Topic: How does a Tholian Web work?

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I've done some snooping of those SFB tourney tactics articles, and the Tholians really sound nifty. Unfortunately, their web never made it into SFC, but I have played as them in the SFB OP mod. They are a lot of fun to fly.

Intrigued about the web, I tried to look online for rules, but could find none. In some articles, it sounded like the web could be projected between the Tholian and the other ship, making the enemy keep its distance. All I can find is stuff about Web Casters, Snares, and Web Fists. Could an SFB vet explain how these work? Also, how does the average Archeo-Tholian and Neo-Tholian compare to the other galactic empires?

If we hopefully get the OP source, maybe having a fully-functional Rockhead race would be possible.

[Bonk]

Glad you liked them in SFB-OP. (Thanks Brez! )

Its been a while for Thols, but my old buddies got so good with plasma (roms) and disruptors (klingon) that I had to resort to thols. Mostly against Rom plasma.

Only the NeoThols have web casters.... uh lets back up a sec.

Traditional web takes some time to setup. (I seem to recall BPV equivalents for web setup before the scenario started...)

It could only be laid between anchor points. (Stationary Tholian ships, asteroids and later web anchors.) It took a great deal of energy and thus could only be laid slowly (about 4 hexes per turn from a PC as I recall). Web generators were used to lay web traditionally.

What's great about web is that enemy phasers could not shoot through it (or were strongly attenuated) where it did not affect the Tholian phaser fire. It also reduced enemy movement considerably should they try to come through it, and did some damage when they hit it if over a certain speed)

How much it slowed movement (including seeking weapons) and attenuated phaser fire depended on the web strength, which depended on the energy used to lay it.

It also lost strength over time, but a thol ship could move into a web hex and add additional power, left unattended they would dissipate.

I was a menace with the neo tholians though, the web caster could shoot a string of web out to a distance on any straight line in range (again strength was energy dependent) It could be 1-5 hexes, with strength proportional to length. My favourite trick was against seeking weapons, shoot the web along their tracking axis to slow them down as much as possible (often killing plasma altogether) then whizzing by and shooting a smackload of phaser 1s through the web at my enemy while he was left there completely neutered and helpless, it was great! Then use the plenty of labs and phaser 3s while skimming the web to make sure the most dangerous seeking weapons did not get through.

Cast web did not require anchors but could not be reinforced. Though it could also be used to cast web between anchors as well, which could be reinforced.

I got banned from flying Thols after a while, no one could beat them.

The web fist is the equivalent of plasma bolts, you could fire a web caster as a direct fire weapon, with a little more damage than a disruptor and a little shorter range. (It served as a fifth disruptor when there was no opportunity to use the webcaster)

The other thing I liked about thols was you could mix and match photon and disruptor ships, and they all bristled with insane amounts of phaser 1s to fire through web.

Then there's the pinwheel (didn't usually work out).

I used to like the Thol DN (something like 15 phaser 1s) with a neo thol cruiser or two with web casters, and a couple of light cruisers and maybe a couple PCs(frigate) to use up extra BPV. This fleet was nearly undefeatable.

I'm sure I've missed stuff but that's the basic rundown.

Oh yeah, the phaser arcs... LF+L and RF+R... stay off the centerline! You could fly it like a Hydran Dragoon running away zig-zag style and firing full loads of phasers off each flank.

I liked flying Thols a lot, until I got too good with them, then it was no fun for my opponents.  (Dontcha love my modesty?)

Edit: oh right, snares... I'm not 100% but I think the idea was they could drop a hex or two of unanchored web like a mine, great for evading seekers or just running away, I don't think I used them much as I usually devastated and demoralised the enemy on the first pass! 

Think of web as portable terrain with benefits.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Thanks for the in depth response, Bonk. Sounds a little like Klingon, taking disruptor and phaser shots when possible, huh? I like it-- it's like guerilla warfare, and keeping the range open. I'm jealous now, these things look so much fun 

[marstone]

  They could be fun, but the web would be a hard thing to program and then use in combat, I would figure trying to pick out where to throw the web and have it work out right would be tough in real time.  The old style Tholions on the other hand with static webs might be easier to add.

[Beeblebrox]

Would it be possible to simulate one version or another of the web device by stocking X number of plasma hard points on a Tholian ship and changing the plasma "ball of fire" into some other construct that looks "webby"?

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Would it be possible to simulate one version or another of the web device by stocking X number of plasma hard points on a Tholian ship and changing the plasma "ball of fire" into some other construct that looks "webby"?

