Topic: What's more important? Playing the "game" or Playing the "map"

[FPF-DieHard]

Playing the "Game" in D2 is enjoying the missions themselves.   Playing a mission for the fun of playing the mission.   The reward is the personal PP award and the fun you et from completing the task.  PvP is for the fun of PvP.

Playing the map is when the whole goal is to affect as many DVs as possible in the least amount of time.   The reward is the long term strategic victory in the hex-flipping war.   PvP is a means of controlling hexes.

I always considered the top options to be more enjoyable, but I can't envision a "serious D2 server" without the second option being the primary goal.

Malak had mentioned how he an lear had a blast in a 50 minute AI mission.  That does sound like a lot of fun, but when you got barbarians at the gate (or if you are the barbarian at the gate) I wouldn't want to spend that much time fighting AI.  I was always of the opinion that the AI fights should be easy with the "epic" battles being against human players but this just doesn't work anymore with a low population and a good percentage of that not into PvP.

[knightstorm]

I'ld say playing the game in the context of playing the map.  While I'm not fond of the pvp point system, which is why during the last server, I flew mostly in low movement cost command ships, I liked doing my part by fighting pvp in contested hexes, and occasionally forcing my opponents to withdraw for an hour.  Its hard to score kills with a CLC, because if you manage to hurt someone, they are going to run rather than risk giving up points to a ship that's worth none.

[Pestalence_XC]

DH, I think it should be a balance of both..

I can't see how someone has fun flying a Z-DE in a 1 min and 10 sec mission ... The AI battles should have more substance and tactical depth..

Also I can't see the servers as being fun without PVP, which is the purpose of having VC spots on the map, which you have a very limited number of and get everyone concentrating on them..

How I can see how you could get frustrated taking an AI mission near the front lines that will tie you up for 10 to 15 min.. possibly longer.. however your opponent is in the same boat..

Last server I had some PVP, but it was limited.. either I was too slow catchig them, or when I was in a PVP match for 40 to 50 min or longer.. the hex that was Fed when I went in with a DV of 6, I came out and it was Red with a DV of 5 from everyone running mission under me..

Now if you increase the time for an AI mission, or heaven forbid having AI superior to you and you run (which with the current scripts I am testing takes approx 13 min to leave the map).. Players can't tie you up and swipe the hex you are trying to defend.. at least not running solo missions under you.. which would eat their manpower and still slow them down..

Now hitting PVP would make for a great fight and you don't have to worry if your hex is gone when you come out.. It might be a DV or 2 lower, but not flipped and run all the way up to the other side..

This would also make the campaigns last a bit longer.. not just a month.. maybe 6 weeks, thus people will have ample time to play .. many were caught going on vacation with AOTK 4 which had a good run time.. but I think having a persistent long term server, following a similar ruleset to AOTK 4 with RMs calculating VC's each week.. Having every ship kill count for VC points (to get everyone in all types of hulls trying to make points for their side) would make for a good campaign..

and the nice side of it is that is players get burnt on the D2 campaign.. they can take 2 or 3 days away, come back and not much changing.. no radical shifts of power.. maybe some shifting on the VC hexes, and maybe a push to cut a LOS.. but not like the Coalition did to the Alliance on AOTK 4.. or the way the Alliance retaliated back on the Coalition..

Radical shifts like that will make players upset and dishearten them to the point that they quit the server...

There has to be a balance in it somewhere.. I run a Z-DE and pull 2 F-CC's in a mission.. Now I am going to have to fight.. I can't plan to fire a SP at range, set tractor.. fire Missiles, grab ship with Tractor.. wait for first drone wave to hit, fire second wave, and then death drag the ship into the incoming SP missiles and then if necessary, finish enemy off with final drone wave.. You know.. 1 to 2 min missions..

With 2 F-CC's, you now have to power manage, micromanage, and use tactics to kill both ships.. or you can run.. but the 1 min 10 sec missions would be gone.. they are just monotonous and boring.. I rather have the challenge of defeating the AI which has superior numbers than to run a drone boat all server..

now VC areas, this is where PVP comes in.. to see who is going to hold the hex, who is going to play the Submarine waiting game.. these need to be pushed as well..

Now with the current scripts I have in testing from NW, it is best to fly with a wing or 2, not as a single player.. sure a single player can handle them but will take a while.. so it reinforces flying in wings and escorts and so forth.. which would almost make every PVP match a 2 vs 2 or 2 vs 3..

I just can't think of any better way to balance hex flipping, poor AI missions with PVP.. a 1 min 10 sec mission vs a 1 and 1/2 hour PVP match with 1 min and 10 sec missions playing under you for either side.. that is not balanced... an Ai mission should take about as long or half as long as a human match..

