Topic: Hardcore Server NEW SCRIPTS testing

[Dizzy]

Pesty please don't forget about Carrier upgrades as well. I want to worry when I see an AI Carrier because I won't know what it has until it launches.

This depends entirely on if ED can regulate the type of ships that appear... Some missions we see nothing but 3 carrrier eney AI. Thats BS...  So we will see how carriers can be regulated.

There should be unwinable missions occasionally.

Every mission needs be winnable and furthermore the harder the difficulty the mission the more it should pay out.

[NuclearWessels]

To do a lump-sum follow up on some of the suggestions - there isn't a helluva lot we can do script-side to control the behaviour of the AI.  The scripts don't have anything that can influence when a ship fires, when/how it uses tractor beams, when it launches fighters or what orders it gives them, etc. etc. etc.

I think I've mostly got the 1-in-3 AI gets fast drones.  There are intermitent cases where it turns out to be 2-in-4 or 2-in-5, but they're the exception rather than the norm.  I've been doing most of my testing as a Lyran in late against the Mirak, in everything from frigs to dreads, and it seems to be holding together.

AI loadouts for spare parts, marines, shuttles, and tbombs now vary between 25% and 75% of max, rather than a fixed 50%.

I haven't got carriers selecting variable fighter types yet (still need to put together something to parse the ftrlist before I get that working) but you might notice the odd enemy AI that is a few fighters short of its normal load.  You might also see the odd AI entering a mission with leftover damage, or with a rookie officer or two.

Difficulty levels for the ED missions are meant to have every mission winnable.  For the XC scripts they're notably tougher, but the majority should still be winnable if you're willing to fight the long fight.  It's Pesty's call there, and frankly (just my 2 cents) I don't see anything wrong with the Hardcore server (or Strayys, or any others with the inkling) choosing to run a much tougher flavour than the main campaign servers.

AI wingmen should be a little more common now, an AI mutiny a little less common.

Gotta get back to work on the planet/base/shipyard assaults for Pesty --- those oughta be ... fun ... 

Updated packs are at the same ol locations:
ED ones
XC ones

dave

PS - marstone, I keep forgetting to fix the message about the AI mutiny after he's dead ... hopefully I'll get that one shortly!

PPS - hopefully I've also caught the case where not all mission wins change the DV, holler if it's still broken!

[Dizzy]

just for the chuckles I dug up the line that bothered me.

 "I don;t doubt they are willing to waste their time either with little informed inexperienced player ideas..."

part of the debate on drones and such (debate, yeah lol).

Thus even tho I have been playing SFB solid for about 15 years (been out for many years now), and was heavy in SFC until SFCIII came out, I still fall under the inexperienced player area since I have only just gotten back into it in the past year or so.  I agree with the person this was aimed at, thus many of us are lumped under this statement.

Don't get me wrong, I am not upset or holding a grudge or such.  But some of the higharchy of the D2 really don't want debate, they want people to agree with them (or so it seems).  I will say, I am getting alittle tired of seeing posts telling people who are just trying to put out a point of view that they just don't know anough about it. (many have been at me, and at others I think seem to have a good grasp of the game). 

Know what Marstone, I sound like a f*cking asshole, dont I? Just reread it all myself and my diplomacy skills suck. But how am I supposed to handle it, dude? I've TRIED these suggestions on servers before and THEY DONT WORK. You are wrong in that you are not just putting out a point of view or suggestions, you guys are ARGUING for AI Fast drones... like you KNOW it works. And that's BS. Its been tried, it's been tested and it sure as hell doesnt work. So how do you want me to respond? Put up a server to make 4 or 5 guys happy at the expense of everone else who wont play it because it breaks the game? I cant do that, man. I have a higher responsibility to put out a server that's fair and playable for everyone, bro.

And honestly, I'm sorry I've offended you, but dude, yours is not the 1st idea to be hatched that's a bad one that just won't fly, man... There are tons of ideas coming at us admins that we weigh... and sometimes good stuff makes it into the server... but what you gotta do is trust that Me and DH these other admins and scripters have been doing this for years and take our advice when we say it wont work. Lighten up, man... I'm on your side. I want a good populated server just like you do, but I cant repeat all the unworable ideas that are being floated again and again.  Ive been doing servers since EAW came out bro. Have some faith in your admins. We do this for you guys and dont get paid for it.

