Topic: Oil from waste?

[Nemesis]

Link to full article

Inside LS9’s cluttered laboratory – funded by $20 million of start-up capital from investors including Vinod Khosla, the Indian-American entrepreneur who co-founded Sun Micro-systems – Mr Pal explains that LS9’s bugs are single-cell organisms, each a fraction of a billionth the size of an ant. They start out as industrial yeast or nonpathogenic strains of E. coli, but LS9 modifies them by custom-de-signing their DNA. “Five to seven years ago, that process would have taken months and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars,” he says. “Now it can take weeks and cost maybe $20,000.”

He means bugs. To be more precise: the genetic alteration of bugs – very, very small ones – so that when they feed on agricultural waste such as woodchips or wheat straw, they do something extraordinary. They excrete crude oil.

Unbelievably, this is not science fiction. Mr Pal holds up a small beaker of bug excretion that could, theoretically, be poured into the tank of the giant Lexus SUV next to us. Not that Mr Pal is willing to risk it just yet. He gives it a month before the first vehicle is filled up on what he calls “renewable petroleum”. After that, he grins, “it’s a brave new world”.

“Our plan is to have a demonstration-scale plant operational by 2010 and, in parallel, we’ll be working on the design and construction of a commercial-scale facility to open in 2011,” says Mr Pal, adding that if LS9 used Brazilian sugar cane as its feedstock, its fuel would probably cost about $50 a barrel.

If it can be done, even just supplementing exising supplies it would be useful.

[Dracho]

Look at it from another angle... the landfill side..

Anything that turns waste into something.. useful.. instead of something toxic buried under a neighborhood...

Bonus!

[Nemesis]

Look at it from another angle... the landfill side..

Add the chance that it could be made in small (or very small) local plants and farmers or co-ops could generate another income from their waste.  Remote areas with poor shipping could generate their own fuel, allowing easier modernization.

Could something similar work on human waste to convert sewage plants into a source of income?  Partially recover operating cost even if doesn't generate a profit from the sewage plant as a whole.

[Dracho]

Look at it from another angle... the landfill side..

Add the chance that it could be made in small (or very small) local plants and farmers or co-ops could generate another income from their waste.  Remote areas with poor shipping could generate their own fuel, allowing easier modernization.

Could something similar work on human waste to convert sewage plants into a source of income?  Partially recover operating cost even if doesn't generate a profit from the sewage plant as a whole.

Anything carbon based.  Do a Google on molecular depolymerization.  There are already 2 test plants online.

http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Anything-Into-Oil1may03.htm


Disclaimer:  I take no responsibility nor do I endorse the jacka$$ comments on the site that state we should stive to live in mud huts, but it's a good process overview.

[Nemesis]

Thanks for the link.  I will have to read it in detail later, specifically for the heat source.   

The quick look I did make worked with what I posted:

Unlike other solid-to-liquid-fuel processes such as cornstarch into ethanol, this one will accept almost any carbon-based feedstock. If a 175-pound man fell into one end , he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water. While no one plans to put people into a thermal depolymerization machine, an intimate human creation could become a prime feedstock. "There is no reason why we can't turn sewage, including human excrement, into a glorious oil," says engineer Terry Adams, a project consultant. So the city of Philadelphia is in discussion with Changing World Technologies to begin doing exactly that.

"The potential is unbelievable," says Michael Roberts, a senior chemical engineer for the Gas Technology Institute, an energy research group. "You're not only clean ing up waste; you're talking about distributed generation of oil all over the world."

I wonder if its funded by the Mafia.  A better way to dispose of people than cement overshoes or dog food. 

[Vipre]

I don't follow why they're planning to sell the Oil at $15 a barrel, it seems asinine. If they sell them at market price of at least $130 they can recoup the entire constrution cost of the plant in one year. Drop the price after that.

[Nemesis]

I don't follow why they're planning to sell the Oil at $15 a barrel, it seems asinine. If they sell them at market price of at least $130 they can recoup the entire constrution cost of the plant in one year. Drop the price after that.

From the Article:

"This is our first-out plant, and we estimate we'll make oil at $15 a barrel. In three to five years, we'll drop that to $10, the same as a medium-size oil exploration and production company. And it will get cheaper from there."

