Topic: OT...you know something always puzzled me in trek...

[Star Dragon]

*adds tangent fuel to the fire*

  I thought the Kelvens jacked the Ent in TOS and got them up to warp 17 or 18 for a short time...

 It was like crazy man!

[atheorhaven]

*adds tangent fuel to the fire*

  I thought the Kelvens jacked the Ent in TOS and got them up to warp 17 or 18 for a short time...

 It was like crazy man!

Yes, and "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" they also got up to ludicrous speed as well.

[knightstorm]

Writers do lots of stuff for drama that don't always make sense.  For instance, while Best of Both Worlds was an excellent piece of drama, when I look at it critically, I have to ask did the Borg want to get defeated?  They seemed to be bending over backwards to give the Feds chances.  Despite the fact that the borg were known to be capable of traversing distances far faster than anything the feds could hope for, the cube went slowly enough for the Enterprise to keep pace for a short time.  When they needed the cube to slow down so they could do the deflector blast, the Borg decided to completely ignore the away team that was on their ship until they destroyed the power conduits.  Again, despite its termendous speed capabilities, the borg stopped to destroy the fleet at Wolf 359 rather than bypassing them and going straight to earth.  once more they seemed to be moving relatively slowly compared to what they were known to be capable of.

[Vipre]

That might be attributable to the way they travel. The transwarp conduits were shown most notably in Voyager to be artificial constructs it could have easily been that the Borg came in through the nearest transwarp conduit and were restricted to normal warp speeds after. It wasn't that they didn't want to go faster but that they couldn't.

Just a guess though, the Borg became such a joke post TNG that anything's possible.

[knightstorm]

That might be attributable to the way they travel. The transwarp conduits were shown most notably in Voyager to be artificial constructs it could have easily been that the Borg came in through the nearest transwarp conduit and were restricted to normal warp speeds after. It wasn't that they didn't want to go faster but that they couldn't.

Just a guess though, the Borg became such a joke post TNG that anything's possible.

The cube had already been depicted as being easily able to outrun the Enterprise in conventional warp.  Also, why would the borg restrict access to systems like weapons, but leave what is essentially an off switch to the cube accessible?

[Pestalence_XC]

The warp scale has been adjusted with the TV series in relation to advancement in technology.

In TOS, the warp speeds were much different than Warp speeds in ST V which is much different than in ST : TNG, and somewhat different in Voyager (variable warp field by re-positioning the warp nacelles).

In TOS, according to the Star Trek Technical Manual (non canon BTW) it stated that the Enterprise had a max cruise speed of Warp 10, with Emergency capability of Warp 12 for short periods of time.. however to conserve the Matter and Anti-matter supply, Captains rarely took their ships over Warp 7 unless it was a dire emergency and even then were reluctant to approach Warp 10.. not because of reducing the ship to subspace molecules, but because the ship could be severely damaged by stress at those speeds.

The warp scale was adjusted in ST III and ST V with the Excelsior and the NCC-1701-a having Transwarp engines installed.. this created the Warp 10 barrier under the new scale. Warp 10, theoretically destroys the theory of relativity by making you exist everywhere and no where at all points in time all at the same time.. Reference the book ST : TNG : Vendetta.. a Bigger version of the Doomsday Machine locked itself in time and space across the universe while in subspace, stuck at a single moment in time that transcended time itself, both past and present.. to the normal universe, the ship went Pop and vanished.

so comparing Warp speed in Enterprise is comparing the Warp speed in TOS.. Warp 17 could be a possibility if the structural integrity of the ship could endure it.. Remember that in TOS, the enterprise was flung just a few seconds away from a planet that at Warp 8 would take several days to return.. the speeds the Enterprise was flung in just a few seconds must have been over Warp 20 by the TOS scale..

Now comparing Warp speed in TOS to Warp speed in TNG, then that is like comparing a Chevy to Ferrari.. There is no comparison.

[knightstorm]

The warp scale was adjusted in ST III and ST V with the Excelsior and the NCC-1701-a having Transwarp engines installed.. this created the Warp 10 barrier under the new scale. Warp 10, theoretically destroys the theory of relativity by making you exist everywhere and no where at all points in time all at the same time.. Reference the book ST : TNG : Vendetta.. a Bigger version of the Doomsday Machine locked itself in time and space across the universe while in subspace, stuck at a single moment in time that transcended time itself, both past and present.. to the normal universe, the ship went Pop and vanished.

so comparing Warp speed in Enterprise is comparing the Warp speed in TOS.. Warp 17 could be a possibility if the structural integrity of the ship could endure it.. Remember that in TOS, the enterprise was flung just a few seconds away from a planet that at Warp 8 would take several days to return.. the speeds the Enterprise was flung in just a few seconds must have been over Warp 20 by the TOS scale..