[Pestalence_XC]

To do a lump-sum follow up on some of the suggestions - there isn't a helluva lot we can do script-side to control the behaviour of the AI. The scripts don't have anything that can influence when a ship fires, when/how it uses tractor beams, when it launches fighters or what orders it gives them, etc. etc. etc.

I think I've mostly got the 1-in-3 AI gets fast drones. There are intermitent cases where it turns out to be 2-in-4 or 2-in-5, but they're the exception rather than the norm. I've been doing most of my testing as a Lyran in late against the Mirak, in everything from frigs to dreads, and it seems to be holding together.

AI loadouts for spare parts, marines, shuttles, and tbombs now vary between 25% and 75% of max, rather than a fixed 50%.

I haven't got carriers selecting variable fighter types yet (still need to put together something to parse the ftrlist before I get that working) but you might notice the odd enemy AI that is a few fighters short of its normal load. You might also see the odd AI entering a mission with leftover damage, or with a rookie officer or two.

Difficulty levels for the ED missions are meant to have every mission winnable. For the XC scripts they're notably tougher, but the majority should still be winnable if you're willing to fight the long fight. It's Pesty's call there, and frankly (just my 2 cents) I don't see anything wrong with the Hardcore server (or Strayys, or any others with the inkling) choosing to run a much tougher flavour than the main campaign servers.

AI wingmen should be a little more common now, an AI mutiny a little less common.

Gotta get back to work on the planet/base/shipyard assaults for Pesty --- those oughta be ... fun ...

Updated packs are at the same ol locations:
ED ones
XC ones

dave

PS - marstone, I keep forgetting to fix the message about the AI mutiny after he's dead ... hopefully I'll get that one shortly!

PPS - hopefully I've also caught the case where not all mission wins change the DV, holler if it's still broken!

You Rock Dave..

If you are ever near San Antonio, TX.. drop me a PM and we'll meet up.. I'll get you a bottle of your favorite Scotch !!!

[Corbomite]

Been running missions all afternoon on the server. I wouldn't get AI help in anything bigger than a Destroyer and I only pulled one non "There's a hostile enemy heading toward us fast!" mission when there was a Black Marketeer that I was supposed to board. It flew at speed 17 the whole time, ignoring me as I pummeled it. Just before it was dead and I was going to board it, they "decided" to fight. Since they had nothing left it was useless. I find it odd that I wasn't getting more of a variety. I tried two races and several ship classes.

Can the AI be programmed to attack earlier? Also, can the arrow be removed after sensor lock at range 100 has been achieved in those scenarios where we have to search for awhile?

[Pestalence_XC]

Now that we have updated scripts, again.. the installer is updated..

To uninstall the old installer.. go into your OP directory and find the HC_Uninstall.exe and run it.. and then you can DL and run the new installer..

http://warpcore.110mb.com/Downloads/Hardcore_Installer.zip



Alternatively, you can just install the new scripts over the top of the old ones..

http://warpcore.110mb.com/Downloads/HC_Scripts.zip


Server has been updated with the scripts already.

[Dizzy]

Been running missions all afternoon on the server. I wouldn't get AI help in anything bigger than a Destroyer and I only pulled one non "There's a hostile enemy heading toward us fast!" mission when there was a Black Marketeer that I was supposed to board. It flew at speed 17 the whole time, ignoring me as I pummeled it. Just before it was dead and I was going to board it, they "decided" to fight. Since they had nothing left it was useless. I find it odd that I wasn't getting more of a variety. I tried two races and several ship classes.

Can the AI be programmed to attack earlier? Also, can the arrow be removed after sensor lock at range 100 has been achieved in those scenarios where we have to search for awhile?

What about instead of spawning ships at the start, they are generated/spawned when the host or Player character gets within 100k?

[NuclearWessels]

Been running missions all afternoon on the server. I wouldn't get AI help in anything bigger than a Destroyer and I only pulled one non "There's a hostile enemy heading toward us fast!" mission when there was a Black Marketeer that I was supposed to board. It flew at speed 17 the whole time, ignoring me as I pummeled it. Just before it was dead and I was going to board it, they "decided" to fight. Since they had nothing left it was useless. I find it odd that I wasn't getting more of a variety. I tried two races and several ship classes.

Can the AI be programmed to attack earlier? Also, can the arrow be removed after sensor lock at range 100 has been achieved in those scenarios where we have to search for awhile?

With the new release tonight the allied AI should be a little larger/more useful.