Say PVP usually lasts an hour or more.. lets say 1 hour.. a good AI battle should last 30 min.. and you should have the possibility of having your butt handed to you by the AI..

The biggest complaint of the D2 for the last 8 years is that the AI is too stupid or too easy..

Well I am trying to help balance that...

I understand that the goal is PVP, and VC's are the way to do that along with kill points for pvp.. as well as having low DV values of hexes like DV's of 3 to 5 for neutral space and 8 to 10 for planets and 12 to 15 for Homeworlds..

what this does is makes it to where if you want a hex, you have to WORK for it either against AI or PVP.. and the harder the AI, the more players will be looking for PVP.. however taking a hex against AI would be about 1 and 1/2 hours to get it to 0 (given the hex is a max 3 DV) and another 1 and 1/2 hour to get the DV built up for your side.. where PVP only battles would take 3 hours or longer to run the DV down to 0 if you are always successful..

My ideas are for balance.. I call it hardcore because servers of the past are way too easy on the AI.. with the scripts that I asked Dave to make.. It brings a challenge to the AI that has been missing from the game all along.. the balancing factor of the D2..

Imagine the horror of losing to the AI.. people here say "People just want to get on and kill things" .. I disagree.. everyone I have talked to get on the D2 to find PVP to get a challenge and bitch about how stupid or easy the AI is.. well change what they are bitching about and see how it goes.. beef the AI up to where it will smack you around and make you run like a Biatch.. those who have tried my server so far have mostly been supportive of the settings.. they know going in that the AI is no punk.. and the challenge is to jump on and beat the crap out of the AI if possible, and if others are on, get a good wing and then see what happens.. add on top of that you get a Human opponent,, then it is really on..

It is all for balancing things out.

So DH.. I am for balancing the D2 for both AI and PVP ... make it challenging, that was the original purpose of the D2 in addition to having campaigns.. the D2 is suppose to be a campaign, but the AI was inadequate to the task.. now that scripts are fixing that, and the AI having the ability to flip hexes only from a human player mission, then the server really becomes a challenge ever before you start adding in PVP or VC's..

This is what I believe people have wanted for 8 years.. it is just coming about way late in the game with a minuscule player base.. which may hve a detrimental effect on the D2.. but I still have to try it out and test it out.. and by golly, even tough it is vs AI, it is a hell of a lot of fun not knowing if my tactics will work or not.. or if I am going to get good dice rolls or bad ones... but either way, the AI is still a formidable challenge and I have to work for a win instead of cheese boat my way through the missions in 1 min and 10 sec.

Just my $.02

I expect change back.

[FPF-DieHard]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but what about returning/new players who have trouble beating the AI?   We STILL have this in 2008.

What might makes sense is if the attacking missions were significantly harder than the defense missions.

Do these missions AI-strip?   Haven't tested them yet.

[Leto Atreides]

pesty- i love what you've done here. never have i run from ai before. except in a solo base assault on aotk4. this game is evolving thanks to the efforts of these new script writers. keep up the good work.

dh- i totally agree on the new player being overwhelmed to the point of giving up against these new scripts. your idea to make defensive missions easier is awesome. keep up the good work also.

[Pestalence_XC]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but what about returning/new players who have trouble beating the AI? We STILL have this in 2008.

What might makes sense is if the attacking missions were significantly harder than the defense missions.

Do these missions AI-strip? Haven't tested them yet.

This needs to be tested.. I can make a mini map to test PVP and we can check to see if the AI strips out of PVP.. as for Human vs AI.. I think the ships come fully loaded.. with era appropriate drones.

[FPF-DieHard]

I think the ships come fully loaded.. with era appropriate drones.

Ouch, that's BIG ouch after 2280 when trying to fly non-X plasma buckets in Mirak/Klink/Fed Space after 2280.   I don't see how this helps anything, you can still beat multiple AIs but once they all get fast drones this is extremely difficult if you aren't in a ships with tons of non-power Drone defense. 

We've done this before and there's a reason we stopped

[KBFLordKrueg]

What Pesty said...
Well put, Pestalence...

now, where's that + karma button?

[Pestalence_XC]

I think the ships come fully loaded.. with era appropriate drones.

Ouch, that's BIG ouch after 2280 when trying to fly non-X plasma buckets in Mirak/Klink/Fed Space after 2280. I don't see how this helps anything, you can still beat multiple AIs but once they all get fast drones this is extremely difficult if you aren't in a ships with tons of non-power Drone defense.

We've done this before and there's a reason we stopped

If the Drones tend to be too much, i will ask Dave to lower them to a max of Med speed.. Speed 24 seems adequate for a D2 server.. AI with speed 16 drones in Late era are still sitting ducks..