Yeah, shouldn't be too hard to change the graphics. I remember that in SFB-OP, some ships had a Plasma-E launcher/Plasma Snare. Maybe this represented a combination of a web fist and the other types of web, that could be possible with the current OP engine?

[Bonk]

Closest thing I've seen is the hellbore texture used in UAW (attached). But you'll only get that effect with the hellbore.

I had some missions of Karnak's with functional prototype simulations of web and dis-devs(andros).

Ah yes, here it is:

Andromedan "Deep Scan" will simulate displacement and Tholian tractor will simulate the web snare on Enemy Sweep Patrol. (as incentive to fly Thol or Andro)

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163348147.0.html

I think I have the right script attached, Thols were in the Korgath slot and Andros in the Prime slot.

[Panzergranate]

Don't forget the "Tholian Pinwheel"!!

Thinking about it, three cooperating players could possibly pull off a "Tholian Pinwheel" in SFC though the ship's positions would be a tad shaky so it wouldn't be very neat.

Each player faces nose out with the sterns of their ships as close as possible. We'll call thses ships A, B and C. Each ship is angled to point outwards at 120 Degrees to those either side of it.

Right now ship A tractors ship B, ship B tractors ship C and ship C tractors ship A.

Now only one ship will run its engines to move the formation, either A, B or C.

To an attacker, the ships now present the threat of forward weapons with their weaker flanks and sterns covered by the forward weapons of the other ships.

If you've ever seen Ants in a major battle with other Ants, they form loose rings to move in a similar manner.... asses in, pincers out.

A "Pinwheel" can be performed by other races with mainly forward firing weaponry with poor aft firing arcs, like the Klingons.

This takes some practice with other players.

It is disapointing that Webcasters and the Tholian Tractor Web never made it iinto SFC from SFB.... they probally just couldn't figure how to do it.

A lot of Tholian ships, including the ancient Neo-Tholian warships, had their Webcasters and Web Emitters repplaced with the more effective Disrupter, once the Tholians had analised and replicated salvaged Klingon technology. We always play Thloian ships with Disrupters on Web points, as this is a legitimate SFB refit.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

That pinwheel really sounds interesting. I've got to try it with 3 races all tractored together, like a Fed-Gorn-Lyran thing! Sounds like it would really teach good teamwork and communication, especially when you find out the hard way 

[Panzergranate]

It's a defensive tactic with Tholian T-PCs in SFB as what weapons these small ships have are mainly forward arc firing. By covering each other's asses, an attacker is always faced with at least the firepower of two ships.

Also only one ship is using power to move so the others can kill engines and divert power to shield reinforcement and weapons.

To change direction by more than 120 Degrees, the ship providing movement power cuts engines and the ship facing the required direction takes over.

The other advantages are that ships can transport personnel and spares between each other.

On the downside, WW, shuttles and cluster packs can't be launched.

We've had a Klingon warship tow another facing the other direction in a LAN game a few times now as a defence against Kzinti Drone salvoes.

I've never tried the pinwheel before and this thread just popped it into my head and the big question, "Could it be done in SFC in a game??"

Anyone managing to pull off a pinwheel kindly send in a picture to prove it!!

[RazalYllib]

Tholians played by a good player were tough, as long it was "realistic" and not bring the cheese please.
I could hold my own on nearly any equal BPV duel or fleet action in the day, though If I knew tholians in the picture in a fleeting situation-bring mauler or 2....much better punch.

Until the Neo-Tholians arrived, the only exclusive tech the thols had was web generator basically.
When the Neo's showed up (think rag tag fleet) those ships had Webcasters, but the funny thing is, thats ALL the webcasters they had, no one knew how to build new ones so they were uber rare (no legendary engineers for Tholians) , and barely played any role in the Gen War (N-T's had a couple scrapps after they showed IIRC)

See the Thols had this tiny problem, Tholia was a minor provincial capital, stuck in the backwoods of the Galaxy ruled by the Thols (who apparently were not the nicest beings to have in charge-think despots) when the revolution came.

Those in charge of that provincal captital had a bright idea to flee the ensueing chaos by dragging the planet with a fleet of PC's after all it had a small shipyard capable of producing PC hulls only. It turns out they made the right move and revolutionaries got even and made the Tholians in their home Galaxy extinct...but...when the winners dug through the rubble of the Galaxy- they were one provincal capital short on their obliterate list, they KNEW one got away, and started hunting...more about that in a bit.

