Topic: Is there a way to make a Carrier use both Fighters and PF's?

[Magnum357]

I need a little help here, if it is even possible.  I'm working on a personal mode and I want to add Battle Control Ships.  If you don't know what they are, in SFB, they are basically BCH's converted to use both Fighters (6 Fighters) and a Flotila of Interceptors/PF's.  I have no trouble adding either one to a ship since you simply "swap" the ship to a Race Slot that can ethier use Fighters or PF's (example, If you want a Fed Ship to use Interceptors, copy the Fed ship into a Race Slot that uses INT/PF's and copy the Interceptors into the same Race slot aswell). 

But unfortunetly, when I try to add in these BCS's, They can either launch the Fighters or just the PF's.  I can't seem to figure out a way for the BCS's to use both the Fighters and PF's in the same battle.  Is there anyway script the shiplist files to make it where the BCS's to use both, or is this not possible?

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I don't know. It sounds like it should be possible, because regular carriers always have shuttles and some kind of fighter. Maybe you can only have a maximum of 2 types of shuttles and fighters in one bay? Like instead of having shuttles and fighters or shuttles and PF's, you could have fighters and PF's (but no shuttles).

[marstone]

right now, I believe the answer is NO.  Either fighters or PF's.  Hopefully in SFC$ we will get both.

[Tulwar]

Definity not.  Every race either gets fighter or PF; nobody gets both.  Check out BattleClinic.  Rocket Rod made a mod that allows every race to use both PF tenders and carriers.  He found a way to trick the game into doing that much.

[Magnum357]

Ill give the "no shuttle" thing a try and see if that works.  I don't know who Rocket Rod is, but it sounds like he was able to make all races have PF Tenders and Carriers, but not Battle Control Ships, which have both Fighters and PFs.

What is SFC$?

[KBF-Crim]

Ill give the "no shuttle" thing a try and see if that works.  I don't know who Rocket Rod is, but it sounds like he was able to make all races have PF Tenders and Carriers, but not Battle Control Ships, which have both Fighters and PFs.

What is SFC$?

Heh...SFC$ is a typo...he meant SFC4...

[Rod ONeal]

Ill give the "no shuttle" thing a try and see if that works.  I don't know who Rocket Rod is, but it sounds like he was able to make all races have PF Tenders and Carriers, but not Battle Control Ships, which have both Fighters and PFs.

What is SFC$?

The way I did SCSs was to have the ships carry the PFs and the PFs carry the fighters. Best that it could be done with the game as it is.

[The Postman]

yes, it can be done. Move the pf's to the regular ship list and add the fighters to the PF. Right now I have 2 ships in my list that have 4 Pf's each and 56 interceptor fighters. Each PF has 2 groups of 3 fighters and 2 groups of 4 fighters times 4 Pf's.

[marstone]

yes, it can be done. Move the pf's to the regular ship list and add the fighters to the PF. Right now I have 2 ships in my list that have 4 Pf's each and 56 interceptor fighters. Each PF has 2 groups of 3 fighters and 2 groups of 4 fighters times 4 Pf's.

BUt doing that gives you no direct control of the fighters, and what happens to the fighters when the pf that spawned them gets blown up?

Now other then that, FiCon's are a way around it (except for the logic of how can a little PF carry 14 fighters and have any weapon space left, and still be a size 6 ship)

[Tulwar]

The game will let you do all sorts of stupid stuff.  There is nothing preventing you from changing the size class and hull type of a BB, so the computer thinks it's a PF.  You buy a frigate tender, then go into spacedock, then buy four battleships.  Heck, I bet you could put any old ship in the fighter bay of a PF tender.  Could you imagine a cascade when you place PF tenders on a PF tender?  Every turn, your numbers would grow exponentially until you exceed your computer's resources!

I don't know why Taldren required the empires to have fighters or PF's, but they did a really good job of keeping modders from making Klingon PF's or Gorn fighters.  In any case, the stock fighter system is crap.  Should SFC4 come into being, I'm sure that the entire system will be redone.

[Panzergranate]

Just do what folks do in SFB.... run a Battle Tug with 1 x CVA Pod and 1 x PF Tender Pod.

It works for a lot of folks, including myself, even in SFC.

[marstone]

The game will let you do all sorts of stupid stuff.  There is nothing preventing you from changing the size class and hull type of a BB, so the computer thinks it's a PF.  You buy a frigate tender, then go into spacedock, then buy four battleships.  Heck, I bet you could put any old ship in the fighter bay of a PF tender.  Could you imagine a cascade when you place PF tenders on a PF tender?  Every turn, your numbers would grow exponentially until you exceed your computer's resources!

