Topic: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist  (Read 13957 times)

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Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« on: November 08, 2008, 12:10:01 am »
The worst problem with getting a new shiplist to work is that people need to adopt it, otherwise it fails. However, GSA seems to be split between the Adv crowd and the rest of us, so there actually might not be much interaction - either because of different game interests or some kind of hostility. This could make adopting a new list easier, since not everyone would need to have the same one if we don't all play together; at least there's one positive part about a splintered community.

Firesoul's OP Plus is a good list, but I don't believe it was designed for PvP BPV-based games.

So what would a new shiplist have?

  • Switch late era to accommodate all ships up to but not including X1. Then, X1 would be switched to advanced era, and regular Adv X2 would be deleted entirely.
  • Or, tone down and balance the Adv X2 a little. For example, give the Fed XCA four heavy photons to match the archetype Federation cruiser and match the opposing Klink XCA. (Not my idea, but I forgot to ask him if he would mind his name here).
  • Eliminate, or at least tone down the Lyran Democratic Republic ships. Marc Michalik, author of the 'KKtacman' (http://www2.hawaii.edu/~craiga/kktacman.html), said it perfectly - "Without the same level of 'strategic awareness' that is present in SFB, there would be no reason to use Lyrans if the LDR were available." I personally don't understand why some things are possible, either, like the L-DCBP having 6 dizzies and 48 power compared to the L-BCHPp (4 and 46). If they could fit this junk in on the LDR then why didn't the Lyrans include it? Maybe it had weapons breakdown in SFB. Some LDR ships also keep the Lyrans in the dark, as in the case of the DFDD at 144 compared to the L-CWLP at 147.
  • In general, some ships cost too low in the point-oriented nature of Gamespy. The I-CW comes to mind!!!! And a few others, like the G-DND. I am guessing here, but if certain ships weren't included in the stock SFC2 lists, then they couldn't have been used much in SFB, and there was probably a reason for that-->they shouldn't be used so often in SFC.
  • Battle tugs and tugs in general make for more variety in campaigns, but are pretty cheap in PvP. A good original early era CA/CC match just isn't the same with stuff like the Z-TBT or CBT whatever.
  • Maulers are getting old. I believe in tossing some of them out, so they are rarer choices in matches. This would also make them more of a risk to fly, if the only mauler you could afford was a class or two lower than other opposing ships at a given BPV. For now, hosting rules that allow only one mauler per team have worked well.

Please add some more ideas. Are there any good Dynaverse server lists that would work for Gamespy (I haven't looked at Hardcore yet)?

Offline Walleye

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2008, 08:58:27 am »
I think the stock 2552 list is still best for Gamespy BPV matches.

I got ripped to shreds for saying this in the past but I still believe it.

It was balanced using data from thousands and thousands of SL matches during the peak of OP's popularity.

4.0 was created not because it was more balanced for BPV games but to make the SFB extreemists happy who cried the 2552 list was not SFB exact. There might have been some thought about dynaverse play too when it was made, I'm not sure, it seems to work OK there but for GSA 2552 is my first choice. Unfortunately I see no 2552 rooms on GSA so I may stand alone on this opinion but so be it. 

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 09:14:49 am »
I would definitely try stock 2552 OP. Do you mean it was balanced from many SFC1/EAW/pre-patch OP games before Orion Pirates was patched? I don't know anything about the online history of OP past about a year ago.

It should be possible to get enough players to use the stock 2552 shiplist with just a little pregame planning.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 07:48:35 am »
I think the stock 2552 list is still best for Gamespy BPV matches.


I have no dog in this fight anymore, but I do not agree with you.

OP+ 4.0 was fine, just don't use the X2 ships which are not balanced at all to the right BPVs.  Are there enough people playing GSA to bother getting a new list that people will play with?  I haven't had this installed since my last HD crash.
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Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 10:08:20 am »
The worst problem with getting a new shiplist to work is that people need to adopt it, otherwise it fails. However, GSA seems to be split between the Adv crowd and the rest of us, so there actually might not be much interaction - either because of different game interests or some kind of hostility. This could make adopting a new list easier, since not everyone would need to have the same one if we don't all play together; at least there's one positive part about a splintered community.

Firesoul's OP Plus is a good list, but I don't believe it was designed for PvP BPV-based games.

So what would a new shiplist have?