Good point about the range 100/arrows - I'll look at that tomorrow.  I'll also tweak the behaviour a bit -- wasn't too focused on that while there were other more pressing issues.

thanks,
dave

[NuclearWessels]

What about instead of spawning ships at the start, they are generated/spawned when the host or Player character gets within 100k?

Spawning after the start of the mission creates a whole slew of extra complications and special cases I'd rather avoid if we can.  I've got enough gray hair 

dave

[marstone]

Know what Marstone, I sound like a f*cking asshole, dont I? Just reread it all myself and my diplomacy skills suck. But how am I supposed to handle it, dude? I've TRIED these suggestions on servers before and THEY DONT WORK. You are wrong in that you are not just putting out a point of view or suggestions, you guys are ARGUING for AI Fast drones... like you KNOW it works. And that's BS. Its been tried, it's been tested and it sure as hell doesnt work. So how do you want me to respond? Put up a server to make 4 or 5 guys happy at the expense of everone else who wont play it because it breaks the game? I cant do that, man. I have a higher responsibility to put out a server that's fair and playable for everyone, bro.

And honestly, I'm sorry I've offended you, but dude, yours is not the 1st idea to be hatched that's a bad one that just won't fly, man... There are tons of ideas coming at us admins that we weigh... and sometimes good stuff makes it into the server... but what you gotta do is trust that Me and DH these other admins and scripters have been doing this for years and take our advice when we say it wont work. Lighten up, man... I'm on your side. I want a good populated server just like you do, but I cant repeat all the unworable ideas that are being floated again and again.  Ive been doing servers since EAW came out bro. Have some faith in your admins. We do this for you guys and dont get paid for it.

I have faith in the admin, I know the game will turn out better and better as time goes on.  The main point I had on the fast drones was, heck when you fly a destroyer against 3 dreads, a destroyer, and a frigate in a mission, it really didn't matter if they had fast or slow drones.  You have to run.  That was what we were running up against in that server.  

I think most of us all need to work on diplomacy skills.  Bad part is no matter how good the persuasion may be some will not agree with you or anyone.  Best to let some slide, let the discussion continue and do what is needed anyway.  

I think most of the disagreement came from what server we were talking about not in general.  I may not fully agree with you on this (partly tho) and the need for ships to not be baseline on supplies and loadout is needed as it is sad to come across a drone cruiser AI with slow drones.  Or a carrier with the lowest level of fighters.

It is nice that the short comings are being fixed, and kept in balance.  Keep up the good work, I will keep up disagreeing with you, just not as many times now.

[marstone]

Dave is there anyway to get your wingman to have orders to defend you or something like that so they quit flying away to get killed on the other half of the board.  If not, or well, would just be nice to have a wing when you get to go after the base or such.

[Dizzy]

Karnak used to put your allies under your fleet control panel. I'd like to see a small percentage of missions by Dave done this way. I think that was a neat deal.

[Corbomite]

Only on Assault missions, otherwise it becomes a chore.

[Corbomite]

Dave you magnificent bastard!

Flying a R-SKL, I finally get two AI helpers (R-SKE x2) and think "Oh, finally an easier one" when I am informed that it's an ambush and I find myself face to face with a F-CVA+, F-BCV, F-DER and a L-DWVm(?). Just as I killed the F-DER another F-BCV showed up. The SKE's didn't last long and it is a good thing the SKL can go 30 cloaked or I would have been toast. Occasional "Oh crap!" missions are interesting and if Dizzy tells you different tell him to blow. 

There are two problems with the mission though (forgot to check if it was XC or ED, sorry): The F-BCV doesn't come out until 2283. The server year is 2274. The Lyrans are allied to the Roms on the server and they were pulled as an enemy. This might be because it was a Carrier and may be in the Fed part of DH's Frankenstein shiplist.


Some other issues:

Running off or losing in neutral hexes still causes a drop in DV. Not sure the script is at fault as the server is taking the report with no "neutral" party to get credit so it assigns it as a win against the hex to the other side. I hear someone somewhere has the server source and might be able to do something about that .

There are still times when the DV does not shift after a mission. They are infrequent. It seem to happen in neutral hexes only from what I have observed so far and doesn't seem to have a pattern although the two I saw this morning happened in the normal "Hostile" scenario.

I still get predominantly "Hostile" scenarios, although the AI help is more frequent. I'd say one in seven to ten is an "Arrow" scenario. Don't know what percentage you are going for so I'm just reporting the numbers.