I don't know why Taldren required the empires to have fighters or PF's, but they did a really good job of keeping modders from making Klingon PF's or Gorn fighters.  In any case, the stock fighter system is crap.  Should SFC4 come into being, I'm sure that the entire system will be redone.

It is my main push for a revamp of the fighter system.  Everyone seems to have a pet area, I favor the fighters/PFs.  I so want it to be correct I shall push, push, push.  Heck if they don't want to touch it, I would try a hand at it (studying up on my directX and C++ under visual C++)

[Magnum357]

I see.  I did not know that the game system would allow FiCon's.  Adding Fighters to PF's might be my only solution because I tried the "no shuttles" attempt and all it did was not allow ANY fighters or PF's to be selected.

The only problem with using FiCons, as stated above, is you don't have a lot of control over them.  Not sure if you can send them back to the PF's to be rearmed, right?  I guess its better then nothing.

[Tulwar]

BTW, when I say the entire fighter system is crap, well, I mainly mean the fighter list.  I'm sure this was a thankless job for Taldrenite who did it.  When I altered mine in OP to though in some X-Fighters, I started to change the whole thing.  The tedium quickly overcame me, especially because I didn't really know what I wanted to do with it.  There was also a lack of appropriate weapons.  Putting a plas-F on an ISC fighter was way too much firepower.  Perhaps if they fix the fighter plas-D, then putting 2 on a fighter would be "way too much" plus 50%.  The main problem I had was figuring out how to just make fighter dangerous without going overboard.  How do you make a top-notch four fighter squadron that merely holds its own with a Lyran PFE?  You have to keep the game balanced!

One major problem with fighters is stting the speed.  SFB used a trick with "warp booster packs."  They were the Star Trek equivalent of drop tanks.  They doubled the speed of a fighter, so a very fast fighter (speed 15) could catch up with a starship.  They were such a liablity that the player was encouraged to drop them before being fired upon.

Because of real time nature of SFC, meticulous control of figher groups is impossible, well, without leaving your carrier in the hands of the Artificial Idocy (AI).  Also, the limitted control factor makes handling fighters in squadrons absolutely necessary.  This limits the effect of crippling fighters.

Writing this out has given me some ideas for adpting SFB fighters for SFC.  Ah, the tedium....

I just looked at the fighterlist in Quattro.  The fighters are all way to fast and have way too many damage points.  Many don't carry enough weapons.  No wonder they don't play nice!  Then again, I remember they died way too quick when I played Hydran.  I think they adjusted the AMD since then.  I just wish I knew how their weapons worked.  I don't think they are the same as ship weapons.  Maybe I'll work something out.  I've got a lot better things to do right now.

[marstone]

BTW, when I say the entire fighter system is crap, well, I mainly mean the fighter list.  I'm sure this was a thankless job for Taldrenite who did it.  When I altered mine in OP to though in some X-Fighters, I started to change the whole thing.  The tedium quickly overcame me, especially because I didn't really know what I wanted to do with it.  There was also a lack of appropriate weapons.  Putting a plas-F on an ISC fighter was way too much firepower.  Perhaps if they fix the fighter plas-D, then putting 2 on a fighter would be "way too much" plus 50%.  The main problem I had was figuring out how to just make fighter dangerous without going overboard.  How do you make a top-notch four fighter squadron that merely holds its own with a Lyran PFE?  You have to keep the game balanced!

One major problem with fighters is stting the speed.  SFB used a trick with "warp booster packs."  They were the Star Trek equivalent of drop tanks.  They doubled the speed of a fighter, so a very fast fighter (speed 15) could catch up with a starship.  They were such a liablity that the player was encouraged to drop them before being fired upon.

Because of real time nature of SFC, meticulous control of figher groups is impossible, well, without leaving your carrier in the hands of the Artificial Idocy (AI).  Also, the limitted control factor makes handling fighters in squadrons absolutely necessary.  This limits the effect of crippling fighters.

Writing this out has given me some ideas for adpting SFB fighters for SFC.  Ah, the tedium....

I just looked at the fighterlist in Quattro.  The fighters are all way to fast and have way too many damage points.  Many don't carry enough weapons.  No wonder they don't play nice!  Then again, I remember they died way too quick when I played Hydran.  I think they adjusted the AMD since then.  I just wish I knew how their weapons worked.  I don't think they are the same as ship weapons.  Maybe I'll work something out.  I've got a lot better things to do right now.

One way I was looking at doing the WBP for fighters is to make three versions of them.  One with the base speed (no booster pack), one with the full double speed and half damage points (booster packs on), and a third to balance the middle, 50% speed increase, 3/4 damage points (fudge since you can't drop packs, this would be a choice if you want faster but not as vulnerable fighters).

