Topic: Pseudo turn-based ISC conquest campaign?

[FPF-Paladin]

Well, I'm for it... open to any different structure campaigns really, but where this is targeted... hey it sounds fun and relaxing to throw ships at ISC invaders and try to stem the tide.  That whole scoring system would make it way less stressful (ISC, territory vcs, Others PvP) so even if we are  being cut down regularly, there's no huge stigma of having given away VPs or guilt involved... just rearm, take off again...

Anyhow I know it's in concept stage but I'm for trying it.

[Lieutenant_Q]

My two cents on PvP VCs.

Any ISC ships killed by GW ships of equal or lesser class, worth points.  (Could even convince me on the merits of going one step higher, like a GW BC killing a ISC CA, or a DD killing a FF)
No GW ships killed by ISC are worth points EXCEPT: DNs, BCHs, and X-Ships.  These units represent a rather large commitment of resources and the loss of even one would hurt the GW powers.

[Wraith 413]

 DH and Slider,

 Are you two going to be on GSA/TS tonight ?
 If so , set a time and I'll try to be there.

[FPF-DieHard]

DH and Slider,

 Are you two going to be on GSA/TS tonight ?
 If so , set a time and I'll try to be there.

Yes, I'll be there around 9 PM EDT.   We can talk about how to do this while we're killing each other.

[Wraith 413]

 Cool, that time should be perfect for me.

[FPF-DieHard]

Newest off the wall idea so you can tell me I suck . . .

First premise, in ISC Invasion, the Disengagement rule will be applied to the SHIP, not the pilot.  We will have as full of an OOB as possible.  Get kicked out in a Sparrowhawk, come back in a Firehawk.  Get killed in a G-CM, have your race leader assign you another one and you can got back into the hex.  The Attrition will be of an empires shipyards, not it’s space.

In a 3v3 situation it is quite possible, even with meticulously crafted fleeting rules, to have a situation where 3 good pilots can put together a fleet that just can’t be beaten (I-BBZ, I-CATZ, I-CATZ fits that category).  In traditional D2 you could fight around this, attack where they aren’t.   But in this style of a server you don’t really have that option, engaging the enemy is the only way to win.

So what can you do in this situation?   How do you win the un-winnable scenario? Do what Kirk did, cheat!

Well, Kirk didn’t really cheat in the Kobiashi Maru, he just reprogrammed the simulation so that victory is possible.  That’s what we have to do, “re-program” the nature of D2 so that a 3-ship Uber-fleet is beatable in a war of attrition.   How do you do that?  It’s easy; remove one of the least realistic parts of D2:  instant repair!

Insta-repair quite frankly is really silly.  When ships in the Trek/SFB universe get F’d up it takes months to fix, not just pressing a button.  Repair will no longer be available at starbases, since this isn’t possible it will be stopped by setting the prices for repair as prohibitively high.   This will be a turn-based campaign and real-repairs of a ship will require taking it off the frontline and it will need to spend some time in dry-dock and it will cost something in production points (to be determined . . .). 

At bases you will still be able to buy drones, shuttles, fighters (making carries worth their weight in gold, PFs will be handled differently), marines, mines, and spare parts to repair yourself in combat, but it won’t be the same.  Your “7th shield” won’t come back.   Hull, Excess Damage, Labs, Control Stations, ain’t reparable via the engineering panel.  Even if you have all of your weapons and power systems working a ship held together with chewing-gum and duct tape is going to start falling apart quickly once it starts taking damage.  CA ships and bigger are going to be rare so once they start taking serious damage from a few fights it will behoove an admiral to take that ship off the line.

So how does this balance out the 3-ship ubber-fleet?  CLs are going to be plentiful, these will make up of the ships in a fleet.  Suicide runs add up!  If you loose five D5 hulls to get a CCZ taken off the line it’s worth it!  Fighters, PFs, attrition units will be able to do the same.  I also think the first fleets to attack hexes will be CL/CW fleets as it just makes sense to start an invasion of a hex with the war cruisers.  Why risk damaging an expensive ship on the AI?

Questions?  Comment?  Demands that I take my meds?   