[Corbomite]

I think the ships come fully loaded.. with era appropriate drones.

Ouch, that's BIG ouch after 2280 when trying to fly non-X plasma buckets in Mirak/Klink/Fed Space after 2280.   I don't see how this helps anything, you can still beat multiple AIs but once they all get fast drones this is extremely difficult if you aren't in a ships with tons of non-power Drone defense. 

We've done this before and there's a reason we stopped

I'm not in favor of loading every AI with era specific Drones and Fighters either. What I want is random loadout possibilites so that the, say for example, Fed Carrier I'm facing has a chance to get better Fighters and Drones in later eras. I want it on a ship by ship basis too so that I could be facing three Klingons all with different speed Drones.

[Dizzy]

I agree with Corbo. The BEST way to code the mission if it is possible is with variable loadouts where there is a random chance that any ship may have upgraded drones and fighters. If variable loadouts are not possible, then limiting drone speed to middle era is best. I never want to see fast drones and late fighters on every AI ship I fight again. Too frustrating.

[Pestalence_XC]

I agree with Corbo. The BEST way to code the mission if it is possible is with variable loadouts where there is a random chance that any ship may have upgraded drones and fighters. If variable loadouts are not possible, then limiting drone speed to middle era is best. I never want to see fast drones and late fighters on every AI ship I fight again. Too frustrating.

I agree.. but since I am not familiar with how the scripts work with load outs.. I will have to talk to Dave about this when he gets back from Vacation.. I would like to see it all random.. but middle of the road on Drones is good.. and the fighters as well.. but I would like to have the chance of having a few ships show up with Late Era loadouts.. If not possible.. limiting to Mid Era would be just as good.

Let me get with Dave when he gets back.

[Age]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but what about returning/new players who have trouble beating the AI? We STILL have this in 2008.

What might makes sense is if the attacking missions were significantly harder than the defense missions.

Do these missions AI-strip? Haven't tested them yet.

The servers I have played on the ones you and Kroma made up I had no problems with the AI unless i got a bad script where I was in a DW and a DN showed up other than that no problems.I enjoyed those btw GJ.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Tired of fighting AI no matter how tough or easy it is. Single player mode can do that. I want to run into people on a frequent basis.

[[KBF]MuadDib]

love where your going with this pesty!

but agree with dh...

players who have a hard time with ai and new players need to be taken into account...

while i dont find quick missions boring...they do need to be reigned in...

think these hardcore missions will be a great addition to any server...

[marstone]

For myself, I like to run a map, but not in the one minute mission thing.  Flying battles that are fairly balanced is fun, slight off balance can be interesting, and way off balance only if needed (thus having a map that needs to be flipped will force off balance fights to an extent).

I don't mind Pvp, but usually I end up in a small ship against a CA or DN.  Options are stay and die and maybe scratch a shield or two (I do this option mostly if it happens) or run and save your PP you put in your ship (which in a small ship isn't alot but it can be all you have).

So people who complain about not anough Pvp fights but fly around in a DN, BB or BC all the time are adding to the ones that just want to flip hexes because blow out fights are not that fun.

So I guess short answer is Map.  Based on how the game is running ATM

[KBF-Crim]

There are times for both....

[KBF MalaK]

<snip>
Malak had mentioned how he an lear had a blast in a 50 minute AI mission.  That does sound like a lot of fun, but when you got barbarians at the gate (or if you are the barbarian at the gate) I wouldn't want to spend that much time fighting AI.  I was always of the opinion that the AI fights should be easy with the "epic" battles being against human players but this just doesn't work anymore with a low population and a good percentage of that not into PvP.

heh, I had a blast, wasn't sure about my wing as a crippled/cloaked cohort on this mission. The hardest part was splitting up the pack and keeping them seperated while we each took one apart. There's not too many A.I. missions over the years that I'll remember but this is one of them. Dyna servers IMHO have gone out of their way to push PVP by making A.I. missions easy which explains alot of my bad habits as I have always preferred running the map instead of PVP. Now that Pesty has stepped up the A.I. in these missions I'm more inclined to take my chances in a PVP vs a single or tandem ships instead of an A.I. mission where I could draw 5 dreads. Keep it up Pesty, these new hardcore scripts rock (most of them). Gone are the days of killing an F-CAR with a F5 on the hardcore server.

For the record, I voted map.

[Corbomite]

I'm sorry, I can't vote. You didn't give a "Playing for Fun" option.

[KBF-Crim]

I'm sorry, I can't vote. You didn't give a "Playing for Fun" option.

There's no F in SFC mister!....er....wait..