I think that the keyword is MAKE.  If I am interpretting it right they are saying it will cost them $15 a barrel dropping to $10 as they refine the process and pay off the debts incurred in making it.  Likely they will sell at the market price which should drop as they build capacity. 

[Panzergranate]

We have enough oil for over 500 years under Azerbijan alone, so why exactly do we need to make crude oil again??.

Since the Azerbujan oil fields were discovered, a few years ago, OPEC has been worried as the Azerbijan government stated that they have no intention of joining the OPEC cartel, and once they are finally connected up to the global oil exporting network (pipes still being laid through Turkey to the Mediterainian Sea), they'll flood the markets with cheap oil.

Because of this soon to be realised "nightmare", OPEC has been making their money whilst they still can, hence the artificially high oil price at the moment.

Over here, an economist pointed out that because of the current expensive shipping costs, it is now cheaper to open a factory in the UK to make something than to have a bunch of Coolies in the third world make it for a bowl of rice a day and have it shipped over.

UK geolegists pointed out, last week on TV, that Britain has only extracted less than one third of the North Sea oil so far and the remaining oil is good for about 200 years of production.

Like I pointed out earlier, why exactly do we need to make crude oil with bugs again??

[Nemesis]

Advantages of making your own oil:

1/ OPEC can't screw up the world by manipulating prices as is happening now and happened in the 70's

2/  These options discussed here today involve using at least partially materials that would otherwise be waste that must be disposed of at a price, instead they can be used to generate income.

3/ Distruibution costs are less because it isn't being shipped halfway around the world.

4/ Keep the money in your country not in others.

5/ Break the economic might of the terrorist backing countries (detailed discussion of this should be in Hot and Spicy).

6/ Since it is not being shipped as far there are fewer chances for the spills and resulting ecological damage.

Just off the top of my head.  Others I'm sure can come up with more ideas.

[Vipre]

I don't follow why they're planning to sell the Oil at $15 a barrel, it seems asinine. If they sell them at market price of at least $130 they can recoup the entire constrution cost of the plant in one year. Drop the price after that.

From the Article:

"This is our first-out plant, and we estimate we'll make oil at $15 a barrel. In three to five years, we'll drop that to $10, the same as a medium-size oil exploration and production company. And it will get cheaper from there."

I think that the keyword is MAKE.  If I am interpretting it right they are saying it will cost them $15 a barrel dropping to $10 as they refine the process and pay off the debts incurred in making it.  Likely they will sell at the market price which should drop as they build capacity. 

  I do believe you're correct, I read "make oil" to mean "sell", totally screwed the comprehension pooch on that one.

Advantages of making your own oil:

(or this tech specifically)

7/ May eventually lead to micro versions as residential garbage disposals.

It could create a whole new cottage industry. Imagine no more garbage pickup, instead a private company's collection truck comes around and picks up what you produce and cuts you a check each month.

[Panzergranate]

The thing is that straw is an important winter animal feed resource, so that is out for oil making.

However, grass cuttings can already be fermented to make Ethanol 85, as can other garden waste. Certain plant leaves are oil laiden and have natural flamability.

Local authorities could collect garden wastes, like they do here already for composting, and create revenue (thius reducing local comunity tax charges) with their own E85 to run their own trucks, cars, strimmers, lawnmowers, etc.

For the past decade or more, two stroke oil has ceased to be mineral based and is now synthetic, being made from plant materials. The result is that nobody has need to de-coke a two stroke exhaust system anymore and the US government lifted the ban on two stroke motorcycles just over 5 years ago, after scientists revealed that they are the cleanest of the internal combustions engines (negligable N2O emissions) when compared to the others.

A lot of oils, in automotive use, are not mineral (crude oil) based.... a lot are already plant based synthetics. Were talking hydraulic fluids (mineral oil buggers seals), two stroke oil (as mentioned) and some grades of engine and gear oils.

Castrol - R is made from Castor Oil.... which is made from Castoir plant seeds.

Then there are the plastics that are made from plant oils.... celophane anyone??