Now comparing Warp speed in TOS to Warp speed in TNG, then that is like comparing a Chevy to Ferrari.. There is no comparison.

I don't really want to get into an argument over which source of non-cannonical star trek material is more accurate, but the TNG technical manual states that Excelsior's transwarp was a failure and the ship was refitted with a more conventional warp drive.  However, the change did occur because decades of incremental improvements made the ships phenomenally faster.  Voyager stated that Warp 10 was infinite velocity.

[Star Dragon]

Pestalence, that was a very nice and clear explanation, thanks...

[KBF MalaK]

It's been 30+ years since I've seen the ST Tech manual, but I remember a few things:

Warp 1 is the speed of light
The Enterprise had a Maximum speed of warp 9.1 (warp 9 was listed as the emergency speed)THO i REMEMBER A COUPLE ORIG EPS WHERE ENT WENT TO WARP 9.4
Warp 10 was the theoritical speed limit (like the sound barrier was in the 50's)

Impulse speed is sublight, so max impulse speed would be close to warp 1 (assuming warp 1= 180,000 miles per second) at 1/4 impulse power the ship would be travelling 167,400,000 MPH- so that would be a little too fast for inside spacedock.

Since the B&B era all the usual trek science went out the window- they sacrificed science (or the trek version of it) for a good story (even the stories we're weak).

[marstone]

It's been 30+ years since I've seen the ST Tech manual, but I remember a few things:

Warp 1 is the speed of light
The Enterprise had a Maximum speed of warp 9.1 (warp 9 was listed as the emergency speed)THO i REMEMBER A COUPLE ORIG EPS WHERE ENT WENT TO WARP 9.4
Warp 10 was the theoritical speed limit (like the sound barrier was in the 50's)

Impulse speed is sublight, so max impulse speed would be close to warp 1 (assuming warp 1= 180,000 miles per second) at 1/4 impulse power the ship would be travelling 167,400,000 MPH- so that would be a little too fast for inside spacedock.

Since the B&B era all the usual trek science went out the window- they sacrificed science (or the trek version of it) for a good story (even the stories we're weak).

Maybe they have impulse power on a logrythmic scale sort of like the richtor scale for earthquakes.  So 1/4 impulse would be fairly slow not 1/4 the speed of light.  As you walk up the scale the speed picks up quickly.  Hey it could work.

[Vipre]

Maybe they have impulse power on a logrythmic scale sort of like the richtor scale for earthquakes.  So 1/4 impulse would be fairly slow not 1/4 the speed of light.  As you walk up the scale the speed picks up quickly.  Hey it could work.

That assessment would seem to be supported by the visuals from ST6 as the Enterprise was not travelling 46,500 miles/second as it exited the starbase doors.

Though does full impluse equal warp one to start with?

[KBF MalaK]

I've always been under the assumption (according to the tech manual) that full impulse was just shy of warp one. i.e. full impulse = .997 of warp 1.

But I read this long BEFORE the first film was even imagined, and before the B&B rewrite of the entire trek franchise.

[Lieutenant_Q]

According to Star Trek the Magazine.  They published a Warp Scale, and an Impulse Scale within them.

Full Impulse is 1/4 the speed of light, they explain that while faster speeds are possible at impulse, relativistic problems occur that prevent Starships from obtaining those speeds except in strange circumstances.

For Warp Speed, the system has supposedly been in place since Star Trek: The Motion Picture, although it was not official until TNG was being created.  Note that the Enterprise obtained Warp 7 in the Motion Picture.  And Warp 5 in The Wrath of Khan.  The Enterprise's speed was not mentioned in Search for Spock.  And the bird of prey hit Warp 9.9 in her slingshot maneuver in The Voyage Home.  The Voyage Home was filmed at the same time that beginning work on The Next Generation was being done, so that is usually the first movie to be considered as having the Warp 10 speed limit that The Next Generation imposed.