  • Switch late era to accommodate all ships up to but not including X1. Then, X1 would be switched to advanced era, and regular Adv X2 would be deleted entirely.
  • Or, tone down and balance the Adv X2 a little. For example, give the Fed XCA four heavy photons to match the archetype Federation cruiser and match the opposing Klink XCA. (Not my idea, but I forgot to ask him if he would mind his name here).
  • Eliminate, or at least tone down the Lyran Democratic Republic ships. Marc Michalik, author of the 'KKtacman' (http://www2.hawaii.edu/~craiga/kktacman.html), said it perfectly - "Without the same level of 'strategic awareness' that is present in SFB, there would be no reason to use Lyrans if the LDR were available." I personally don't understand why some things are possible, either, like the L-DCBP having 6 dizzies and 48 power compared to the L-BCHPp (4 and 46). If they could fit this junk in on the LDR then why didn't the Lyrans include it? Maybe it had weapons breakdown in SFB. Some LDR ships also keep the Lyrans in the dark, as in the case of the DFDD at 144 compared to the L-CWLP at 147.
  • In general, some ships cost too low in the point-oriented nature of Gamespy. The I-CW comes to mind!!!! And a few others, like the G-DND. I am guessing here, but if certain ships weren't included in the stock SFC2 lists, then they couldn't have been used much in SFB, and there was probably a reason for that-->they shouldn't be used so often in SFC.
  • Battle tugs and tugs in general make for more variety in campaigns, but are pretty cheap in PvP. A good original early era CA/CC match just isn't the same with stuff like the Z-TBT or CBT whatever.
  • Maulers are getting old. I believe in tossing some of them out, so they are rarer choices in matches. This would also make them more of a risk to fly, if the only mauler you could afford was a class or two lower than other opposing ships at a given BPV. For now, hosting rules that allow only one mauler per team have worked well.

Please add some more ideas. Are there any good Dynaverse server lists that would work for Gamespy (I haven't looked at Hardcore yet)?


Sadly, most of your complaint list revolves around the problem that has been plagueing SFC since Day 1, SFC I.

In that most any ship limited somehow by SFB, once it's limits are stripped out because of SFC's "no limit" nature, wind up being over-powerful...

However, that doesn't mean that they're invulnerable.  In many cases, an appropriate dosage of "counter-cheese" can deflate these ships quickly...

Specific counters:

X-ships, sadly, only other X's fill that role... :(

LDR ships are primarily knife fighters, in that Gatlings and ESGs are only effective within range 3 or less.  Outside that reach, most LDR ships are fairly weak.  And, once an LDR loses shields, they fall apart quickly because most of their hull went bye-bye to support all them extra guns...  To kill an LDR fleet, your best bet is long range gun-fighters (PPDed ISC like the DN/CC/CA/CM/CS lines, Hellbore Hydrans, Torp-heavy Feds, possibly Klink saber dancers and Gorn if you're good with them) flown to stay outside of range 4 at all costs...  Remember the adage "never bring a knife(-fighting LDR) to a gun-fight", just remember to have the guns, not the LDR...

Maulers (at least the Taldren-included "stock" Klink/Rommie/Lyran models) are typically one trick ponies with a narrow fire arc.  Again, a primarily long-ranged fleet flown to stay outside of that danger-arc & range should handle maulers appropriately.  Also, once a mauler "fires his wad", put and keep pressure on it, don't give it a chance to recharge the batteries that power the mauler, and it's ineffective after it's first shot...

Battle tugs, IIRC, are plagued by a high power-to-move ratio & very poor turn arcs.  This usually relegates them to "perma-starcastle" status, so appropriate anti-castle tactics should dispense of them appropriately.  Just remember to watch out for that FA arc, that's where most of that tug's DN-level firepower is concentrated...

The I-CM series is the ISC's CW-level line, they've been in stock SFC since EAW... there's not really much you can do against them, other than fly really good...

The G-DND (the last ship you mention) is just as conjectural/limited as the R-KHK, L-EGO, and other super-ships.  Just pick an equally cheesy opponent and smack it down...

Another tip is to learn some of the other cheese options available... Carriers (once you learn their tactics, if you can afford them) tend to out-cheese anything else, fast cruisers are typically evil if flown well as they can handle high (27+) speed while charging most/all weapons.

Oh, to answer the question you posed about the LDR:
A breakaway province of the Lyran Empire, the LDR consists of a total of 7 (F&E) hexes, arrainged in a 6-hex ring with the center being #7.  There are 3 bases situated in the 6 hex ring (alternating hexes), and the center hex has LDR HQ/and a DD-sized shipyard.
Notice the DD-sized shipyard.  This meant that all CL and bigger ships were literally irreplacable by the LDR's resources.  This practically ensured that the big ships would spend 90% of their time at a base, especially since it was a short trip from a base to any potential LDR trouble spot.  Since bases have things like plush staterooms and spare parts in abundance (the kind of things you find in a hull box), it was almost a no-brainer that most of the hull (outside of say, enough steerage-style bunkhouses and spare part storage to sustain a 2-week mission) should be converted into extra guns, so that a small LDR ship could blow up much larger enemy ships.  That travel restriction is what allows the LDR to be as overgunned as their contemporary Lyran counterparts...