[Akira_Commander567]

God idea, but, I don't really care. The earth has been through many a natural disatsters, it can and will survive us. Even if we start nuking each other right now.

[Panzergranate]

There is always the option of seperating water into HO + H or Hydrogen Peroxide and Hydrogen.

The US millitary has converted a Hummer to run on Hydrogen Peroxide (HO) converting it directly from water just before it enters the fuel injection system.

During WW2 Hydrogen Peroxide was the popular fuel of choice for German jets and rockets. It has a greater energy value Kerosine, Avgas, Diesel or Petrol. However it does have a extremely hazardless side.... it spontaneously combusts on contact with anything organic (Carbon based).

This gives a problem with storing it and it is only with modern technology that converting H2O into HO + H moments before it is actually needed in a combustion engine.

In an automotive engine, the Hydrogen Peroxide burns the Carbon in the CO2 drawn into the engine from the atmosphere and the seperated Hydrogen combines with the Oxygen left over from the atmospheric CO2. This means that a water sourced Hydrogen Peroxide engine generates some of the water it converts from its own exhaust system.

Perhaps Hydrogen Peroxide is a possible future fuel, now that the storage hazard and need fir a factory to extract it has been solved.

[Akira_Commander567]

Duh, heck, it'll explode when it gets hit by a bullet, that's why many german pilots who died in their jets just from bullet hits and them crashing and blowing up on takeoff and landing.

[Tulwar]

The US millitary has converted a Hummer to run on Hydrogen Peroxide (HO) converting it directly from water just before it enters the fuel injection system.

So this is the legionary car that runs on water!  At least the process by which a car could run on water, I always wondered where that came from.  Converting water to HO on the spot certainly solves the storage problems!  You don't have to worry about it spontainously exploding.  Nasty stuff, what you buy at the drug store is only 2 percent.  Two problems:  How expensive is it to make a converter, and how could you charge people more for water?

[Kreeargh]

Link to full article

Inside LS9’s cluttered laboratory – funded by $20 million of start-up capital from investors including Vinod Khosla, the Indian-American entrepreneur who co-founded Sun Micro-systems – Mr Pal explains that LS9’s bugs are single-cell organisms, each a fraction of a billionth the size of an ant. They start out as industrial yeast or nonpathogenic strains of E. coli, but LS9 modifies them by custom-de-signing their DNA. “Five to seven years ago, that process would have taken months and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars,” he says. “Now it can take weeks and cost maybe $20,000.”

He means bugs. To be more precise: the genetic alteration of bugs – very, very small ones – so that when they feed on agricultural waste such as woodchips or wheat straw, they do something extraordinary. They excrete crude oil.

Unbelievably, this is not science fiction. Mr Pal holds up a small beaker of bug excretion that could, theoretically, be poured into the tank of the giant Lexus SUV next to us. Not that Mr Pal is willing to risk it just yet. He gives it a month before the first vehicle is filled up on what he calls “renewable petroleum”. After that, he grins, “it’s a brave new world”.

“Our plan is to have a demonstration-scale plant operational by 2010 and, in parallel, we’ll be working on the design and construction of a commercial-scale facility to open in 2011,” says Mr Pal, adding that if LS9 used Brazilian sugar cane as its feedstock, its fuel would probably cost about $50 a barrel.

If it can be done, even just supplementing exising supplies it would be useful.

