Topic: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

The worst problem with getting a new shiplist to work is that people need to adopt it, otherwise it fails. However, GSA seems to be split between the Adv crowd and the rest of us, so there actually might not be much interaction - either because of different game interests or some kind of hostility. This could make adopting a new list easier, since not everyone would need to have the same one if we don't all play together; at least there's one positive part about a splintered community.

Firesoul's OP Plus is a good list, but I don't believe it was designed for PvP BPV-based games.

So what would a new shiplist have?

• Switch late era to accommodate all ships up to but not including X1. Then, X1 would be switched to advanced era, and regular Adv X2 would be deleted entirely.
• Or, tone down and balance the Adv X2 a little. For example, give the Fed XCA four heavy photons to match the archetype Federation cruiser and match the opposing Klink XCA. (Not my idea, but I forgot to ask him if he would mind his name here).
• Eliminate, or at least tone down the Lyran Democratic Republic ships. Marc Michalik, author of the 'KKtacman' (http://www2.hawaii.edu/~craiga/kktacman.html), said it perfectly - "Without the same level of 'strategic awareness' that is present in SFB, there would be no reason to use Lyrans if the LDR were available." I personally don't understand why some things are possible, either, like the L-DCBP having 6 dizzies and 48 power compared to the L-BCHPp (4 and 46). If they could fit this junk in on the LDR then why didn't the Lyrans include it? Maybe it had weapons breakdown in SFB. Some LDR ships also keep the Lyrans in the dark, as in the case of the DFDD at 144 compared to the L-CWLP at 147.
• In general, some ships cost too low in the point-oriented nature of Gamespy. The I-CW comes to mind!!!! And a few others, like the G-DND. I am guessing here, but if certain ships weren't included in the stock SFC2 lists, then they couldn't have been used much in SFB, and there was probably a reason for that-->they shouldn't be used so often in SFC.
• Battle tugs and tugs in general make for more variety in campaigns, but are pretty cheap in PvP. A good original early era CA/CC match just isn't the same with stuff like the Z-TBT or CBT whatever.
• Maulers are getting old. I believe in tossing some of them out, so they are rarer choices in matches. This would also make them more of a risk to fly, if the only mauler you could afford was a class or two lower than other opposing ships at a given BPV. For now, hosting rules that allow only one mauler per team have worked well.

Please add some more ideas. Are there any good Dynaverse server lists that would work for Gamespy (I haven't looked at Hardcore yet)?

[Walleye]

I think the stock 2552 list is still best for Gamespy BPV matches.

I got ripped to shreds for saying this in the past but I still believe it.

It was balanced using data from thousands and thousands of SL matches during the peak of OP's popularity.

4.0 was created not because it was more balanced for BPV games but to make the SFB extreemists happy who cried the 2552 list was not SFB exact. There might have been some thought about dynaverse play too when it was made, I'm not sure, it seems to work OK there but for GSA 2552 is my first choice. Unfortunately I see no 2552 rooms on GSA so I may stand alone on this opinion but so be it. 

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I would definitely try stock 2552 OP. Do you mean it was balanced from many SFC1/EAW/pre-patch OP games before Orion Pirates was patched? I don't know anything about the online history of OP past about a year ago.

It should be possible to get enough players to use the stock 2552 shiplist with just a little pregame planning.

[FPF-DieHard]

I think the stock 2552 list is still best for Gamespy BPV matches.

I have no dog in this fight anymore, but I do not agree with you.

OP+ 4.0 was fine, just don't use the X2 ships which are not balanced at all to the right BPVs.  Are there enough people playing GSA to bother getting a new list that people will play with?  I haven't had this installed since my last HD crash.

[Julin Eurthyr]

The worst problem with getting a new shiplist to work is that people need to adopt it, otherwise it fails. However, GSA seems to be split between the Adv crowd and the rest of us, so there actually might not be much interaction - either because of different game interests or some kind of hostility. This could make adopting a new list easier, since not everyone would need to have the same one if we don't all play together; at least there's one positive part about a splintered community.

Firesoul's OP Plus is a good list, but I don't believe it was designed for PvP BPV-based games.

So what would a new shiplist have?