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Offline marstone

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 02:10:06 pm »
unfortunately alot of what makes the game in SFB and F&E balance doesn't make it over to SFC, namely the Order of Battle, building limits, etc.  In SFC there is no problem buying those large ships all the time.  In fact the game maps are set up so they have enough points so they can build the large ships all the time.  Not so in the real (or not so real)world of SFB.

When you put in the OOB, those big and the cheese ships become more precious, as only a few are made each year (the economic costs, and shipyard space being limited). 

One of the reasons I got tired of playing SFB was the pickup games (GSA style playing).  Just throw out a point total and year, pick the best fleet you could and go at it.  If you lose all your ships oh well. Playing F&E, and playing out games in SFB then those ship losses meant something.  But sadly it is hard to add something like that to the standard pickup game style of GSA.
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Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2008, 03:22:45 pm »
Thank you Marstone and Eurthyr. I know very little about SFB, so this is helpful.

Actually, the battle tugs I meant were the ones with good engines. I forget the class names, but there is a Fed tug (maybe LBT+?) that has 45 total power and a move cost of 1.00, along with many photons and phaser-1s. Also, a Klink battle tug with 8 disruptors, 42 total power and another 1.00 move cost. Fortunately, there are not too many like this.

I suppose the only real way to limit many certain ships would be in a Dynaverse server, and the only practical solution in Gamespy would be to host only certain points (like not 230, where everyone is a KHK or a CCZ).

Offline Walleye

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 05:35:54 pm »
I think the stock 2552 list is still best for Gamespy BPV matches.


I have no dog in this fight anymore, but I do not agree with you.

OP+ 4.0 was fine, just don't use the X2 ships which are not balanced at all to the right BPVs.  Are there enough people playing GSA to bother getting a new list that people will play with?  I haven't had this installed since my last HD crash.

I know you don't agree with me you never have and never will, we have different opinions, no biggie.

There are not enough players on GSA to make a switch, but OP+ 4.0 is the new list 2552 is the old, and it worked wonderfully for years. It wasn't until the GSA lobby had significantly dwindled until 4.0 became the standard there.

Offline Age

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 07:47:59 pm »
Thank you Marstone and Eurthyr. I know very little about SFB, so this is helpful.

Actually, the battle tugs I meant were the ones with good engines. I forget the class names, but there is a Fed tug (maybe LBT+?) that has 45 total power and a move cost of 1.00, along with many photons and phaser-1s. Also, a Klink battle tug with 8 disruptors, 42 total power and another 1.00 move cost. Fortunately, there are not too many like this.

I suppose the only real way to limit many certain ships would be in a Dynaverse server, and the only practical solution in Gamespy would be to host only certain points (like not 230, where everyone is a KHK or a CCZ).
This always happens on a Dyna server the best pilots fly the best ship mostly the heavy cheese iron like you said KHK and CCZ and those who have a ship under say 180 isn't much of a pvp match.I wouldn't mind seeing some more balances even in OP+ I find it strange when a F-NCL+ is pratically the same ship as FCC+ almost the same armament and has the same shields although you can fire your photons at speed 25 you can't in a FCC+.There simply isn't enough power like F-CB has.

Offline FPF-Paladin

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2008, 10:11:07 pm »
There is a world of difference between a F-NCL+ and F-CC+... maybe you should recheck the ship data and consider things like what happens to each ship after taking a kick in the teeth from an adversary...

It's not all about power and weapons, although those are pretty important too.  Don't forget to look at labs (shield regen) and add in non critical systems that will basically act as hull to soak up battle damage too.... plus a whole slew of other things to take into consideration...
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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2008, 11:15:35 pm »
There is a trade off between the F-NCL+ and the F-CC+, while having the same armaments. The F-NCL+ has a better movement rate, I think its 2/3, while the F-CC+ has a move rate of 1.  The trade off though?  The F-CC+ earns that movement rate of 1 by having more armor and hull.  Once the F-NCL+ loses shields, the tissue paper it has for armor isn't protecting it against much.

So if you're flying style says, I never lose my shields, the F-NCL+ is for you.  If you're only human, then you probably want the F-CC+.
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2008, 02:12:41 pm »
In 1v1 engagements, the F-CC+/F-CB is superior to the F-NCL+/F-CLC in every situation. 

Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline knightstorm

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2008, 03:29:47 pm »
In 1v1 engagements, the F-CC+/F-CB is superior to the F-NCL+/F-CLC in every situation. 



depends on what you are fighting.  If I'm going up against plasma, I find the extra speed of the war cruiser to be more useful.  If I'm going up against other races, the better survivability and shield regeneration of the Heavies is the way to go.

Offline Age

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2008, 04:36:17 pm »
In 1v1 engagements, the F-CC+/F-CB is superior to the F-NCL+/F-CLC in every situation.


I can see the F-CB but not so much the F-CC+ as the F-NCL+ going at high speed with ecm up with all photons loaded.I am not sure about the specs like labs and such etc etc.I would discuss  this more in the Fed forum.I know how great of a pilot you are DH no need to tell me.

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2008, 04:54:16 pm »
From what I understand, labs help shield regeneration and are also another non-vital system that is like 'padding.' Normal shields regenerate at 1 shield box each shield per turn, and for every 4 labs you have, you gain an extra shield box (for each of the six shields).

The speed of the CLC is nice, but I must admit there is some panache to flying a classic cruiser hull even if it is heavily beefed up to a CCH.

Offline Dizzy

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2008, 03:38:35 pm »
I think the stock 2552 list is still best for Gamespy BPV matches.


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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2008, 09:55:13 am »

depends on what you are fighting.  If I'm going up against plasma, I find the extra speed of the war cruiser to be more useful . . .

Assuming D2 loadouts . . .

What does a CLC do when the Romulan Castles?  What is the possible outcome besides closing and dying?   the F-CLC is only competitive against Plasma buckets if the Romulan is an idiot and chases you relentlessly. The CB still has enough power to remove their front shields if they do a maniacal chase.  Most will then castle-up at that point and the CB is MORE than capable     

During General War 4, I killed 20+ Romulan Heavy cruisers (NHKs, KRCS, RHK, KWR, F-FHK, etc . . .) in 3 days without loosing once in an F-CB in 1v1 engagements (Warsears did nail me in a droner though, I got cocky . . .).  These were against veteran pilots, not newbs. 

Could i do this now?   hell no!   ;D  Too much time in a BB/DNH rots your brain.   

Fleet engagements is a different ballgame.  This is where the War crusier speed pays off.
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Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2008, 02:26:09 pm »
What does a CLC do when the Romulan Castles?  What is the possible outcome besides closing and dying?   the F-CLC is only competitive against Plasma buckets if the Romulan is an idiot and chases you relentlessly. The CB still has enough power to remove their front shields if they do a maniacal chase.  Most will then castle-up at that point and the CB is MORE than capable     
I am a little confused, maybe I missed the point on why the CB is better against a castling Rom.

Is it because the CB's tougher hull lets it eat the plasma and then go in with overloads? Or that the few points of extra power allow for more reinforcement? Because I have no Fed experience I don't understand what they usually do to crack a castling plasma-user, or how the CB would be better at it than a CLC.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2008, 04:09:49 pm »
What does a CLC do when the Romulan Castles?  What is the possible outcome besides closing and dying?   the F-CLC is only competitive against Plasma buckets if the Romulan is an idiot and chases you relentlessly. The CB still has enough power to remove their front shields if they do a maniacal chase.  Most will then castle-up at that point and the CB is MORE than capable     
I am a little confused, maybe I missed the point on why the CB is better against a castling Rom.

Is it because the CB's tougher hull lets it eat the plasma and then go in with overloads? Or that the few points of extra power allow for more reinforcement? Because I have no Fed experience I don't understand what they usually do to crack a castling plasma-user, or how the CB would be better at it than a CLC.

The Fed NCL/CLC can handle any Light Cruiser that the Romulans can deploy.  it just doesn't have the mojo to crack a castling Rom CA because it can't HET and can't take a hit.  if I'm in a CLC and I'm facing a Caslting Rom the best solution is DO NOT CLOSE EVER.  he'll eventually get bored and come out of the closet.  That should go without saying, always fight on your terms not your opponents. 

The F-CB you can exchange alpha-strikes and be better off.  Especially in kestralls, they are nice and crunchy.   

The trick is to tease a torp or 2 out of the Rom and have them hit your rear so you can close on him while he doesn't have a full load.    make two weasels and drop if you have to but NEVER for only one torp.  Most of the time after you've closed and exchanged shots, he'll start to move away, dump 4 T-bombs on the shield you just cracked for another 40 internals.   Your next shot of overloads will be ready before his plasmas, this volley should cripple.   Finish off with a Scatterpack.   You will likely eat between 100-200 internals in the battle but your opponent with be in an escape pod.   