At one point in time I did a Regression Equation on the number included in the Magazine that accurately calculated Warp Speed in terms of the speed of light, at least up until it hit Warp 9.  After that the equation went fubar, because of the Warp 10 limit.  But from Warp 1 to 9 it is definitely an exponential equation.  I'll have to see if I can find that equation again.

One thing that throws it off though, they describe Warp Factors as how many Cochranes of power the field is generating.  A ship generating two Cochranes of energy is traveling at Warp 2.  It stands to reason though, that differing masses of ships would be traveling at different speed.  A Sabre-Class ship generating two Cochranes should be faster than a Galaxy-Class generating the same amount of power.  Unless something about the Subspace field generated by a Warp Field reduces the mass to a negligible difference.

[KBF MalaK]

This may be the article your referring to:
http://www.starshipdatalink.net/operations/impulse.html

You may also wanna see this chart-which shows the multipliers of c at different warp speeds- warp 7 would be 1,000 times the speed of light (or 1,000 times the speed of warp 1).
http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/startrek/impulse.html

I'll look at my old SFB manual (printed in 1981) for a pre-film description. IMHO the films are NOT canon, but I've already lost this argument on other trek sites, but I still maintain my opinion that NOTHING since is as good as the original.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Here's an interesting Pre-TNG look at Warp drive

Introduction to Navigation
Star Fleet Command Technical Publications Section  (c) 1980

Section 1.3 Warp Speeds

As Zefram Cochrane pointed out in 2053, actual warp speeds relative to the speed of light may be calculated by multiplying the warp factor cubed by a variable that acounts for the curvature of space in a fourth dimension by the presence of mass; subspace, a continuum in which a vessel under warp drive travels, is not curved in a fourth dimension, and therefore offers a linear "shortcut" between points in our galaxy.  This variable, called Cochrane's factor, and sometimes indicated by the greek letter chi, can be as high as 1,500 in dense dust and gas clouds and as little as 1 in the intergalactic void.  It is larger near massive objects such as stars and black holes, as space is curved around such objects to an even greater extent.  For practical reasons, warp drive is not used in the vicinity of massive objects, as the disproportionately high warp speeds tend to produce a "slingshot effect," catapulting a starship out of the space-time continuum altogether.  Between galaxies, where negligible matter exists, space is not perceptibly curved, and the short cut afforded by Cochrane's factor dissapears.  Warp speeds attain their "ideal" (W_f³ x c = v) values, and the transit time to the Andromeda galaxy becomes thousands rather than hundreds of years.

-----

Later on they give the chi value as being 1292.7238 as being the average value of Cochrane's factor within Federation Space.

The book is really an interesting read.  it goes on to describe arrival and departure regulations in regards to entering a busy star system.  Also lists planets mentioned or visited by the Enterprise during her three years on the air.  Included with the book was two poster size star charts with charts front and back.  Highlights include the Romulan Neutral Zone, last known locations of lost starships Intrepid, Constellation, Valiant, Archon, and Defiant.  The paths of Rejac, Nomad, and the Botany Bay.  Also included, is the borders of the Tholian Assembly, Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, and the Kzinti Patriarchy.

[KBF MalaK]

I'll just stick this here until I look thru the errata for the SFB 'cadets manual':
Below taken from the SFB Cadets Manual page 3-
SPEED: A speed of one hex per turn equals the speed of
light. A speed of eight hexes per turn equals Warp 2 (8 times the
speed of light). A speed of 27 hexes per turn equals Warp 3 (27
times the speed of light). Starships do not fight at faster speeds
due to the high power requirements

Each hex represents an area
10,000 kilometers or a bit more than 6,000 miles across

This does NOT equate properly to the chart posted here:
http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/startrek/impulse.html

...but I'll do the math when I'm sure the errata doesn't contain corrections to the above info.

Also IIRC the max speed for a ship in SFB was 31 hexes per turn, and the Romulan Plasma Torpedo speed is 32 hexes per turn- so that would mean a Rommie Plasma torpedo moves faster than warp 3- this makes NO sense to me but we'll see what the numbers come out to.

[Czar Mohab]

Allow me to post this link, might be helpful. I don't remember how, when, where I ended up, or how long I was at it, but I daisy-chained around several (read: at least 20) websites one night looking for a warp factor scale (to work on fan fic with). Needless to say, most of the equations I stumbled upon revolved around the two (well, 4 since both are solved for speed/velocity) near the bottom of the page.

Czar "Click HERE" Mohab