• Switch late era to accommodate all ships up to but not including X1. Then, X1 would be switched to advanced era, and regular Adv X2 would be deleted entirely.
• Or, tone down and balance the Adv X2 a little. For example, give the Fed XCA four heavy photons to match the archetype Federation cruiser and match the opposing Klink XCA. (Not my idea, but I forgot to ask him if he would mind his name here).
• Eliminate, or at least tone down the Lyran Democratic Republic ships. Marc Michalik, author of the 'KKtacman' (http://www2.hawaii.edu/~craiga/kktacman.html), said it perfectly - "Without the same level of 'strategic awareness' that is present in SFB, there would be no reason to use Lyrans if the LDR were available." I personally don't understand why some things are possible, either, like the L-DCBP having 6 dizzies and 48 power compared to the L-BCHPp (4 and 46). If they could fit this junk in on the LDR then why didn't the Lyrans include it? Maybe it had weapons breakdown in SFB. Some LDR ships also keep the Lyrans in the dark, as in the case of the DFDD at 144 compared to the L-CWLP at 147.
• In general, some ships cost too low in the point-oriented nature of Gamespy. The I-CW comes to mind!!!! And a few others, like the G-DND. I am guessing here, but if certain ships weren't included in the stock SFC2 lists, then they couldn't have been used much in SFB, and there was probably a reason for that-->they shouldn't be used so often in SFC.
• Battle tugs and tugs in general make for more variety in campaigns, but are pretty cheap in PvP. A good original early era CA/CC match just isn't the same with stuff like the Z-TBT or CBT whatever.
• Maulers are getting old. I believe in tossing some of them out, so they are rarer choices in matches. This would also make them more of a risk to fly, if the only mauler you could afford was a class or two lower than other opposing ships at a given BPV. For now, hosting rules that allow only one mauler per team have worked well.

Please add some more ideas. Are there any good Dynaverse server lists that would work for Gamespy (I haven't looked at Hardcore yet)?

Sadly, most of your complaint list revolves around the problem that has been plagueing SFC since Day 1, SFC I.

In that most any ship limited somehow by SFB, once it's limits are stripped out because of SFC's "no limit" nature, wind up being over-powerful...

However, that doesn't mean that they're invulnerable.  In many cases, an appropriate dosage of "counter-cheese" can deflate these ships quickly...

Specific counters:

X-ships, sadly, only other X's fill that role...

LDR ships are primarily knife fighters, in that Gatlings and ESGs are only effective within range 3 or less.  Outside that reach, most LDR ships are fairly weak.  And, once an LDR loses shields, they fall apart quickly because most of their hull went bye-bye to support all them extra guns...  To kill an LDR fleet, your best bet is long range gun-fighters (PPDed ISC like the DN/CC/CA/CM/CS lines, Hellbore Hydrans, Torp-heavy Feds, possibly Klink saber dancers and Gorn if you're good with them) flown to stay outside of range 4 at all costs...  Remember the adage "never bring a knife(-fighting LDR) to a gun-fight", just remember to have the guns, not the LDR...

Maulers (at least the Taldren-included "stock" Klink/Rommie/Lyran models) are typically one trick ponies with a narrow fire arc.  Again, a primarily long-ranged fleet flown to stay outside of that danger-arc & range should handle maulers appropriately.  Also, once a mauler "fires his wad", put and keep pressure on it, don't give it a chance to recharge the batteries that power the mauler, and it's ineffective after it's first shot...

Battle tugs, IIRC, are plagued by a high power-to-move ratio & very poor turn arcs.  This usually relegates them to "perma-starcastle" status, so appropriate anti-castle tactics should dispense of them appropriately.  Just remember to watch out for that FA arc, that's where most of that tug's DN-level firepower is concentrated...

The I-CM series is the ISC's CW-level line, they've been in stock SFC since EAW... there's not really much you can do against them, other than fly really good...

The G-DND (the last ship you mention) is just as conjectural/limited as the R-KHK, L-EGO, and other super-ships.  Just pick an equally cheesy opponent and smack it down...

Another tip is to learn some of the other cheese options available... Carriers (once you learn their tactics, if you can afford them) tend to out-cheese anything else, fast cruisers are typically evil if flown well as they can handle high (27+) speed while charging most/all weapons.

Oh, to answer the question you posed about the LDR:
A breakaway province of the Lyran Empire, the LDR consists of a total of 7 (F&E) hexes, arrainged in a 6-hex ring with the center being #7.  There are 3 bases situated in the 6 hex ring (alternating hexes), and the center hex has LDR HQ/and a DD-sized shipyard.
Notice the DD-sized shipyard.  This meant that all CL and bigger ships were literally irreplacable by the LDR's resources.  This practically ensured that the big ships would spend 90% of their time at a base, especially since it was a short trip from a base to any potential LDR trouble spot.  Since bases have things like plush staterooms and spare parts in abundance (the kind of things you find in a hull box), it was almost a no-brainer that most of the hull (outside of say, enough steerage-style bunkhouses and spare part storage to sustain a 2-week mission) should be converted into extra guns, so that a small LDR ship could blow up much larger enemy ships.  That travel restriction is what allows the LDR to be as overgunned as their contemporary Lyran counterparts...