ED Enemy Patrol: "Hostile", Asteroids; Pulled an SSL (Large Space Shell monster). The monster fired and turned, but never moved. It was like it had no engines.

ED Player Patrol: "Arrow", Asteroids; Pulled a F-DD+. The ship appeared 84 away (although I couldn't target it until the script played out). The message was that it was a naval warship and they said they had permission to be in the area. I proceeded to close. They fired at range 25. I then got a message at range 15 that they were jamming our comms and attacking (no duh! ). I assume the timer on the messages got run over by the fact that the ship appeared so close to me and things got out of sequence.


I had one occurrence of my ally going rogue. I don't remember seeing any message about it, just the Mauler smacking me upside the head (you evil bastard ). I was able to pull that one out against three heavy cruisers, again thanks to the SKL's ability to move fast and cloak. I even took the mauler back.


Cool missions. Keep 'em coming!

[Corbomite]

Ran two ED Player Combats in a hex I owned (Romulan) and got no DV shifts. Each time I was fighting Neutral Pirates and I killed two and captured one.

[Lear]

REPORT from the Front.
Shifts are working( except over a planet and i beamed in before Corb).
Lots of fluactions in the news screen you will see most nat's listed more than once.
Drones some times (when they hit planets are some time doing no damage
(Met_ED Enemy Combat over a planet) also "Friendlies did not move or fire"
some times the Throttle sticks will not let me slow down the ship.

[Dizzy]

We will have to step the econ a little so everyone has a different rating. I think that fixes news spam.

[NuclearWessels]

Dave you magnificent bastard!

Flying a R-SKL, I finally get two AI helpers (R-SKE x2) and think "Oh, finally an easier one" when I am informed that it's an ambush and I find myself face to face with a F-CVA+, F-BCV, F-DER and a L-DWVm(?). Just as I killed the F-DER another F-BCV showed up. The SKE's didn't last long and it is a good thing the SKL can go 30 cloaked or I would have been toast. Occasional "Oh crap!" missions are interesting and if Dizzy tells you different tell him to blow. 

There are two problems with the mission though (forgot to check if it was XC or ED, sorry): The F-BCV doesn't come out until 2283. The server year is 2274. The Lyrans are allied to the Roms on the server and they were pulled as an enemy. This might be because it was a Carrier and may be in the Fed part of DH's Frankenstein shiplist.


Some other issues:

Running off or losing in neutral hexes still causes a drop in DV. Not sure the script is at fault as the server is taking the report with no "neutral" party to get credit so it assigns it as a win against the hex to the other side. I hear someone somewhere has the server source and might be able to do something about that .

There are still times when the DV does not shift after a mission. They are infrequent. It seem to happen in neutral hexes only from what I have observed so far and doesn't seem to have a pattern although the two I saw this morning happened in the normal "Hostile" scenario.

I still get predominantly "Hostile" scenarios, although the AI help is more frequent. I'd say one in seven to ten is an "Arrow" scenario. Don't know what percentage you are going for so I'm just reporting the numbers.

ED Enemy Patrol: "Hostile", Asteroids; Pulled an SSL (Large Space Shell monster). The monster fired and turned, but never moved. It was like it had no engines.

ED Player Patrol: "Arrow", Asteroids; Pulled a F-DD+. The ship appeared 84 away (although I couldn't target it until the script played out). The message was that it was a naval warship and they said they had permission to be in the area. I proceeded to close. They fired at range 25. I then got a message at range 15 that they were jamming our comms and attacking (no duh! ). I assume the timer on the messages got run over by the fact that the ship appeared so close to me and things got out of sequence.


I had one occurrence of my ally going rogue. I don't remember seeing any message about it, just the Mauler smacking me upside the head (you evil bastard ). I was able to pull that one out against three heavy cruisers, again thanks to the SKL's ability to move fast and cloak. I even took the mauler back.


Cool missions. Keep 'em coming!

Doh!  When it parses the shiplist I completely forgot to seperate out the donor-list style of entry.  Will get that corrected ASAP.

Good points on all the rest as well - thx!
dave

[Corbomite]

ED Enemy Combat: Planet; My AI help wasn't allied to me and didn't move until I attacked it. This is possibly due to the fact I targeted it before the teams were established by the script. The planet had only 7 Marines on it making it very easy to capture. I ran another right after that one where the planet had only 3 Marines on it.

