Topic: Next up...KDF Warhammer, need some input...

[Raven Night]

You guys are probably familiar with this design. I intend to change a few more things, perhaps make the cannons on the end of the wings look more like the large pods underneath the wing of the Neghvar...I like that design and I think it might work here.

But I have a few problems I have to overcome first.

First and foremost, the designation and the size. I have been playing around with the idea of making her the same size as the Defiant, sort of making this ship the Klingon Defiant, but the Klingons already have a Defiant....its called the BOP. It is more likely that Starfleet designed the Defiant based on the concept of the Klingon and Romulan Birds of Prey. She would be about 120 - 130 meters in length if I went this route.

Or I could upsize her to the "Kvort" class from TNG, putting her around the length of 320m, or basically in the same size class as my recently completed E-7. Then she would be more in line with the Intrepid class and could land like the Intrepid on planets, the reason for building her in the first place. This would make her the second largest ship in the Klingon fleet capable of planetary landings (the Nethak is the largest, but is more of a heavily armed cargo carrier).

Finally, the size I choose would determine her designation. If she is to be Defiant sized I am leaning toward some type of two digit D designation higher than D-12 (modern Brels are probably D-15, Modern Kvorts are probably C-15) or a C designation in the 13 to 15 range. If she is to be Intrepid sized, then the E class designation would come into play, and she would most probably carry a higher designation than the E-7, probably E-8 or 9.

So here is the first question

Should the ship be Defiant sized or Intrepid sized? Can you state reasons why you chose the size you did? What designation do you suggest as a result of your choice and why?

The next problem is poly count. Right now she sits at about 8200 polys, a bit high IMO. I can probably trim out some of the polys here and there, but the truth is if I rebuild the cannons she is going to hit upwards of 9000 polys probably, even with my conservation efforts.

Now, originally she had moving cannons as well as moving wings, so removing the moving cannon barrels and making them static reduced the overall count alot, but it is still too high. I have alot of greebles on the neck, so I can do some reduction there...here is my question...

What is the reasonable limit nowadays on poly count? Would it be worth it to have a higher poly count if the wing cannons were more detailed? Would removing some of the piping and replacing it with textures reduce the overall realistic feel of the mesh?

The final question...the overall theme for the color setup. I have three choices really...I can go with a traditional BOP (Brel/Kvort) bright color scheme, a more subdued color scheme (Ktinga) or a real fancy one (Qonos 1)...I am leaning toward the Brel/Kvort. Here is the question.

Which would you prefer for an overall texture scheme: Kvort/Brel style, Ktinga (TMP) style or Qonos 1 style?

Here is a quick picture of the mesh to get you guys reaquainted.

[GotAFarmYet?]

So here is the first question

Should the ship be Defiant sized or Intrepid sized? Can you state reasons why you chose the size you did? What designation do you suggest as a result of your choice and why?

The Warhammetr is fine, as it would be a small ship with a hard punch, and I would go Defiant or samller.
Few reasons:

Economy the Kligons were in a decline in the TMP and TNG eras they could not keep large forces in action so smaller ships that could be repaired on any planet and not just a space dock would be a plus. A small ship also cost less to run and would be both easier and cheaper to maintain. With the Kligon houses probably having to build and maintain them themselves smaller would be better. It would also reduce the need for large starbases are needed and smaller battle stations could be used instead.

Control would be next with empire in decline, large fleets would be burden to them. The emperor would take control of the space docks where large ships could be built and maintained so that only Imperial ships would have a priority or be maintained built. With fewer large warships to worry about and the fleet of larger ships loyal to the emperior not to the houses control and rebellion would be easier to handle.

Wings fold for atmospheric flight on the design be looks, so a smaller ship would be better to land and park on a planet. With the only repair centers planetary bound size to get in and out of factories would be a issue as well as a armored area to protect them if caught on the ground.

The next problem is poly count. Right now she sits at about 8200 polys, a bit high IMO. I can probably trim out some of the polys here and there, but the truth is if I rebuild the cannons she is going to hit upwards of 9000 polys probably, even with my conservation efforts.

With what I suggest in the pic below you should be able to shave a 1000 or so polies

Now, originally she had moving cannons as well as moving wings, so removing the moving cannon barrels and making them static reduced the overall count alot, but it is still too high. I have alot of greebles on the neck, so I can do some reduction there...here is my question...

What is the reasonable limit nowadays on poly count? Would it be worth it to have a higher poly count if the wing cannons were more detailed? Would removing some of the piping and replacing it with textures reduce the overall realistic feel of the mesh?

In SFC it was about 12,000 or so before the model would cause a error in the game, once the mdel file gets over a certain size it will not load. Textures themselves cause issues too the larger that they are and the more of them will lag the software engine. there are a few things that can be done about that like reduced resolution and bits per colour (reducing the colour count to the texture). But yes texture work can look right if done with care in both the places used and the angles you use when making the 3d effects with them. Mostly if you avoid large flat areas it can be done, in samll places they can be used quite effectivily to reduce modelled parts.

The final question...the overall theme for the color setup. I have three choices really...I can go with a traditional BOP (Brel/Kvort) bright color scheme, a more subdued color scheme (Ktinga) or a real fancy one (Qonos 1)...I am leaning toward the Brel/Kvort. Here is the question.

Which would you prefer for an overall texture scheme: Kvort/Brel style, Ktinga (TMP) style or Qonos 1 style?

I would follow the same colour and patterns as the E-7, they have simular styles for the looks which means they would be more or less from the same time period. This would dictate the colour more or less than the size, as they would use simular materials and trends in construction. The Qonos 1 was a embassiters ship and probably purposily made to look that way as to be different from a standard ship of the line and to appear more impressive that some one of authority was around or coming to you.


also included the pic with suggestions

[Shadowfleet]

Raven the Warhammer is a beauty - truly a work of art. I agree with the suggestions on the pic above except - leave the neck as is. There appear to be a greebles you could remove on it that could be replaced with textures, but otherwise I like the aesthetics of the indention on top and the additional support beams below. Also leave the roll bar on the front unless it would subtract significant polies. Warhammer is okay but I like cha'bIp, a klingon bird known for its speed -- E-5A or C-5A be a good designation

Should the ship be Defiant sized or Intrepid sized? Can you state reasons why you chose the size you did? What designation do you suggest as a result of your choice and why?


I think she'd make a great Klingon analog to the defiant. Fast maneuverable little ship that really packs a wallop - by itself or in groups of three. The design looks like it's moving even when its sitting still, and she looks like you definitely better approach her with extreme caution  - and even then your chances of survival aren't good. Especially if faced with a pack of these little babies.

Now, originally she had moving cannons as well as moving wings, so removing the moving cannon barrels and making them static reduced the overall count alot, but it is still too high. I have alot of greebles on the neck, so I can do some reduction there...here is my question...


Keep the cannons stationary but... three versions with the wings down, level, and up would be "IMPRESSIVE!"

The final question...the overall theme for the color setup. I have three choices really...I can go with a traditional BOP (Brel/Kvort) bright color scheme, a more subdued color scheme (Ktinga) or a real fancy one (Qonos 1)...I am leaning toward the Brel/Kvort. Here is the question.


Go with a color scheme to match your released C-9A or new E-7, or maybe a combo of the two. Your textures rock so whatever you decide I'm sure she'll be awesome.

As always - thanks for sharing Raven. I can't wait to fly the E-7 or the Warhammer