Fuel at 50$ a barrel again is a total joke and con we all wish will happen and WILL NOT!  If i am wrong i plead someone come and shoot me in the head or beet me to death with a stick.
Good post  but there is no real attempt at helping us out on the cost of fuel! They sell all fuels by the BTU now not by the production/demand rate.  They have teamed up Environmental hacks and fuel company's they got $ in mind. Screw YOU / I all and make $ to boot.
 Do you see AL gore or any environmental hack saving fuel? He said hell no on changing his wastefull ways to congress but yet he promotes saving the planet on NBC . Nope they just pass the cost on to YOU higher fuel costs and food / everything costs "based on fuel " .
Hell what did that damn concert to save the planet cost in carbon emitions they don't talk about that they just bitch when they see a TRUCK delivering their food . Yea I'm sure I'm a Troll here but damnit  They don't comment when someone asks how many trucks it took to deliver all the concert crap or how many million$ diesel pusher motor homes delivering the Rich ass environmental hack music people was used. Or the cost period. Just YOU / I need to ride a bike to work so "they can drive there hummers and suvs".
The real goal it to con everyone in to believing they need YOU to pay up on a carbon emition tax,everyone will pay a tax based on the "carbon emitions"they put out {be it taking a shower and so called waisting water or driving a car}. "Yea they got the cost calculated now"
Hell there is 100 years of shale oil in colorado alone but guess what environmental hacks are stopping the mining even on private land and you all wonder why fuel prices are so high. Get Real people
In the USA alone there are over  500 years worth of oil and gas to be used but the Environmental hacks are stopping all of that. Even bio diesel in the USA is a con using Corn is wastefull and more costly to produce than any other bio diesel product,but because corn produces the most for the acre they use it and YOU and i Pay for it in taxes via farm bill. 
I believe in alternative fuels hell solar is the way to go 300 acres of solar panels could power all of California but guess what the select few cant proffit from it every day from solar so it wont exist until 2010/ 2012 like all the other "alternative fuels" they keep blowing out there a$$es.  This con is no diffrent than in 1996 it just has the media support now they got their $ to report the bullshi*. GE in 1910 produced an electric car that got 60 miles a charge  thats 1910 and what about the FLEET of 1995 electric ford Tauruses seting in the Arizona desert rusting and their is no improvement in electric tech GOD  the people have been coned.
 I build steel buildings and run a farm for a living i have felt and live in environmental change and in my opinion its the SUN getting hotter  and the planet's orbit is changing thats melting polar caps not YOU driving your car.  I am brown in about 2 months of being in the sun every day but my car caused that ? BULL SHI* Its 85 to 90 in the day and 32 at night and thats caused by exhaust from my car ??? Think about it  research it study it your self don't believe in media bullshi* or government bullshi*.

Sorry but i am a member of this community and i had to post my opinion on this.  i am a DEMOCRAT always have been and may change in 2009. .

[Centurus]

If i am wrong i plead someone come and shoot me in the head or beet me to death with a stick.

Ummm....can I shoot ya and beat ya to death right now?   

J/K

[Akira_Commander567]

I HATE DEMOCRATS!!!!!!!!!! I may be a kid, but democrats want to take away the second amendment and that will not happen in the South. At least not without a full scale civil war and I'd fight in it as well. Also, can I kill you with a tub of jello instead? Sorry, I've had a bad night with my neighbor firing his cannon for his birthday ALL night long, I haven't had any sleep for the last 48 hours and I can't sleep during the day. And for the matter of al gore, I say they're the biggest hypocrites the planet has known so I say we should kill'em and get it over with.

[Nemesis]

I HATE DEMOCRATS!!!!!!!!!! I may be a kid, but democrats want to take away the second amendment and that will not happen in the South. At least not without a full scale civil war and I'd fight in it as well. Also, can I kill you with a tub of jello instead? Sorry, I've had a bad night with my neighbor firing his cannon for his birthday ALL night long, I haven't had any sleep for the last 48 hours and I can't sleep during the day. And for the matter of al gore, I say they're the biggest hypocrites the planet has known so I say we should kill'em and get it over with.

  Please keep the Democrat - Republican civil war in Hot and Spicy, this is for the technical and scientific side only. 

[Centurus]

I HATE DEMOCRATS!!!!!!!!!! I may be a kid, but democrats want to take away the second amendment and that will not happen in the South. At least not without a full scale civil war and I'd fight in it as well. Also, can I kill you with a tub of jello instead? Sorry, I've had a bad night with my neighbor firing his cannon for his birthday ALL night long, I haven't had any sleep for the last 48 hours and I can't sleep during the day. And for the matter of al gore, I say they're the biggest hypocrites the planet has known so I say we should kill'em and get it over with.

  Please keep the Democrat - Republican civil war in Hot and Spicy, this is for the technical and scientific side only. 

Don't mind him Nem.  He's still a youngling.  Look, he's still under warranty.  *shows Nemesis the warranty tag on Akira*