The above DOES NOT work on Gorns.   The hulls are too tough.   the Cloak can REALLY screw this up for the Fed but at the time of GW4 (2004) though OP was fully-patched most Roms simply didn't cloak.  i've done this  Cloaking roms and has similar results but I was on steroids on GW4.   

 I consider this strictly a D2 tactic as you need the T-Boms, medium Drones, and 10 spares to really pull this off.   it's also EXTREMELY difficult to teach as you just have to close in, yell "LEROY JENKINS!!!!" and hope for the best.   then again on GSA an F-CB wouldn't fight an R-NHK unless the guys picking their ships don't know what they are doing.
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Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2008, 04:58:04 pm »
OK, thanks for clearing up the strategy, especially the part about taking the plasmas piecemeal on different shields.

Although you said it is a D2 tactic, it may just work on Gamespy, just because most players wouldn't expect it. About 80% of the photons I see used on GSA are proxies.


Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2008, 03:04:57 pm »
I would definitely try stock 2552 OP. Do you mean it was balanced from many SFC1/EAW/pre-patch OP games before Orion Pirates was patched? I don't know anything about the online history of OP past about a year ago.

It should be possible to get enough players to use the stock 2552 shiplist with just a little pregame planning.

Roy why aren't you guys flying Xp's Hardcore Shiplist?  It beats going back to 2552 and does address many of the problems here.  Plus it has sponsorship pof sorts here.

I'll give you a hint...Draco hates it.  :)

Anyway...


As I see it, many of the utility ships and ancilliary ships in SFB are were not designed to be integrated into a persistent universe.  A lot of them were built to fit into mods that had their own subset of rules. Plus the effect of certain weapons meant mostly for defensive uses worked well enough in a turn based ben and paper setting but produced unexpected results in a real time environment.  For example the mauler was a junk ship in SFB usually taken out right away but in real time play the mauler is the featured ship being escorted by ships of the line.

Well TUGS are ridiculous.  I mean the Mirak BT something or other can go toe to toe with a C7.  Easy.  Not to mention they have three variants of it and one with six dizzies that plays in Early.

I think Hardcore takes them out.

I'm not sure where the latest Hardcore shiplist is at.  I have no idea they are not posted for use here at the Dynaverse site but they are not.




Offline Bonk

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2008, 03:16:54 pm »
I'm not sure where the latest Hardcore shiplist is at.  I have no idea they are not posted for use here at the Dynaverse site but they are not.


It is here: ftp://www.dynaverse.net/sfc2_op/Mods/XC_MOD_PACKS/opplus_40_hc_setup.exe (Requires OP+ 4)

The announcement thread: Do you have what it takes to be HardCore?

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2008, 03:39:42 pm »
I would definitely try stock 2552 OP. Do you mean it was balanced from many SFC1/EAW/pre-patch OP games before Orion Pirates was patched? I don't know anything about the online history of OP past about a year ago.

It should be possible to get enough players to use the stock 2552 shiplist with just a little pregame planning.

Roy why aren't you guys flying Xp's Hardcore Shiplist?  It beats going back to 2552 and does address many of the problems here.  Plus it has sponsorship pof sorts here.

I'll give you a hint...Draco hates it.  :)

Anyway...


As I see it, many of the utility ships and ancilliary ships in SFB are were not designed to be integrated into a persistent universe.  A lot of them were built to fit into mods that had their own subset of rules. Plus the effect of certain weapons meant mostly for defensive uses worked well enough in a turn based ben and paper setting but produced unexpected results in a real time environment.  For example the mauler was a junk ship in SFB usually taken out right away but in real time play the mauler is the featured ship being escorted by ships of the line.

Well TUGS are ridiculous.  I mean the Mirak BT something or other can go toe to toe with a C7.  Easy.  Not to mention they have three variants of it and one with six dizzies that plays in Early.

I think Hardcore takes them out.

I'm not sure where the latest Hardcore shiplist is at.  I have no idea they are not posted for use here at the Dynaverse site but they are not.




Oh yes, I think Draco's favorite ship is that one Mirak tug!

I tried Hardcore out a little, and really like it. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether enough players would switch over to go along with it. It would be a great improvement to the current OP+ 4.0 which, like you said adds tons of SFB ships that were balanced in the SFB universe, but not in Lamespy play.

A positive of the HC installer is that it is so easy to switch from HC to 4.0 or back again. That should help its chances of being adopted, much easier than manually swapping the .txt files.

Rondo, do you remember the history of the mods for GSA? For example: people used 2552, then went to OP+ (where we are now). Was Hardcore ever extensively used on Gamespy?