[marstone]

unfortunately alot of what makes the game in SFB and F&E balance doesn't make it over to SFC, namely the Order of Battle, building limits, etc.  In SFC there is no problem buying those large ships all the time.  In fact the game maps are set up so they have enough points so they can build the large ships all the time.  Not so in the real (or not so real)world of SFB.

When you put in the OOB, those big and the cheese ships become more precious, as only a few are made each year (the economic costs, and shipyard space being limited). 

One of the reasons I got tired of playing SFB was the pickup games (GSA style playing).  Just throw out a point total and year, pick the best fleet you could and go at it.  If you lose all your ships oh well. Playing F&E, and playing out games in SFB then those ship losses meant something.  But sadly it is hard to add something like that to the standard pickup game style of GSA.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Thank you Marstone and Eurthyr. I know very little about SFB, so this is helpful.

Actually, the battle tugs I meant were the ones with good engines. I forget the class names, but there is a Fed tug (maybe LBT+?) that has 45 total power and a move cost of 1.00, along with many photons and phaser-1s. Also, a Klink battle tug with 8 disruptors, 42 total power and another 1.00 move cost. Fortunately, there are not too many like this.

I suppose the only real way to limit many certain ships would be in a Dynaverse server, and the only practical solution in Gamespy would be to host only certain points (like not 230, where everyone is a KHK or a CCZ).

[Walleye]

I think the stock 2552 list is still best for Gamespy BPV matches.

I have no dog in this fight anymore, but I do not agree with you.

OP+ 4.0 was fine, just don't use the X2 ships which are not balanced at all to the right BPVs.  Are there enough people playing GSA to bother getting a new list that people will play with?  I haven't had this installed since my last HD crash.

I know you don't agree with me you never have and never will, we have different opinions, no biggie.

There are not enough players on GSA to make a switch, but OP+ 4.0 is the new list 2552 is the old, and it worked wonderfully for years. It wasn't until the GSA lobby had significantly dwindled until 4.0 became the standard there.

[Age]

Thank you Marstone and Eurthyr. I know very little about SFB, so this is helpful.

Actually, the battle tugs I meant were the ones with good engines. I forget the class names, but there is a Fed tug (maybe LBT+?) that has 45 total power and a move cost of 1.00, along with many photons and phaser-1s. Also, a Klink battle tug with 8 disruptors, 42 total power and another 1.00 move cost. Fortunately, there are not too many like this.

I suppose the only real way to limit many certain ships would be in a Dynaverse server, and the only practical solution in Gamespy would be to host only certain points (like not 230, where everyone is a KHK or a CCZ).

This always happens on a Dyna server the best pilots fly the best ship mostly the heavy cheese iron like you said KHK and CCZ and those who have a ship under say 180 isn't much of a pvp match.I wouldn't mind seeing some more balances even in OP+ I find it strange when a F-NCL+ is pratically the same ship as FCC+ almost the same armament and has the same shields although you can fire your photons at speed 25 you can't in a FCC+.There simply isn't enough power like F-CB has.

[FPF-Paladin]

There is a world of difference between a F-NCL+ and F-CC+... maybe you should recheck the ship data and consider things like what happens to each ship after taking a kick in the teeth from an adversary...

It's not all about power and weapons, although those are pretty important too.  Don't forget to look at labs (shield regen) and add in non critical systems that will basically act as hull to soak up battle damage too.... plus a whole slew of other things to take into consideration...

[Lieutenant_Q]

There is a trade off between the F-NCL+ and the F-CC+, while having the same armaments. The F-NCL+ has a better movement rate, I think its 2/3, while the F-CC+ has a move rate of 1.  The trade off though?  The F-CC+ earns that movement rate of 1 by having more armor and hull.  Once the F-NCL+ loses shields, the tissue paper it has for armor isn't protecting it against much.

So if you're flying style says, I never lose my shields, the F-NCL+ is for you.  If you're only human, then you probably want the F-CC+.

[FPF-DieHard]

In 1v1 engagements, the F-CC+/F-CB is superior to the F-NCL+/F-CLC in every situation. 

[knightstorm]

In 1v1 engagements, the F-CC+/F-CB is superior to the F-NCL+/F-CLC in every situation. 

depends on what you are fighting.  If I'm going up against plasma, I find the extra speed of the war cruiser to be more useful.  If I'm going up against other races, the better survivability and shield regeneration of the Heavies is the way to go.

[Age]

In 1v1 engagements, the F-CC+/F-CB is superior to the F-NCL+/F-CLC in every situation.

