not having to worry about SHIFT and all the other complexities of the game.  We are "post ladder" in SFC at this point...for in those days all that needed to happen was acceptance from the major Ladder Match Leagues like Starlance or GZ and no problem, the file was used.  So it would have to be done the hard way...Supply and Demand ...

Supply

1)  Make the mod easy to get and not stowed away in some thread somewhere  ...

Would the DYNA folks be willing to put the file in the Download section?  If not what about places like CUGS or making up your own website (I guess you would have to get XC's permission to feature the mod).  Also how does google work anyway? When I type "SFC HArdcore" I get nothing.  Any way to change that for free?


Demand (The critical part I guess)

2)  Target GSA "Hosts" and we'd have to sell them the concept.  People who can host are the powers on GSA.   When you come on make sure you always play a few games with Hardcore.   Another idea is hosting a tournament with Hardcore only.  Of course you have to have somethng to give away or at least a hosted site to post the results....(Why not here?).  I would simply start with hosting games and distributing Hardcore.

 
 

[Bonk]

1)  Make the mod easy to get and not stowed away in some thread somewhere  ...

Would the DYNA folks be willing to put the file in the Download section? 

Excellent suggestion Rondo, it is done. http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads.php?id=57&game=SFC2%20OP

Also how does google work anyway? When I type "SFC HArdcore" I get nothing.  Any way to change that for free?

Now that it is listed on our downloads page it should show on a google search for "XenoCorp HARDCORE" or "HARDCORE OP Plus" within a few days. (The next time they crawl that part of our site ... and it is all done for "free"!)

Googlebot activity in the last 90 days
Number of pages crawled per day
Maximum    40,162
Average    3,892
Minimum    3

e.g. like this currently appears as hit #1: http://www.google.com/search?q=Dynaverse.Net+Client+D2+Patch+Installer

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

No. I don't think it was.   While Frey and Stoney came on and hosted rooms it was used.  But its really a marketing job more than anything...Supply and Demand.

It will be a hard sell lets face it, there are more than a few pilots who like the idea of firing their G2's or a Mauler and not having to worry about SHIFT and all the other complexities of the game.  We are "post ladder" in SFC at this point...for in those days all that needed to happen was acceptance from the major Ladder Match Leagues like Starlance or GZ and no problem, the file was used.  So it would have to be done the hard way...Supply and Demand ...

Supply

1)  Make the mod easy to get and not stowed away in some thread somewhere  ...

Would the DYNA folks be willing to put the file in the Download section?  If not what about places like CUGS or making up your own website (I guess you would have to get XC's permission to feature the mod).  Also how does google work anyway? When I type "SFC HArdcore" I get nothing.  Any way to change that for free?


Demand (The critical part I guess)

2)  Target GSA "Hosts" and we'd have to sell them the concept.  People who can host are the powers on GSA.   When you come on make sure you always play a few games with Hardcore.   Another idea is hosting a tournament with Hardcore only.  Of course you have to have somethng to give away or at least a hosted site to post the results....(Why not here?).  I would simply start with hosting games and distributing Hardcore.

 
 

1. IIRC, I first saw the Hardcore mod download when looking at the CUGS site. Since then, they have changed their site and the download section is incomplete, but I don't see why they wouldn't put it up again when they do update the site. I'm not sure about getting Google to include a certain site.
 edit: Nice, thanks Bonk.

2. My hosting isn't the most reliable but I will start using HC, and there are a few other hosts I can think of that would probably give it a shot too. I mentioned before how the GSA crowd is divided, but those who wouldn't give Hardcore a chance don't really come to our rooms much anyways ("Ewww, 130 no X?!?!?").

[Age]

depends on what you are fighting.  If I'm going up against plasma, I find the extra speed of the war cruiser to be more useful . . .

Assuming D2 loadouts . . .

What does a CLC do when the Romulan Castles?  What is the possible outcome besides closing and dying?   the F-CLC is only competitive against Plasma buckets if the Romulan is an idiot and chases you relentlessly. The CB still has enough power to remove their front shields if they do a maniacal chase.  Most will then castle-up at that point and the CB is MORE than capable     

During General War 4, I killed 20+ Romulan Heavy cruisers (NHKs, KRCS, RHK, KWR, F-FHK, etc . . .) in 3 days without loosing once in an F-CB in 1v1 engagements (Warsears did nail me in a droner though, I got cocky . . .).  These were against veteran pilots, not newbs. 

Could i do this now?   hell no!     Too much time in a BB/DNH rots your brain.   

Fleet engagements is a different ballgame. This is where the War crusier speed pays off.