[KBF-Crim]

I want the AI to smack people around, I want people to run from them, however I also want the missions at least somewhat winable if you use strategy and tactics as well as maybe even getting a wing to help ya out..

I don't want a situation of going against an unbeatable AI.. that ruins the balance..

Not only that...it makes fighting AI missions pointless...which would make (under this new push for PvP) being on the server with no live enemies rather pointless as well....so people will do alot of checking to see if anyone is on...rather than staying busy running missions until someone gets on...(servers with more  long term players...say an hour+...tend to gather more casual players ,an hour -, than servers with only a few on at a time...even under the old system)

I also don't want people running 5 min missions.. I am aiming for missions running 15 to 30 min average.. sometimes longer depending on the odds..

You'll simply lose players...

I want planet and assaults to seem like breaking into Fort Knox with a pellet gun and you have to use your wits and skills to beat the scenario.

IIRC Base assults on AOTK(latest) were around 45 minutes with heavy iron....not a feat for the casual...

I want the missions to drive people to go for PVP...

Thus pushing another small segment away...you cant punish people into playing PvP....sure some stuff is way too easy to do...but that wont change for the aces and heavy metal flyers...you only going to raise the AI bar high enough to lose a few more players...

Currently the AI is a milk run.. OK some one just moved into the hex above me.. I don't want PVP, I want to take this hex on the map.. I can do that in 30 min with my 1:20 mission times...

And the counter for this is to sit rock in the hex and get drafted or threaten someone off by your presense..and there isnt allways a live enemy to play against anyways....turn AI missions into 30 minute chores and you'll lose quite a few people...

OOPS now the AI are monsters.. and killing the Ai may take anywhere from 10 min to 2 hours.. so now I want the PVP to get a break from the AI..

And there are people who might not want PvP...of have the time for an hour plus engagment....

However I don't want the AI so powerful that you can not win...

cool...because it would kill the game for many people...

Marstone.. keep posting suggestions.. I am attempting to go through them all ... Right now I am testing some scripts on the Hardcore server.. If you have been on there, you will notice that the ED scripts are much easier than the HC scripts.. just wait until I turn the AI back up.. the ED scripts will be almost as hard as the XC scripts..

Wait until you get the Base Assault XC scripts, or the ship yard script or the Planet Assault script, or the new planet model by I, Mudd, or the Home World Assault scripts.. plus other idea scenario scripts that I have plans for..

Hardcore is going to be Hardcore..

Thats' all well and good...but I will honeslty say....just testing these missions has turned me off ,and I doubt I'd make any serious attempt to play a hardcore server....The investment of time to pleasure ratio has gone way down...

the ED scripts will be for standard servers.. the XC scripts are being made for a custom campaign but will be a permanent part of the hardcore Fun Server.. Other servers may take advantage of some of the scripts as well in the future..

ED allready had a bunch of "stomp you into the ground" missions...we tried them out...they were deemed way too tough and too much of a chore to play through endlessly....People hung it up and stayed off...

It all depends on what we are doing now.. we are actually working to improve the Dynaverse.. much like DIP was suppose to do.. we are actually doing it here and now.

Some..including myself...do not see a simple ramp up of difficulty, hassle,and frustration to be an improvement...

It's unfortunate that combat ratings never got implemented...this rating was supposed to be read by the script and adjust difficulty higher for those with higher scores...thus the topguns would draw stiffer AI opposition than newbs

Another DV feature that never got implemented was a difficulty modifier based on a races population...A BPV adjustment accross the races shiplist IIRC...


D2 PvP has evolved from what it once was for me...AI stripping has turned fights that might be fought to a kick in the shins and a taco bell...or a plain old taco bell...( I will at least kick you in the shins before I run for dear life)....I now spend around 95% of PvP running away....At least when I used to get tossed an AI wingman I had a chance once and a while...

And as I said...I often dont have time to play a PvP when I'm on...So I play a few AI missions....go AFK..take care of something(which allways goes on as long as the kids or wife is up)...come back and bang a few more missions....

Take away short(ish) AI missions....and you've taken away just about any incentive I have to log in between work and bed unless I have uninterupted time for PvP or 15+ minute missions....(free time these days is about non-existant)...

I know I'm just one player....but every server now we lose just another player...

By the time you guys build the perfect server...you guys will be the only ones playing it...

Just my two cents....but someone had to say it...