The Tholians snuck into our galaxy a long time ago, well aware that they would be missed and hunted. The found what they thought would be a good hiding place. And it was for a very long time...Eventually Klingon, Fed, and Roms discovered they had an extra galactic neighbor that was decidely unfriendly, secretive,  and extra protective of what they choose to define as their space.

Now the general war presented it own set of problems, the thols didnt want to draw attention to itself and more than anything wanted to stay incognito. They sorta got drug into action-passively become allied with the "good guys" preventing a perma link up between Klingons and Romulans. They really wanted to be left alone and forgotton.

Anyhow, during this time the neo-tholians...a battle fleet following the "trail" left by their cousins, found em and though it was awkward at first (technically the Fleet Commander out-ranked the Provincial Capitals Administator) The Neo-Tholians asked for sancuary and things were happy happy joy joy in tholia for a while. Then the ISC ruin'd the party...though the webcaster was wonderful for breaking up echelons, and ISC learned to leave em alone...then the Andro's ruined the party again...just when the Tholians had begun to get a handle on web caster tech...eventually they would be able to reproduce it - on a limited scale in the X generations. Just in time tho-

One of the hunting partys of the revolting slave races in the tholians home galaxy (also following the trail) stumbled by chance on Hydrans first, they announced themselves as the Seltorian Hive. They apparently were pretty polite about it...asking Hydraxan the zagillianth had he heard of any beings like the Tholians?

Hydrans said sure...they went that away and gave em directions and off the Hive went...Klingon Space was in the way, and it wasnt pretty...the Seltorian make their way to Tholian who panic...litterally sh_tn bricks!...Hot Lava Bricks...!

They cry for help and the other races sort of pitch in to help.

That about is all the background info I have from memory.

A raid on a web secured area is painful... you have to embed yourself in the full strength web and destroy the ships (usually webtender) keeping it charged so you can eventually move through it....to next layer.....nasty.

I aways thought of the web as an UBER tractor effect, although with a variable strength. U had to expend + 1 movement points than the strength of the web to pass. The max strength was 32 making it impassible unless weakened.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Thanks for posting the background info, ever since "The Tholian Web," this race has interested me. It seems like if the Tholians/Neo-Tholians had the same amount of forces and resources as the other empires, they would kick butt!

[Bonk]

Anyone managing to pull off a pinwheel kindly send in a picture to prove it!!

The ruleset is not really in OP but this is probably as close as you'll currently get (from SFB OP 04):

[Panzergranate]

The "Tholian Pinwheel" is probally the toughest formation for an opponent to break.... even a Klingon player!!

Now here's the next question.... has anyone managed to break up a "Tholian Pinwheel" in SFB or come close??

Now that RIS Mace has proved that it can be done in SFC OP, folks will probally be interested in how deal with it , if it is possible.

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Credit to Bonk for proving that a pinwheel can be done in SFC 
With SFC 4, I'm really optimistic that the Tholians will make it in, and this tactic could become as common as a starcastle. Then we are in trouble!

[Klingon Fanatic]

Credit to Bonk for proving that a pinwheel can be done in SFC 
With SFC 4, I'm really optimistic that the Tholians will make it in, and this tactic could become as common as a starcastle. Then we are in trouble!

SENSE OF HUMOR ALERT!

For those of us playing at home and having trouble following this...

The SFB Tholian Pinwheel MODEL was made by Brezgonne. Bonk is showing in his pictures that MODEL not an actual formation/manuever between three Tholian ships. Bonk can shrink his total SFB OP package by about 20MB IIRC if if he combines all of Brezgonne's Tholians into one folder and adds some of the Ultimate TOS models to the Fleeetdock 13 folder. This should also get rid of the missing texture problem that can be sen on the Pinwheel Models in the above pictures.

Well done Bonk!

KF

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

Oh no, I've been tricked! And I was wondering how there weren't any tractor fx in the shots.

[Panzergranate]

Been practicing with Klingon ships on LAN but can only manage shaky formations at best.

We do use the "towing a ship by it's tail" tactic when making tactical withdraws (Klingons don't retreat from battle of course) in some of our LAN Klingon versus Kzinti campaign as a defence against incoming Drones. Those Kzinti players sure do become pissed when we malkie a few possible pursuerswarships or freighters.

Generally the tactic allows at least one ship to bring all the forward firepower to bare on the following enemy.

The towing ship needs to divert all power to the aft shield(s) and even drop the forward shields, if safe, for that extra point or so of power.