Offline Bonk

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2008, 04:13:35 pm »
To balance OP+4 or SFB-OP for GSA or TCP/IP (or even Dynaverse) the solution is simple: Follow SFB CnC (Command and Control) rules. The problem is only 3 ships per player makes a dreadnought illegal under all conditions for two player games, however with six players on two teams (nine ships per side) then a dreadnought can be legally used (if I recall my SFB CnC properly) but not in a fleet of less than nine ships. 30+ years of playtesting speaks for the results. When using non-Taldren SFB style ships, then SFB CnC must be followed if you are to expect any semblance of balance.

Example: No leader versions outside a full squadron of three (frigates, light criuisers or new light cruisers). You want that D5L then you'll have to take two plain old D5s to go go with it. etc...

I long ago lost my SFB books, anyone care to outline the CnC rules in greater detail (accuracy)?

Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2008, 06:34:07 pm »
I would definitely try stock 2552 OP. Do you mean it was balanced from many SFC1/EAW/pre-patch OP games before Orion Pirates was patched? I don't know anything about the online history of OP past about a year ago.

It should be possible to get enough players to use the stock 2552 shiplist with just a little pregame planning.

Roy why aren't you guys flying Xp's Hardcore Shiplist?  It beats going back to 2552 and does address many of the problems here.  Plus it has sponsorship pof sorts here.

I'll give you a hint...Draco hates it.  :)

Anyway...


As I see it, many of the utility ships and ancilliary ships in SFB are were not designed to be integrated into a persistent universe.  A lot of them were built to fit into mods that had their own subset of rules. Plus the effect of certain weapons meant mostly for defensive uses worked well enough in a turn based ben and paper setting but produced unexpected results in a real time environment.  For example the mauler was a junk ship in SFB usually taken out right away but in real time play the mauler is the featured ship being escorted by ships of the line.

Well TUGS are ridiculous.  I mean the Mirak BT something or other can go toe to toe with a C7.  Easy.  Not to mention they have three variants of it and one with six dizzies that plays in Early.

I think Hardcore takes them out.

I'm not sure where the latest Hardcore shiplist is at.  I have no idea they are not posted for use here at the Dynaverse site but they are not.




Oh yes, I think Draco's favorite ship is that one Mirak tug!

I tried Hardcore out a little, and really like it. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether enough players would switch over to go along with it. It would be a great improvement to the current OP+ 4.0 which, like you said adds tons of SFB ships that were balanced in the SFB universe, but not in Lamespy play.

A positive of the HC installer is that it is so easy to switch from HC to 4.0 or back again. That should help its chances of being adopted, much easier than manually swapping the .txt files.

Rondo, do you remember the history of the mods for GSA? For example: people used 2552, then went to OP+ (where we are now). Was Hardcore ever extensively used on Gamespy?

No. I don't think it was.   While Frey and Stoney came on and hosted rooms it was used.  But its really a marketing job more than anything...Supply and Demand.

It will be a hard sell lets face it, there are more than a few pilots who like the idea of firing their G2's or a Mauler and not having to worry about SHIFT and all the other complexities of the game.  We are "post ladder" in SFC at this point...for in those days all that needed to happen was acceptance from the major Ladder Match Leagues like Starlance or GZ and no problem, the file was used.  So it would have to be done the hard way...Supply and Demand ...

Supply

1)  Make the mod easy to get and not stowed away in some thread somewhere  ...

Would the DYNA folks be willing to put the file in the Download section?  If not what about places like CUGS or making up your own website (I guess you would have to get XC's permission to feature the mod).  Also how does google work anyway? When I type "SFC HArdcore" I get nothing.  Any way to change that for free?


Demand (The critical part I guess)

2)  Target GSA "Hosts" and we'd have to sell them the concept.  People who can host are the powers on GSA.   When you come on make sure you always play a few games with Hardcore.   Another idea is hosting a tournament with Hardcore only.  Of course you have to have somethng to give away or at least a hosted site to post the results....(Why not here?).  I would simply start with hosting games and distributing Hardcore.

 
 

Offline Bonk

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2008, 07:00:51 pm »
1)  Make the mod easy to get and not stowed away in some thread somewhere  ...

Would the DYNA folks be willing to put the file in the Download section? 


Excellent suggestion Rondo, it is done. http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads.php?id=57&game=SFC2%20OP

Also how does google work anyway? When I type "SFC HArdcore" I get nothing.  Any way to change that for free?