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Um... need to get a computer that can run SFC:OP again... this is basicly what I have been looking for since I left STOC....

[KBFLordKrueg]

Insta-repair quite frankly is really silly.  When ships in the Trek/SFB universe get F’d up it takes months to fix, not just pressing a button.  Repair will no longer be available at starbases, since this isn’t possible it will be stopped by setting the prices for repair as prohibitively high.   This will be a turn-based campaign and real-repairs of a ship will require taking it off the frontline and it will need to spend some time in dry-dock and it will cost something in production points (to be determined . . .). 

At bases you will still be able to buy drones, shuttles, fighters (making carries worth their weight in gold, PFs will be handled differently), marines, mines, and spare parts to repair yourself in combat, but it won’t be the same.  Your “7th shield” won’t come back.   Hull, Excess Damage, Labs, Control Stations, ain’t reparable via the engineering panel.  Even if you have all of your weapons and power systems working a ship held together with chewing-gum and duct tape is going to start falling apart quickly once it starts taking damage.  CA ships and bigger are going to be rare so once they start taking serious damage from a few fights it will behoove an admiral to take that ship off the line.

So how does this balance out the 3-ship ubber-fleet?  CLs are going to be plentiful, these will make up of the ships in a fleet.  Suicide runs add up!  If you loose five D5 hulls to get a CCZ taken off the line it’s worth it!  Fighters, PFs, attrition units will be able to do the same.  I also think the first fleets to attack hexes will be CL/CW fleets as it just makes sense to start an invasion of a hex with the war cruisers.  Why risk damaging an expensive ship on the AI?

Questions?  Comment?  Demands that I take my meds?   

You might be onto something there...
Having a 50% damaged ship repair itself in seconds is most unrealistic.
And as long as you have plenty of smaller units to throw at them without worry of losing VC points, it just might work.
Obviously, more exact details on how this work will ned to be hammered out, but...
ya might have something...

[deadmansix]

 LOVE the Idea DH sounds like a hell of a lot of fun even for a one handed Hydran

 but I do have one request make the cost of Carriers reasonable would ya last few severs they were shall I say way over the top cost wise IMO

[FPF-DieHard]

 LOVE the Idea DH sounds like a hell of a lot of fun even for a one handed Hydran

 but I do have one request make the cost of Carriers reasonable would ya last few severs they were shall I say way over the top cost wise IMO

PP will not be used for purchasing ships, they will be built with "Empire money," I'll use the F&E term EP from now on for this.   Ship costs will be based off of the F&E costs, "Carriers" will be expensive but worth it (I'll explain in a bit). 

By CARRIERS I mean true carriers, not the casual carriers. So even the Hydran Ranger and Mohawk will not be considered Carriers.  The actually fighter compliments for CARRIERS and their fleeting rules are up for discussion (see a soon to be posted dissertation that I started at work today).

Here's why carriers will be expensive in terms of EP:  Replacement fighters will be free!  This is the F&E model, Carriers are nearly impossible to kill as the fighters abosorb damage first.  It kind of works like that in SFC, a CVD pilot sends in the fighters, the fighters die (or kill the oppoenent) and the carrier withdraws.  Since ships will NOT BE ABLE TO REPAIR in spacedock, free replacement fighters is a HUGE advantage, worth the cost.

Tentatively I'm thinking Carriers will have to have an Escort of the same race and a Line ships of any race in a fleet.  I expect the combat to be quick and brutal.  Send in the fighters and the escorts, yell BONZAI!!! and hope you can overwhelm your opponent.  The carrier escorts will be disposable and as per F&E, only will cost slightly more than a Normal cruiser.  The carrier should hide behind the Escorts and be prepare to hike up it's skirt if things go badly, but it will be able to return to that hex later or return with a full compliment of fighters in another hex (and hopefully with a new escort).

Show up and Dnet TS tonight if you need me to elaborate.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

It’s easy; remove one of the least realistic parts of D2:  instant repair!