I can see the F-CB but not so much the F-CC+ as the F-NCL+ going at high speed with ecm up with all photons loaded.I am not sure about the specs like labs and such etc etc.I would discuss  this more in the Fed forum.I know how great of a pilot you are DH no need to tell me.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

From what I understand, labs help shield regeneration and are also another non-vital system that is like 'padding.' Normal shields regenerate at 1 shield box each shield per turn, and for every 4 labs you have, you gain an extra shield box (for each of the six shields).

The speed of the CLC is nice, but I must admit there is some panache to flying a classic cruiser hull even if it is heavily beefed up to a CCH.

[Dizzy]

I think the stock 2552 list is still best for Gamespy BPV matches.

I have no dog in this fight anymore, but I do not agree with you.

~Woof!~

[FPF-DieHard]

depends on what you are fighting.  If I'm going up against plasma, I find the extra speed of the war cruiser to be more useful . . .

Assuming D2 loadouts . . .

What does a CLC do when the Romulan Castles?  What is the possible outcome besides closing and dying?   the F-CLC is only competitive against Plasma buckets if the Romulan is an idiot and chases you relentlessly. The CB still has enough power to remove their front shields if they do a maniacal chase.  Most will then castle-up at that point and the CB is MORE than capable     

During General War 4, I killed 20+ Romulan Heavy cruisers (NHKs, KRCS, RHK, KWR, F-FHK, etc . . .) in 3 days without loosing once in an F-CB in 1v1 engagements (Warsears did nail me in a droner though, I got cocky . . .).  These were against veteran pilots, not newbs. 

Could i do this now?   hell no!     Too much time in a BB/DNH rots your brain.   

Fleet engagements is a different ballgame.  This is where the War crusier speed pays off.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

What does a CLC do when the Romulan Castles?  What is the possible outcome besides closing and dying?   the F-CLC is only competitive against Plasma buckets if the Romulan is an idiot and chases you relentlessly. The CB still has enough power to remove their front shields if they do a maniacal chase.  Most will then castle-up at that point and the CB is MORE than capable     

I am a little confused, maybe I missed the point on why the CB is better against a castling Rom.

Is it because the CB's tougher hull lets it eat the plasma and then go in with overloads? Or that the few points of extra power allow for more reinforcement? Because I have no Fed experience I don't understand what they usually do to crack a castling plasma-user, or how the CB would be better at it than a CLC.

[FPF-DieHard]

What does a CLC do when the Romulan Castles?  What is the possible outcome besides closing and dying?   the F-CLC is only competitive against Plasma buckets if the Romulan is an idiot and chases you relentlessly. The CB still has enough power to remove their front shields if they do a maniacal chase.  Most will then castle-up at that point and the CB is MORE than capable     

I am a little confused, maybe I missed the point on why the CB is better against a castling Rom.

Is it because the CB's tougher hull lets it eat the plasma and then go in with overloads? Or that the few points of extra power allow for more reinforcement? Because I have no Fed experience I don't understand what they usually do to crack a castling plasma-user, or how the CB would be better at it than a CLC.

The Fed NCL/CLC can handle any Light Cruiser that the Romulans can deploy.  it just doesn't have the mojo to crack a castling Rom CA because it can't HET and can't take a hit.  if I'm in a CLC and I'm facing a Caslting Rom the best solution is DO NOT CLOSE EVER.  he'll eventually get bored and come out of the closet.  That should go without saying, always fight on your terms not your opponents. 

The F-CB you can exchange alpha-strikes and be better off.  Especially in kestralls, they are nice and crunchy.   

The trick is to tease a torp or 2 out of the Rom and have them hit your rear so you can close on him while he doesn't have a full load.    make two weasels and drop if you have to but NEVER for only one torp.  Most of the time after you've closed and exchanged shots, he'll start to move away, dump 4 T-bombs on the shield you just cracked for another 40 internals.   Your next shot of overloads will be ready before his plasmas, this volley should cripple.   Finish off with a Scatterpack.   You will likely eat between 100-200 internals in the battle but your opponent with be in an escape pod.   

The above DOES NOT work on Gorns.   The hulls are too tough.   the Cloak can REALLY screw this up for the Fed but at the time of GW4 (2004) though OP was fully-patched most Roms simply didn't cloak.  i've done this  Cloaking roms and has similar results but I was on steroids on GW4.   

 I consider this strictly a D2 tactic as you need the T-Boms, medium Drones, and 10 spares to really pull this off.   it's also EXTREMELY difficult to teach as you just have to close in, yell "LEROY JENKINS!!!!" and hope for the best.   then again on GSA an F-CB wouldn't fight an R-NHK unless the guys picking their ships don't know what they are doing.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

OK, thanks for clearing up the strategy, especially the part about taking the plasmas piecemeal on different shields.

Although you said it is a D2 tactic, it may just work on Gamespy, just because most players wouldn't expect it. About 80% of the photons I see used on GSA are proxies.