Now that it is listed on our downloads page it should show on a google search for "XenoCorp HARDCORE" or "HARDCORE OP Plus" within a few days. (The next time they crawl that part of our site ... and it is all done for "free"!)
Quote
Googlebot activity in the last 90 days
Number of pages crawled per day
Maximum    40,162
Average    3,892
Minimum    3


e.g. like this currently appears as hit #1: http://www.google.com/search?q=Dynaverse.Net+Client+D2+Patch+Installer
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 07:46:00 pm by Bonk »

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2008, 07:05:02 pm »
No. I don't think it was.   While Frey and Stoney came on and hosted rooms it was used.  But its really a marketing job more than anything...Supply and Demand.

It will be a hard sell lets face it, there are more than a few pilots who like the idea of firing their G2's or a Mauler and not having to worry about SHIFT and all the other complexities of the game.  We are "post ladder" in SFC at this point...for in those days all that needed to happen was acceptance from the major Ladder Match Leagues like Starlance or GZ and no problem, the file was used.  So it would have to be done the hard way...Supply and Demand ...

Supply

1)  Make the mod easy to get and not stowed away in some thread somewhere  ...

Would the DYNA folks be willing to put the file in the Download section?  If not what about places like CUGS or making up your own website (I guess you would have to get XC's permission to feature the mod).  Also how does google work anyway? When I type "SFC HArdcore" I get nothing.  Any way to change that for free?


Demand (The critical part I guess)

2)  Target GSA "Hosts" and we'd have to sell them the concept.  People who can host are the powers on GSA.   When you come on make sure you always play a few games with Hardcore.   Another idea is hosting a tournament with Hardcore only.  Of course you have to have somethng to give away or at least a hosted site to post the results....(Why not here?).  I would simply start with hosting games and distributing Hardcore.

 
 
1. IIRC, I first saw the Hardcore mod download when looking at the CUGS site. Since then, they have changed their site and the download section is incomplete, but I don't see why they wouldn't put it up again when they do update the site. I'm not sure about getting Google to include a certain site.
 edit: Nice, thanks Bonk.

2. My hosting isn't the most reliable but I will start using HC, and there are a few other hosts I can think of that would probably give it a shot too. I mentioned before how the GSA crowd is divided, but those who wouldn't give Hardcore a chance don't really come to our rooms much anyways ("Ewww, 130 no X?!?!?").

Offline Age

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2008, 07:29:00 pm »

depends on what you are fighting.  If I'm going up against plasma, I find the extra speed of the war cruiser to be more useful . . .

Assuming D2 loadouts . . .

What does a CLC do when the Romulan Castles?  What is the possible outcome besides closing and dying?   the F-CLC is only competitive against Plasma buckets if the Romulan is an idiot and chases you relentlessly. The CB still has enough power to remove their front shields if they do a maniacal chase.  Most will then castle-up at that point and the CB is MORE than capable     

During General War 4, I killed 20+ Romulan Heavy cruisers (NHKs, KRCS, RHK, KWR, F-FHK, etc . . .) in 3 days without loosing once in an F-CB in 1v1 engagements (Warsears did nail me in a droner though, I got cocky . . .).  These were against veteran pilots, not newbs. 

Could i do this now?   hell no!   ;D  Too much time in a BB/DNH rots your brain.   

Fleet engagements is a different ballgame. This is where the War crusier speed pays off.
I remember that server very well and how you just discovoered the F-CB.I would do much of the same thing in CLC castle and shoot proxies.The Question is can you do the same thing in F-CC+ if not what good are they to fight Klinks instead of Roms.I see a lot of Races in the shiplist who have more power then an F-CC+ doesn't an L-CC have more power.

When it comes to preferences on heavies mine are Early F-CAR,F-CC Middle to Late F-CAI,F-CB,F-CVD,F-CAD+,F-NCA,F-NCC, and Advanced F-CX(Firesouls version 4x photon can have 12x phaser type 1s).

I thought Hardcore was just the same as OP+4.0 with all the Tugs removed?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 02:21:56 am by Age »

Offline Bonk

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2008, 07:39:38 pm »
I thought Hardcore was just the same as OP+4.0 with all the Tugs removed?

Quote
What's different? All the tugs, scouts, and other ships that were included for the sake of completeness in the original OP Plus 4.0 are now removed. This is a lean, mean fighting machine shiplist based on what would have been available during the General War / Federation & Empire era's in SFB. No more relying on uber ships to win a match, now you've got to have the skilz to be HARDCORE.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2008, 08:15:19 am »
The Question is can you do the same thing in F-CC+ . . . .

The CC+ is okay against Roms until about 2270.   After that you are at a huge disadvantage.
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Offline FPF-Paladin

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2008, 02:32:50 pm »
I thought Hardcore was just the same as OP+4.0 with all the Tugs removed?