At bases you will still be able to buy drones, shuttles, fighters (making carries worth their weight in gold, PFs will be handled differently), marines, mines, and spare parts to repair yourself in combat, but it won’t be the same.  Your “7th shield” won’t come back.   Hull, Excess Damage, Labs, Control Stations, ain’t reparable via the engineering panel.  Even if you have all of your weapons and power systems working a ship held together with chewing-gum and duct tape is going to start falling apart quickly once it starts taking damage.  CA ships and bigger are going to be rare so once they start taking serious damage from a few fights it will behoove an admiral to take that ship off the line.

So how does this balance out the 3-ship ubber-fleet?  CLs are going to be plentiful, these will make up of the ships in a fleet.  Suicide runs add up!  If you loose five D5 hulls to get a CCZ taken off the line it’s worth it!  Fighters, PFs, attrition units will be able to do the same.  I also think the first fleets to attack hexes will be CL/CW fleets as it just makes sense to start an invasion of a hex with the war cruisers.  Why risk damaging an expensive ship on the AI?

Questions?  Comment?  Demands that I take my meds?   

Damnit, that just might work!  Good thoughts there, DH.

-S'Cipio

[Lepton]

Insta-repair quite frankly is really silly.  When ships in the Trek/SFB universe get F’d up it takes months to fix, not just pressing a button.  Repair will no longer be available at starbases, since this isn’t possible it will be stopped by setting the prices for repair as prohibitively high.   This will be a turn-based campaign and real-repairs of a ship will require taking it off the frontline and it will need to spend some time in dry-dock and it will cost something in production points (to be determined . . .). 

We might need to be careful about the relative cost of ship production and ship repairs.  I might not be thinking clearly but if your ability to produce ships through EP outstrips your ability to repair ships through EP might not the RM just scrap ships instead of repairing them, or treat ships in general as attrition units?

So since it is turn-based I assume that ship repairs will take a turn to complete, yes?

[FPF-DieHard]

We might need to be careful about the relative cost of ship production and ship repairs.  I might not be thinking clearly but if your ability to produce ships through EP outstrips your ability to repair ships through EP might not the RM just scrap ships instead of repairing them, or treat ships in general as attrition units?

I'm thinking a flat-rate or 1/2 it's production cost rounded down.  Maybe less, will have to crunch the numbers.

So since it is turn-based I assume that ship repairs will take a turn to complete, yes?

Yes, so if  Gorn DNH is damaged badly in round 1, it gets repaired in round 2, it's back ready for action in round 3.

[Lepton]

The question is, do you want to make a server appealing to a very small group, or do you want to make a server for the entire community to try and keep interest in this game alive...?

If the majority of the the community wants to flip hexes, I honestly don't care anymore.   If I can get 3 players on each side for this, it's a go.

I'd rather poke my eye out with a rusty screw-driver than run/play on another hex-flipping server.  Having to fly 8-14 hours a day flipping hexes so my side doesn't get wiped off the map is a collasal waist of time and I will never do it again. 

Hey, I was so busy being an a-hole that I did not see this.  No more hex-flipping for you??  OH, HAPPY DAY!!  HAPPY DAY!!  I hate to say it but I am pretty much done with hex-munching servers as well.  And, yes, as far as I am concerned if we can get 6 folks to show up at one time that will be enough for me.  I'd rather play 3 good PvP matches in 3 hours than 18 ten minute AI missions.  Let's make it happen.

[Corbomite]

First premise, in ISC Invasion, the Disengagement rule will be applied to the SHIP, not the pilot.  We will have as full of an OOB as possible.  Get kicked out in a Sparrowhawk, come back in a Firehawk.

I fail to see the purpose of this if the ship was not damaged.

Get killed in a G-CM, have your race leader assign you another one and you can got back into the hex.  The Attrition will be of an empires shipyards, not it’s space.

Getting killed should definitely take you off the front for awhile as you have to be rescued, debriefed and reassigned.

Insta-repair quite frankly is really silly.  When ships in the Trek/SFB universe get F’d up it takes months to fix, not just pressing a button.  Repair will no longer be available at starbases, since this isn’t possible it will be stopped by setting the prices for repair as prohibitively high.   This will be a turn-based campaign and real-repairs of a ship will require taking it off the frontline and it will need to spend some time in dry-dock and it will cost something in production points (to be determined . . .). 

