Topic: Power from... Tornados?!?  (Read 3375 times)

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Offline Tus-XC

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Power from... Tornados?!?
« on: June 27, 2008, 08:32:21 am »
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,372487,00.html

Coiled up in a tornado is as much energy as an entire power plant. So a Canadian engineer has a plan to spin up his own twister and extract energy from its tethered tail.

It all depends on heating the air near the surface so that it is much warmer than the air above.

"You can generate energy whenever you have a temperature gradient," said Louis Michaud. "The source of the energy here is the natural movement of warm and cold air currents."

These so-called convective air currents are only useful if they can be channeled in some way.

That is why Michaud proposes using a tornado as a kind of drinking straw between the warm ground below and the cold sky above. Wind turbines placed at the bottom could generate electricity from the sucked-up air.

Whirlwind tour

Tornadoes and hurricanes form when sun-heated air near the surface rises and displaces cooler air above. As outside air rushes in to replace the rising air, the whole mass begins to rotate.

Michaud got the notion of a man-made tornado — what he calls the Atmospheric Vortex Engine (AVE) — while working as an engineer on gas turbines.

"When I looked further into it, I didn't run into anything that was impossible," Michaud told LiveScience.

The AVE structure is a 200-meter-wide arena with 100-meter-high walls. Warm humid air enters at the sides, directed to flow in a circular fashion. As the air whirls around at speeds up to 200 mph, a vacuum forms in the center, which holds the vortex together as it extends several miles into the sky.

The concept is similar to a solar chimney with the swirling walls of the vortex replacing the brick walls of the tower. But the AVE can reach much higher into the sky where the air is colder.

With wind turbines at the inlets to the arena, Michaud calculates that as much as 200 megawatts of electricity (enough for a small city) could be extracted without draining the vortex of its power.

"Look at natural tornadoes that destroy a house or carry off a car and still have plenty of energy left over," he said.

Waste heat

Michaud imagines the AVE could get its warm air from the exhaust of a power plant.

"Most power plants reject more than half of the heat that they make," he said.

The AVE could generate energy from this waste heat because it connects the ground to the upper atmosphere where the temperature gets as low as negative 60 degrees Celsius (80 degrees below zero Fahrenheit). This cold reservoir draws the warm air up fast enough to turn turbines.

"All you have to do is send the heat up there," Michaud said, and the extra energy from the AVE could increase the output of a power plant by 40 percent.

Making the tornado dependent on a waste heat supply would also be a built-in safety feature. "If it came off the base, there would be nothing to sustain the vortex," Michaud said.

He said the vortex might produce a little extra precipitation in the surrounding area.

To build a 200 megawatt AVE facility would cost $60 million, Michaud estimates. This implies a cost per megawatt that is lower than all existing power generation technologies.

Michaud has tested many small prototypes and is currently working on a 4-meter wide AVE near his home in Ontario. The research comes mostly out his own pocket book, as he has not found an investor yet.

"Utility companies are risk-adverse," he said. "They prefer to buy from established vendors."

Copyright © 2008 Imaginova Corp. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Rob

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Offline Vipre

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2008, 09:08:12 am »
:thumbsup: Artificially creating a tornado to generate electricity.  :drool:
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Offline marstone

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2008, 09:28:29 am »
hmm, use alot of energy to heat the air and direct it to make a tornado, then use the wind from the tornado to run a generator.  Sounds like it should use more energy to keep it going that it would produce (perpetual motion still hasn't been perfected)
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2008, 09:37:23 am »
well the article says they would use the excess heat from another plant in order to run this one, ie it would be an add on system to other plants making them more effecient overall
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Offline marstone

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2008, 09:51:52 am »
well the article says they would use the excess heat from another plant in order to run this one, ie it would be an add on system to other plants making them more effecient overall

Now excess heat from a nuke plant maybe.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2008, 09:58:54 am »
Earlier Thread

We discussed something similar sometime ago.
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2008, 07:55:36 pm »
Perpetual motion is impossible, period. I learned this the hard way, I've created many devices so I can try to make perpetual motion a reality, but I finally learned that it was impossible to get it. Also, perhaps we could use a wind generator to produce enough energy to make that tornado machine a reality.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2008, 08:05:19 pm »
The reason that perpetual motion machines don't work is that there are always energy losses and they have no energy input.

 With this type of proposal there IS an energy input.  That is why they are not "perpetual motion machines" and why they can generate surplus power.  Whether this particular design concept can generate electricity at a cost low enough to be useful remains to be seen.
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2008, 11:30:51 am »
It'll proably be too exspensive to keep in operation.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2008, 11:57:59 am »
It'll proably be too exspensive to keep in operation.

Why?
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2008, 12:19:41 pm »
First of all, the power needed to keep the generator going would probably be hard to come by, also, what if the generator had a really special part that's hard and exspensive to replace, I say we should stick with nuclear power, for the time being.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2008, 02:04:31 pm »
First of all, the power needed to keep the generator going would probably be hard to come by,

Read the article it talks of using heat that would otherwise be waste from a powerplant.

also, what if the generator had a really special part that's hard and exspensive to replace, I say we should stick with nuclear power, for the time being.

What if? 

In other words you don't have a reason?

Wind turbines are a known and developed technology why should there "magically" be some "special part" that is "hard and exspensive to replace"?
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Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2008, 04:48:06 pm »
The only way to find out is to build one.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2008, 05:11:53 pm »
The only way to find out is to build one.

As I see it this uses:

wind turbine
heat exchangers
piping
pumps
and a specially shaped building

None of which looks like a show stopper or likely to be unusually expensive and as it uses waste heat it should increase the efficiency of the power plant it is attached to.  Other industries might even be able to use them to scavenge waste heat to reduce their power costs.  It might even be a way to harness some forms of geothermal heat (though that is a long shot).

Personally I would be more concerned in the effects on the local wind and weather patterns than on whether or not it had expensive components..
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2008, 07:53:59 pm »
I must have missed that part........oops. Oh well, I usually miss something anyway.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2008, 08:50:11 am »
I must have missed that part........oops. Oh well, I usually miss something anyway.

Its usually best to make sure that you understands what you are commenting about.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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Offline Spartan-039

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2008, 12:30:51 pm »
I've always missed a small detail, but I doubt it's going to be built anytime soon.
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Offline marstone

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2008, 01:38:47 am »
I must have missed that part........oops. Oh well, I usually miss something anyway.

Its usually best to make sure that you understands what you are commenting about.

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Offline Centurus

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Re: Power from... Tornados?!?
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2008, 04:42:12 am »
I must have missed that part........oops. Oh well, I usually miss something anyway.

Its usually best to make sure that you understands what you are commenting about.

OH that is no fun.

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