[Rod ONeal]

I see.  I did not know that the game system would allow FiCon's.  Adding Fighters to PF's might be my only solution because I tried the "no shuttles" attempt and all it did was not allow ANY fighters or PF's to be selected.

The only problem with using FiCons, as stated above, is you don't have a lot of control over them.  Not sure if you can send them back to the PF's to be rearmed, right?  I guess its better then nothing.

It's nowhere near perfect. It's cool to use though, IMO. You can't send the fighters back to the PF, but when you land the PF the fighters disappear (like the carrier was destroyed) and when you relaunch the PF it's reloaded with fresh fighters again.

[Tulwar]

One way I was looking at doing the WBP for fighters is to make three versions of them.  One with the base speed (no booster pack), one with the full double speed and half damage points (booster packs on), and a third to balance the middle, 50% speed increase, 3/4 damage points (fudge since you can't drop packs, this would be a choice if you want faster but not as vulnerable fighters).

Your third option is exactly what came to mind!  Take the Fed F-15, same weapons, set the speed to 23, and damage to 8.  Of course, you would also alter the shiplist to put the appropriate number on the carrier.  Too bad you can't do that for PF's.  Taldren imposed a 2/3 number on squadrons and floatillas: fighter from 12 to 8, PF's from 6 to 4.  That made sense in the days of Pentium II's with 64MB Ram and a 10GB HD.  The game still takes forever to load, but that's another topic.

I wonder why we didn't scream holy (Hades) back before Taldren concieved Orion Pirates.  I guess we were too busy having fun.  Now you've got a couple of Dynaverse servers for which finding the special files for them is a pain, and if you can get on GS, I take my hat off to you.

[marstone]

One way I was looking at doing the WBP for fighters is to make three versions of them.  One with the base speed (no booster pack), one with the full double speed and half damage points (booster packs on), and a third to balance the middle, 50% speed increase, 3/4 damage points (fudge since you can't drop packs, this would be a choice if you want faster but not as vulnerable fighters).

Your third option is exactly what came to mind!  Take the Fed F-15, same weapons, set the speed to 23, and damage to 8.  Of course, you would also alter the shiplist to put the appropriate number on the carrier.  Too bad you can't do that for PF's.  Taldren imposed a 2/3 number on squadrons and floatillas: fighter from 12 to 8, PF's from 6 to 4.  That made sense in the days of Pentium II's with 64MB Ram and a 10GB HD.  The game still takes forever to load, but that's another topic.

I wonder why we didn't scream holy (Hades) back before Taldren concieved Orion Pirates.  I guess we were too busy having fun.  Now you've got a couple of Dynaverse servers for which finding the special files for them is a pain, and if you can get on GS, I take my hat off to you.

I have been working on my shiplist for a ISC pacification campaign, it will have full fighter squadrons.  Ships will have ther right fighters on them.  Only rule people may not like is you have to stay with the fighters that come with the ship, you can replace them, but can't change types (until the complement the carrier carries is updated for the year, thus enforcing that you don't carry all hellbore fighter, or the best out there).

[Magnum357]

It's nowhere near perfect. It's cool to use though, IMO. You can't send the fighters back to the PF, but when you land the PF the fighters disappear (like the carrier was destroyed) and when you relaunch the PF it's reloaded with fresh fighters again.

I tried making the FiCons for my shiplist, but for some reason, when I launch the PF's, they only launch 1 Figther for each FiCon.  I don't know why but it won't launch more then 1 Fighter (I have it set for them to launch 2 or 3 Fighters Per FiCon).  Any ideas why I can't get more then 1 fighter per FiCon?  This may not be the greatest solution, but its better then nothing for Battle Control Ships.

[Rod ONeal]

It's nowhere near perfect. It's cool to use though, IMO. You can't send the fighters back to the PF, but when you land the PF the fighters disappear (like the carrier was destroyed) and when you relaunch the PF it's reloaded with fresh fighters again.

I tried making the FiCons for my shiplist, but for some reason, when I launch the PF's, they only launch 1 Figther for each FiCon.  I don't know why but it won't launch more then 1 Fighter (I have it set for them to launch 2 or 3 Fighters Per FiCon).  Any ideas why I can't get more then 1 fighter per FiCon?  This may not be the greatest solution, but its better then nothing for Battle Control Ships.

Magnum,
I did the SCS/BCS ficon thing in my "fighter and pf mods" You might try DLing one of them (either OP or EAW depending on the game you are using) and look at the shiplist and fighter list.

You might try using one of the mods and just adjust the specs to your liking. It would be easier than starting from scratch.

Here's a link @ Battleclinic. I hope it helps.

http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/dock/3276-Fighter-PF-Mods-for-SFC2EAW-details.html#3276