Quote
What's different? All the tugs, scouts, and other ships that were included for the sake of completeness in the original OP Plus 4.0 are now removed. This is a lean, mean fighting machine shiplist based on what would have been available during the General War / Federation & Empire era's in SFB. No more relying on uber ships to win a match, now you've got to have the skilz to be HARDCORE.

Mmmm Hardcore.

When do you guys usually go on for these non-X matches?  I'd do Hardcore shiplist in a second.
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Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2008, 06:50:47 pm »
I'm in California.  Don't usually get on until 0800 PM PST.  But there are player on and off from 6 - 11 (pm) PST. 

Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2008, 07:52:14 pm »
Yes, and also, most players seem there on Friday and Saturdays during those times.

Offline FPF-Paladin

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2008, 10:35:45 am »
Rgr, I'll try to keep an eye out.
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2008, 06:08:48 pm »
Now that it is listed on our downloads page it should show on a google search for "XenoCorp HARDCORE" or "HARDCORE OP Plus" within a few days. (The next time they crawl that part of our site ... and it is all done for "free"!)
Quote
Googlebot activity in the last 90 days
Number of pages crawled per day
Maximum    40,162
Average    3,892
Minimum    3


e.g. like this currently appears as hit #1: http://www.google.com/search?q=Dynaverse.Net+Client+D2+Patch+Installer


It has been crawled (hit #1 in both cases):
http://www.google.com/search?q=Xenocorp+Hardcore
http://www.google.com/search?q=Hardcore+OP+Plus
 8)

Offline Age

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2008, 03:49:45 pm »
The Question is can you do the same thing in F-CC+ . . . .

The CC+ is okay against Roms until about 2270. After that you are at a huge disadvantage.
It is not that I think it is bad ship possible ok for a long phaser fight at distance with torps off.Please check the Fed Forum out.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2008, 10:34:55 pm »
I think 2nd Gen X ships are impossible to ballance, but 1st Gen X ships are plain dull.  In any case, I've made a shiplist that I intended for Dynaverse play that greatly expands the 2nd Gen X ships and tries to make some sort of ballence between them.

I had to add a few models, because I've added ships to cover all the move bases between 0.33 and 1.00, plus dreadnaughts.  I've done things like gave the Mirak more engine and fewer missles.  I had to completely redo the fighterlist, and assign year appropriate fighters, so the AI's wouldn't be a push-over.

If you would like to see my shiplist, contact me, the package is 36.5 MB, without a readme.  I'll need to cut out some models before it's ready for prime time.
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Offline FPF-Paladin

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2008, 12:30:00 pm »
I made something like this for a server idea I was tossing around a while ago.  I threw out the early/mid/late/adv guidelines and canon progressions and made several in between variants of ships from normal early to X gen... basically just smaller steps from one ship to another that would normally be seen as the next refit up.  I honestly don't like X2, I used DH's modded X1 ships as a baseline.  I think I overdid it in any case, never did use the shiplist (can't nail myself down schedule wise to do a server so far, bleh).
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2008, 12:58:26 pm »
actually, shortly after Roy posted this, he and I tested out a few stripped down versions of the X2 CAs.  Fewer weapons, weaker shields and hull, and power curves based on the races CCH, but retaining X2 heavy weapons.  They weren't perfect, mainly because of my lack of experience in that field but I feel they did prove the concept.

Offline FPF-Paladin

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2008, 01:13:51 pm »
That sounds cool... DH's versions basically replaced the X phasers with ph1's, heavy X weapons with normal heavies but adding 50% more of them... so 10 phX/4 Xphot = 10ph1/6 phot... worked out really well...
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Offline Roychipoqua_Mace

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2008, 07:43:17 pm »
Knight's list worked out well, there weren't any "super ships" for any race, and it was interesting that it proved that the X2 weapons could be balanced as long as they were put on balanced ships. It would be fun to try DH's version sometime.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Ideas for a new GSA shiplist
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2008, 09:08:50 am »
Knight's list worked out well, there weren't any "super ships" for any race, and it was interesting that it proved that the X2 weapons could be balanced as long as they were put on balanced ships. It would be fun to try DH's version sometime.

Play on the next D2 Server!!  :)

I always thought the SFBish X-ships that I ripped off played nicer with the General War era ships.   The 50% increase in direct-fire heavies was to make up for the lack of fast loads.   Doesn't work out the same but it's close.  It also solved some balance issues post 2280 like the Hydran DNs totally sucking.   Since the DNs are death-traps at that point fly/build X-tech instead.  The Gorn and Mirak BCHs are kinda weak but who cares when their CXs are really sweat.  The Roms don't need no stinkin' KCR when they got an FHX.   Etc . . .
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