I remember that server very well and how you just discovoered the F-CB.I would do much of the same thing in CLC castle and shoot proxies.The Question is can you do the same thing in F-CC+ if not what good are they to fight Klinks instead of Roms.I see a lot of Races in the shiplist who have more power then an F-CC+ doesn't an L-CC have more power.

When it comes to preferences on heavies mine are Early F-CAR,F-CC Middle to Late F-CAI,F-CB,F-CVD,F-CAD+,F-NCA,F-NCC, and Advanced F-CX(Firesouls version 4x photon can have 12x phaser type 1s).

I thought Hardcore was just the same as OP+4.0 with all the Tugs removed?

[Bonk]

I thought Hardcore was just the same as OP+4.0 with all the Tugs removed?

What's different? All the tugs, scouts, and other ships that were included for the sake of completeness in the original OP Plus 4.0 are now removed. This is a lean, mean fighting machine shiplist based on what would have been available during the General War / Federation & Empire era's in SFB. No more relying on uber ships to win a match, now you've got to have the skilz to be HARDCORE.

[FPF-DieHard]

The Question is can you do the same thing in F-CC+ . . . .

The CC+ is okay against Roms until about 2270.   After that you are at a huge disadvantage.

[FPF-Paladin]

I thought Hardcore was just the same as OP+4.0 with all the Tugs removed?

What's different? All the tugs, scouts, and other ships that were included for the sake of completeness in the original OP Plus 4.0 are now removed. This is a lean, mean fighting machine shiplist based on what would have been available during the General War / Federation & Empire era's in SFB. No more relying on uber ships to win a match, now you've got to have the skilz to be HARDCORE.

Mmmm Hardcore.

When do you guys usually go on for these non-X matches?  I'd do Hardcore shiplist in a second.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

I'm in California.  Don't usually get on until 0800 PM PST.  But there are player on and off from 6 - 11 (pm) PST. 

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Yes, and also, most players seem there on Friday and Saturdays during those times.

[FPF-Paladin]

Rgr, I'll try to keep an eye out.

[Bonk]

Now that it is listed on our downloads page it should show on a google search for "XenoCorp HARDCORE" or "HARDCORE OP Plus" within a few days. (The next time they crawl that part of our site ... and it is all done for "free"!)

Googlebot activity in the last 90 days
Number of pages crawled per day
Maximum    40,162
Average    3,892
Minimum    3

e.g. like this currently appears as hit #1: http://www.google.com/search?q=Dynaverse.Net+Client+D2+Patch+Installer

It has been crawled (hit #1 in both cases):
http://www.google.com/search?q=Xenocorp+Hardcore
http://www.google.com/search?q=Hardcore+OP+Plus
 

[Age]

The Question is can you do the same thing in F-CC+ . . . .

The CC+ is okay against Roms until about 2270. After that you are at a huge disadvantage.

It is not that I think it is bad ship possible ok for a long phaser fight at distance with torps off.Please check the Fed Forum out.

[Tulwar]

I think 2nd Gen X ships are impossible to ballance, but 1st Gen X ships are plain dull.  In any case, I've made a shiplist that I intended for Dynaverse play that greatly expands the 2nd Gen X ships and tries to make some sort of ballence between them.

I had to add a few models, because I've added ships to cover all the move bases between 0.33 and 1.00, plus dreadnaughts.  I've done things like gave the Mirak more engine and fewer missles.  I had to completely redo the fighterlist, and assign year appropriate fighters, so the AI's wouldn't be a push-over.

If you would like to see my shiplist, contact me, the package is 36.5 MB, without a readme.  I'll need to cut out some models before it's ready for prime time.

[FPF-Paladin]

I made something like this for a server idea I was tossing around a while ago.  I threw out the early/mid/late/adv guidelines and canon progressions and made several in between variants of ships from normal early to X gen... basically just smaller steps from one ship to another that would normally be seen as the next refit up.  I honestly don't like X2, I used DH's modded X1 ships as a baseline.  I think I overdid it in any case, never did use the shiplist (can't nail myself down schedule wise to do a server so far, bleh).

[knightstorm]

actually, shortly after Roy posted this, he and I tested out a few stripped down versions of the X2 CAs.  Fewer weapons, weaker shields and hull, and power curves based on the races CCH, but retaining X2 heavy weapons.  They weren't perfect, mainly because of my lack of experience in that field but I feel they did prove the concept.

[FPF-Paladin]

That sounds cool... DH's versions basically replaced the X phasers with ph1's, heavy X weapons with normal heavies but adding 50% more of them... so 10 phX/4 Xphot = 10ph1/6 phot... worked out really well...