This sounds like an RM paperwork nightmare.

So how does this balance out the 3-ship ubber-fleet?  CLs are going to be plentiful, these will make up of the ships in a fleet.  Suicide runs add up!  If you loose five D5 hulls to get a CCZ taken off the line it’s worth it!  Fighters, PFs, attrition units will be able to do the same.  I also think the first fleets to attack hexes will be CL/CW fleets as it just makes sense to start an invasion of a hex with the war cruisers.  Why risk damaging an expensive ship on the AI?

I don't see how the ISC will have a chance in this type of environment if Carriers, PF Tenders and other specialty ships are not limited in deployment.

[FPF-DieHard]

I don't see how the ISC will have a chance in this type of environment if Carriers, PF Tenders and other specialty ships are not limited in deployment.

Specialty ships will be limited production, similar rules as F&E such as 1 mauler per production cycle, etc . . .  As far as fighter/PFs are concerned the ISC has them as well.   The ISC will also have a larger economy and probably a bigger starting pool of ships.  The GW races will have been economically ravaged by the War and just won't be able to produce as much. 

The devil is in the details which can be hammered out.   But I think the broad concept is solid.  We'll do a test round or two to work out the kinks.

[FPF-DieHard]

Insta-repair quite frankly is really silly.  When ships in the Trek/SFB universe get F’d up it takes months to fix, not just pressing a button.  Repair will no longer be available at starbases, since this isn’t possible it will be stopped by setting the prices for repair as prohibitively high.   This will be a turn-based campaign and real-repairs of a ship will require taking it off the frontline and it will need to spend some time in dry-dock and it will cost something in production points (to be determined . . .).

This sounds like an RM paperwork nightmare.

I don't think it will be that bad and since the server won't be up 24/7 the ships assignments can be done off-line.  People can setup Alt Accounts before hand so spare ships can be available on the fly.  Using the OCI and a Spreadsheet this should take about 10 minutes.  The RM/ARMs will be able to go into the OCI to assign different ships if new assignments are needed.

I talked to the Dnet big brains and though a fully-automated system is possible with SQL it will require time.   I'd rather not ask these guys to develop that as any spare time they have should be spent on SFC:4

[FPF-DieHard]

First premise, in ISC Invasion, the Disengagement rule will be applied to the SHIP, not the pilot.  We will have as full of an OOB as possible.  Get kicked out in a Sparrowhawk, come back in a Firehawk.

I fail to see the purpose of this if the ship was not damaged.

Get killed in a G-CM, have your race leader assign you another one and you can got back into the hex.  The Attrition will be of an empires shipyards, not it’s space.

Getting killed should definitely take you off the front for awhile as you have to be rescued, debriefed and reassigned.

This is all negotiable and the Disengagement rule may not ever be needed.  We're fighting over ships mainly, not territory.   Also if you kick everyone out of a hex, and with out low-player population it's very possible, you won't be able to get PvP.   The goal here is to get as much PvP as possible in a Strategic context, pretty hard for that to happen when you're opponents can't hit you back.

In F&E, to retreat you had to sacrifice some ships in a "screening" action.  Perhaps the only rule regarding this is in a 3v3, you cannot withdraw until one of your ships is dead? 

[Corbomite]

We're fighting over ships mainly, not territory.   

Really? I thought the whole purpose for the ISC on the server was to get territory. Now you say they are fighting over ships. So all the ISC has to do is conquer the shipyards of other races and they win?

[FPF-DieHard]

We're fighting over ships mainly, not territory.   

Really? I thought the whole purpose for the ISC on the server was to get territory. Now you say they are fighting over ships. So all the ISC has to do is conquer the shipyards of other races and they win?

Are you intentionally trying to be difficult?  That's Lepton's job 

Of course Territory will be involved, but since the ISC's territory cannot be attacked the way to stops it's War Machine is to kill it's ships attacking.  So yes, the ISC's goal will be conquest of space.   The GW Empire's goal will be to destroy enough ISC ships that they cannot do this.

Please don't try to trap me on semantics, this is basically a brain-dump of ideas and everything is written in chalk and honestly not that well thought out yet.